No one is allowed to amass excessive wealth?

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As for the laborers at Cessna or Gulfstream… there are plenty of other jobs than building multimillion dollar aircraft which guzzle thousands of gallons of fuel per flight.
Wow. The unionized workers at Kansas aircraft plants have been in serious contract negotiations with management. But I’ll just let them know that they need to quit their jobs and go do something else entirely.

Even the generally pro-Obama newspaper was outraged with his jet bashing.
 
But now let us turn to Wal-mart where the executive class makes well over 1 million dollar a year in salary PLUS a lucrative pension plan, health care and dental care benefits. The average Wal-mart associate makes about 10 dollars an hour. In contrast the average aviation worker makes about 19 dollars an hour while the averaage aviation executive makes about 250K a year. Do you see the difference here? The executives in the Walmart industry make about 2 to 5 times the salary that aviation executives make while the employees of aviation corporations make double that of a walmart associate.

This is where wealth tramples on human dignity and should rightly be condemned. The solution is a constitutional amendment gauranteeing workers the right to collectively bargain for wages and benefits. Let the average Wal-mart Associate collectively bargain to make 15 dollars an hour and receive the same pension and benefit plans the executives receive. Then justice is served and when the contract ends a new one is negotiated. After all this is how it works in the aviation industry.

David
Of course, let Wal-Mart workers collectively bargain for what every pay and benefits they are able to obtain. And if they double their pay and benefits with a new contract, fine. But let us not then complain if there are fewer jobs to be had at WalMart, or if the new pay and benefits package discriminates against the very neediest workers–those who went to bad schools and those with lower skills, because they’ll be out of a job, and there will be fewer jobs available.

And should workers in any company be forced to start or join a union even if they don’t want to?
 
David,

I believe workers already have federal rights to organize in ALL states. An employer is subject to big federal fines if they are found to have fired somebody for joining a union, IIRC.

Are you really demanding that all workers be FORCED to join a union (and pay dues, and see that union promote certain politicians, etc). That’s pretty different. Do elaborate.
There are also federal laws against age discrimination in all 50 states in the workforce subject to big fines if violated. How is that working for the workforce of age 45+? The laws that are in place have no teeth. YES I propose that all workers be “forced” to collectively bargain for their wages and benefits. And if companies use any kind of tactics to intimidate workers, even a hint of them then they will be subject to enormous fines and federal prosecution at the highest level of management, even if that CEO had no knowledge such practices were happening in his company. He is responsible to prevent it and promote collective bargaining. Management and owners have their best interests. Workers have their best interest. Together, they can negotiate a contract that is in evryones best interest and the government can see to it that collective bargaining is ENFORCED.

David.
 
I wanted get some thoughts on a statement that I came across while researching the topic of Catholic social justice:

“People have a right to economic initiative and private property, but these rights have limits. No one is allowed to amass excessive wealth when others lack the basic necessities of life.

I find that quote quite disturbing since I cannot find any corroborating teaching in the Catechism 2419 -2436 or 2443 – 2449 or in POPULORUM PROGRESSIO that the Catholic Charities Office of Social Justice in St. Paul, Minnesota cites as a justification.

I’d love the have someone tell me what I am missing here.

Have a Blessed Day!
Have you met rich people? I think its safe to say that its impossible to amass a large sum of money without making money your god. There may be exceptions to the rule but they will be very few. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication to make a lot of money, and basically it puts your focus into making money than doing God’s work.
 
Why is there all this talk about forcing people to do things? Did Jesus force the rich man to give up his possessions and follow him? All this whining about rich people abusing money is ridiculous. If you have a problem with their stewardship go convert them and stop taking the “bank robber in nun’s outfit” approach. It’s pure and simple laziness is what it is. It’s easier to hold a gun to someones head to make them hand over their money rather than putting in the time and effort to convert them so that they willingly become good stewards of it.
 
Contarini
Furthermore, the point of laws taxing the rich to provide for the poor (the main way in which the principle under discussion is applied in our society) isn’t primarily to get the rich to cultivate virtue (in this case, it’s probably true that such laws will not have that effect), but to provide for the needs of the poor, which is one of the basic ethical mandates for society according to Scripture and Christian tradition.
davidmlamb
The popes do not condemned a welfare state unless that welfare state violates subsidiary
The State may tax in order to provide for its functioning, defence, necessary services and for infrastructure – it is not its main function to “provide for the needs of the poor.” The Welfare State is condemned clearly.

Vatican Bank President:
Without a true strategy for growth - which moreover is in contradiction to the tax levy itself – taxation in all its forms only permits further growth in public spending, inevitable if economic interventions are to be permitted in the absence of development. At a time like this, growth is obtained solely by the appropriate use of the available resources in order to benefit businesses that create wealth and sustainable employment, pay their taxes and thereby make absorption of the debt possible.
Ettore Gotti Tedeschi
August 27, 2011
tinyurl.com/4xggmw9

The reality from Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
#48. “Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis.

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”100

Fr Robert Sirico has examined this error in the U.S.A.
robertsirico.com/
Tuesday, May 31, 2011, by Fr. Robert Sirico
Not Whether to Help the Poor, But How

Extract:
“At the root of the incredulity and exasperation of some Catholics who mix fair arguments with vitriol is an incapacity to recognize that we really believe that many government programs aggravate rather than ameliorate poverty and other social ills. Rather than debating the prudence of the policies at hand, detractors resort to ad hominem attacks and pronounce anathemas selectively. Yet there is by this time a vast literature on the damage wrought by the war on poverty and its failure to achieve its goals. Such critics can continue to believe that shoveling government money into welfare programs discharges Catholic social teaching’s obligation to assist the poor if they wish, but their inability to see other views as reasonable, at least, is distressingly myopic.”
.
 
Let’s try this. Try to think like Francis of Assisi, Vincent de Paul, John Bosco or Mother Teresa and you will understand what this statement means. I have read all of the posts and the part that is missing is the theological understanding of the sentence, the papal writings that you’re quoting and the scripture. In essence, everyone is dancing around the subject and no one is hitting the nail on the head. Unless you think like the great saints of charity, you’ll never get it.

It’s so easy. The operative word here is “amass.” From the earliest days of the Church the word amass has had a very specific meaning. It’s English equivalent would be to horde. It does not mean that one is not allowed to be wealthy. If that were the case, the first to be condemned would be the Church. It is the wealthiest nation on earth, wealthier than the USA. It’s not mortgaged to China. 😃

Monks do not and never have made vows of poverty. They are encouraged to own property and to produce. Diocesan and other secular priests do not make vows of poverty. They are paid a salary and benefits for their work and are allowed to inherit from their parents and have other sources of income. They are paid according to their position, education and years of experience, like any other professional.

Would St. Francis, St. Vincent, St. John Bosco or Mother Teresa point their finger at monks, the Vatican, or a diocesan priest? No, absolutely not. Why not? Because, these people contribute to the welfare of society, especially the poor. They don’t amass wealth, even if they are very wealthy.

We have the example of some saints who were worth millions and used their wealth, power and influence for the good of the poor: St. Louis King of France, St. Elizabeth of Hungary, St. Thomas More, St. Katherine Drexel, St. John Baptist de La Salle and St. Francis of Assisi. Each, in his or her own way, used the material gifts that God gave him or her for the service of God’s people.

To amass wealth is to hold on to it as if it were one’s only source of security, when true security is in God. Many low income people suffer from the same lack of trust in God and place their trust in material wealth. What do they do? They lie, cheat and steal. To amass wealth is to hold on to the material, out of fear, rather than out of need. To amass wealth is to acquire wealth without a sense of responsibility. “To him who much is given, much will be asked in return.”

People like Mother Teresa, Francis of Assisi, John Bosco and Vincent de Paul, who gave their lives to live among the poor and for the good of the poor depended on the generosity of those who had wealth in order to take care of those whom they served. They did not hold having wealth against them. However, they did teach several things that we must remember.

Francis taught that one has to be careful that wealth can extinguish the spirit of prayer and increase our sense of hopelessness. Because all too often, a man of wealth will fear that he will be unable to live, if he loses it. He stops trusting in God’s Providence.

John Bosco reminded the people of his time that there were children in the streets of Italy who did not have a home, food, an education, while there were people who could help, but did not do so.

Vincent de Paul, would always remind people that those who say that they love God but ignore the needs of their brothers and sisters are liars. He never said that the wealthy could not be wealthy. He was indignant with those who turned their back on their brother who is poor. Vincent went even further. He knew that there were people who were scammers. He confronted those who were, when he caught them. However, he did not let the fear of being conned stop him from being charitable. At the end of the day, he did not have to answer for the sins of the other person. He only had to answer for his lack of charity.

Mother Teresa reminds us that we must learn to live simply, so that others may simply live. When she visited the USA for the first time, she was horrified. When Cardinal Cooke asked her what she thought of the USA, she said that there was more poverty here than in Calcutta. While the Indians lacked food, shelter, medicine and education, these were only material needs. Americans lacked compassion. She pointed out that people in the United States were lonely and many are ignored. It was very interesting, because when she was challenged with the fact that India has a cast system and that people with leprosy, AIDS and other diseases are considered untouchable and thrown into the streets, her answer was very simple. She said that this was true and it was sinful. However, the United States and Americans claimed to be more civilized and more knowledgeable than Indians; how was it possible that those who claimed to know better and be more civilized could be just as uncaring and unfeeling, when they have been given so much?

From a theological perspective, the issue is not about being wealthy, but about hording, indifference to those in need, not trusting in God’s providential care, not appreciating our material resources as gifts to be used for the common good, and wanting more than what we need, while others don’t have enough. At the end of the day, the issue is about being like Christ who fed the hungry and put aside his divinity to share in the poverty of our humanity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Of course, let Wal-Mart workers collectively bargain for what every pay and benefits they are able to obtain. And if they double their pay and benefits with a new contract, fine. But let us not then complain if there are fewer jobs to be had at WalMart, or if the new pay and benefits package discriminates against the very neediest workers–those who went to bad schools and those with lower skills, because they’ll be out of a job, and there will be fewer jobs available.

And should workers in any company be forced to start or join a union even if they don’t want to?
I won’t complain because none of the scary things you mention will happen as a result of unionizing Walmart. Infact, the exact opposite will happen. There will be apprentiship and training programs for the low skilled workers. The practice of keeping most Walmart workers at part time to save on paying benefits will end. More workers will be hired AND trained. The results will be more people will be able to purchase homes and cars, and buy other gods and services. The economy wil become vibrant again, the middle class will grow and be able to make charitable contributions instead of charitable organizations having to rely on the few wealthy to make to support and thus control them. Schools will also benefit since mom and dad are now making a lot more money and are now free to contribute to the local schools education benefits to improve class rooms. More parents will be able to volunteer their time at schools and churches and helping their children with their homework instead of having to work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the bills.

David
 
Why is there all this talk about forcing people to do things? Did Jesus force the rich man to give up his possessions and follow him? All this whining about rich people abusing money is ridiculous. If you have a problem with their stewardship go convert them and stop taking the “bank robber in nun’s outfit” approach. It’s pure and simple laziness is what it is. It’s easier to hold a gun to someones head to make them hand over their money rather than putting in the time and effort to convert them so that they willingly become good stewards of it.
Jesus did not force the richman to surrender his wealth but the conditions of surrendering his wealth was eternal life in heaven. The richman instead opted to keep his wealth and his eternal appointment with HELL. The Choice to remain selfish and disregarding the common good may be free but they are NOT FREE from conseqeunces. Hence we have the biblical example of the richman and Lazerus

David
 
I won’t complain because none of the scary things you mention will happen as a result of unionizing Walmart. Infact, the exact opposite will happen. There will be apprentiship and training programs for the low skilled workers. The practice of keeping most Walmart workers at part time to save on paying benefits will end. More workers will be hired AND trained. The results will be more people will be able to purchase homes and cars, and buy other gods and services. The economy wil become vibrant again, the middle class will grow and be able to make charitable contributions instead of charitable organizations having to rely on the few wealthy to make to support and thus control them. Schools will also benefit since mom and dad are now making a lot more money and are now free to contribute to the local schools education benefits to improve class rooms. More parents will be able to volunteer their time at schools and churches and helping their children with their homework instead of having to work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the bills.

David
All right! We can turn around the economy by forcing Wal-Mart to unionize! Why can’t Wal-Mart grasp tnis?

And if that will turn around the economy, let’s just unionize girls with lemonade stands as well, and require that they be paid a minimum wage. Or maybe not, since they are management, not employees.They must be capitalists. Let’s make them hire lemonade stand workers–unionized–who will be paid a living wage.

Sure, if it will turn around the economy, I’m all for it.

P.S.–and yet, I can’t help thinking of this black economist who thinks that the minimum wage causes unemployment! Here’s the interview. Maybe you and he should talk about this economic stuff.
 
I won’t complain because none of the scary things you mention will happen as a result of unionizing Walmart. Infact, the exact opposite will happen. There will be apprentiship and training programs for the low skilled workers. The practice of keeping most Walmart workers at part time to save on paying benefits will end. More workers will be hired AND trained. The results will be more people will be able to purchase homes and cars, and buy other gods and services. The economy wil become vibrant again, the middle class will grow and be able to make charitable contributions instead of charitable organizations having to rely on the few wealthy to make to support and thus control them. Schools will also benefit since mom and dad are now making a lot more money and are now free to contribute to the local schools education benefits to improve class rooms. More parents will be able to volunteer their time at schools and churches and helping their children with their homework instead of having to work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the bills.

David
I’ve worked at a Walmart and none of what you said makes any sense. We are were all trained for whatever position we were working at. None of the non-management positions required anything other than a high school degree if even that to be applicable for. Training was given after you were hired for whatever position you got and it was really not necessary. If you wanted to work your way up in the company you could. There were no mom’s and dad’s working in non-management positions unless you are talking about mom’s and dad’s with kids’ who are already out of the house. A cashier at Wal-mart is never going to make enough money to support a family, union or no union. Those positions are filled by high school and college age kids as well as older people who are just looking to make a little money on the side. Being a cashier at Wal-mart is not a career and should not be made out to be one. A union is just going to end up making the prices of products go up, and end up stealing jobs from the young and old.
 
Jesus did not force the richman to surrender his wealth but the conditions of surrendering his wealth was eternal life in heaven. The richman instead opted to keep his wealth and his eternal appointment with HELL. The Choice to remain selfish and disregarding the common good may be free but they are NOT FREE from conseqeunces. Hence we have the biblical example of the richman and Lazerus

David
So your going to save their soul by forcing them to give up their money haha? Could this get anymore ridiculous?
 
The bile of envy
davidmlamb, #29
The richman instead opted to keep his wealth and his eternal appointment with HELL. The Choice to remain selfish and disregarding the common good may be free but they are NOT FREE from conseqeunces. Hence we have the biblical example of the richman and Lazerus.
This foolish preoccupation with wealth obscures the real sins – pride and selfishness are the culprits. St Augustine effectively says “It was not Lazarus’ poverty that saved him, but his humility. Nor was it wealth that kept the rich man from bliss, but his pride and selfishness (Sermon 24,3).

“Catholic tradition has always had a balanced view of the responsibilities, temptations and opportunities of wealth, and it has never sought to canonize the poor or to demonize the rich. Catholic social doctrine, rather, calls all people to responsibility, generosity and holiness.” Inside The Vatican, June 1997].

Centesimus Annus, John Paul; II, 1991, #12:
“By defining the nature of the socialism of his day as the suppression of private property, Leo XIII arrived at the crux of the problem.
“…the Socialists encourage the poor man’s envy of the rich and strive to do away with private property, contending that individual possessions should become the common property of all…; but their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that, were they carried into effect, the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are moreover emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community."

By His parable of the Talents Jesus is not implying that anyone should seek wealth first in their lives. He is preaching and rewarding prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance, rather than attacking those who accumulate wealth legitimately, He is lambasting the slothful. In the Encyclical Letter *Sollicitudo Rei Socialis *(On Social Concerns), 1987, #42, Pope John Paul II emphasises “Likewise, in this concern for the poor, one must not overlook that special form of poverty which consists in being deprived of fundamental human rights, in particular the right to religious freedom and also the right to freedom of economic initiative.”
 
Contarini;8434337 said:
But of course that’s a straw man. We aren’t talking about private property itself, but about excessive wealth.

Your interpretation of St. John Chrysostom is convenient for your ideological purposes but lacks a rational basis. St. John does not suggest that the attitude to wealth he advocates is optional or that charity can somehow be separated from justice. That is a modern heresy.

Edwin

I don’t see how it’s a straw man argument. Pope Leo XIII equated private property and wealth in the same encyclical, It was his argument that the two need not be looked at as entirely separate entities. Common sense would seem to argue the same. So I’ll ask the question your argument ultimately leads to, should a person be forced to give up his private property? The clear answer from both Leo XIII and Blessed John Paul II is no.

My interpretation therefore of Saint John seems to me to be the only reasonable conclusion a Christian can draw. If Saint John was arguing for the right of a state to seize wealth or private property because charity compels it to, then the argument would be a de facto socialistic one because it would fall to the state to determine who or what benefits from the seized property, and what the word ‘charity’ means, that compels it to seize the property in the first place–an argument I can hardly believe Saint John would make. If however Saint John was arguing that an individual does not have the right to possess an excessive amount of private property, then that would still imply an external entity to make that determination, which is socialistic once again. Saint John therefore must have been compelling us toward an understanding of Christian charity, not a complete rule of social justice.
 
Wow. The unionized workers at Kansas aircraft plants have been in serious contract negotiations with management. But I’ll just let them know that they need to quit their jobs and go do something else entirely.

Even the generally pro-Obama newspaper was outraged with his jet bashing.
Would your position be that their labors are put to best use? I would say that I would rather see them employed at the same wage doing something of greater value to society, and to others. The turning point for me was, as a kid, coming across an email from my mom to the Bentley dealer, apologizing for not buying a car that month, because my dad thought that buying a jet and another car in one month showed signs of being “spendaholics”. She did offer the opinion that she didn’t want another dark colored vehicle, so for the dealer please to keep that in mind for next month. I was probably 12 years old.

I don’t know… would you say that spending 20 or 30 million dollars because you don’t like going through security at airports to be moral, keeping in mind what that money could do when put to other uses?
 
Have you met rich people? I think its safe to say that its impossible to amass a large sum of money without making money your god. There may be exceptions to the rule but they will be very few. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication to make a lot of money, and basically it puts your focus into making money than doing God’s work.
Precisely. Thanks for putting it so clearly and concisely.

That’s why traditionally the Church has fewer problems with hereditary wealth than with efforts to amass wealth–this goes against the grain of modern American thinking, of course.

Edwin
 
Precisely. Thanks for putting it so clearly and concisely.

That’s why traditionally the Church has fewer problems with hereditary wealth than with efforts to amass wealth–this goes against the grain of modern American thinking, of course.

Edwin
It can be inherited. Most people with wealth don’t do anything with most off their money. That seems sinful to me, when it could be put to good use.
 
Why is there all this talk about forcing people to do things?
Because there is a government. If you are a consistent anarchist/libertarian, then we can talk. If you aren’t, then it’s hard for me to take your question seriously. Governments “force” people to do things–that is, they make laws (hopefully for the common good) and support those laws with sanctions of some kind. In practice, however, the enforcement of law depends on societal consensus. So the language of “force” used by libertarians and quasi-libertarians (and thrown around freely on this forum) is a bit overblown.
Did Jesus force the rich man to give up his possessions and follow him?
Neither did Jesus wage war.

If you are a pacifist, again, I take your statement seriously. If you aren’t, then I don’t see how it’s remotely relevant. The traditional Christian position on government holds that civil authorities have the right (within limits) to coerce their subjects for the sake of the common good. I can respect a consistent, thorough-going challenge to that position–I see much merit in pacifist and “Christian anarchist” arguments. But if you grant government any authority at all, then you need to explain why you ask the questions above, because they don’t make any sense except from a radically pacifist/anarchist perspective.
All this whining about rich people abusing money is ridiculous.
Then much of the Bible is ridiculous.
If you have a problem with their stewardship go convert them and stop taking the “bank robber in nun’s outfit” approach.
I often hear this argument about abortion. What’s the difference? One involves killing people, the other doesn’t? Certainly outright murder is a much more serious issue than lesser forms of neglect and exploitation. But they are all offenses against the innocent and all violations of the common good. None of them are purely “private” issues.

Your argument seems to assume that taxation is theft. Do you hold this position consistently (i.e., you oppose all forms of taxation whatsoever)? Where do you find it in the Tradition of the Church?
It’s pure and simple laziness is what it is. It’s easier to hold a gun to someones head to make them hand over their money rather than putting in the time and effort to convert them so that they willingly become good stewards of it.
That’s an absurd argument. Again, try applying it to abortion or other forms of murder.

Edwin
 
I don’t see how it’s a straw man argument. Pope Leo XIII equated private property and wealth in the same encyclical
Where and in what terms?
It was his argument that the two need not be looked at as entirely separate entities
Vague. What do you mean by this? Of course they aren’t separate. Of course if I have any property at all, that’s some degree of wealth. But they aren’t identical. Pope Leo defends the right to private property in principle. You have not shown that he condemns all taxation whatever. Nor have you provided an argument distinguishing between just taxation and the kind you are using Pope Leo (illegitimately, in my opinion) to criticize.

To be honest, I think Pope Leo misinterpreted (or disagreed with) Aquinas on this, and I prefer Aquinas. But I respect Pope Leo’s authority as the successor of St. Peter, and I understand that members of the Roman Communion are bound to do so far more than an Anglican such as myself 🙂
Common sense would seem to argue the same. So I’ll ask the question your argument ultimately leads to, should a person be forced to give up his private property?
All taxation “forces” people to give up some of their private property. Whether or not you think all taxation is theft, I see no evidence that Pope Leo or any other representative of the Catholic Magisterium has ever taken such a position. Clearly he isn’t saying that people have a right to keep everything they have earned. Hence, your argument is illegitimate. No one is talking about abolishing private property altogether.
My interpretation therefore of Saint John seems to me to be the only reasonable conclusion a Christian can draw. If Saint John was arguing for the right of a state to seize wealth or private property because charity compels it to, then the argument would be a de facto socialistic one because it would fall to the state to determine who or what benefits from the seized property, and what the word ‘charity’ means, that compels it to seize the property in the first place–an argument I can hardly believe Saint John would make.
Historical evidence does not depend on your credulity. Nor was St. John Chrysostom aware of his duty to agree with a 19th-century Pope.
If however Saint John was arguing that an individual does not have the right to possess an excessive amount of private property, then that would still imply an external entity to make that determination, which is socialistic once again. Saint John therefore must have been compelling us toward an understanding of Christian charity, not a complete rule of social justice.
Only “must” if you think that St. John had to agree not only with Pope Leo but with your interpretation of Pope Leo and with your analysis of the logical connection between the relevant ideas.

I see no reason to think that St. John was aware of any of these duties.

I think a more reasonable Catholic response is that St. John Chrysostom is not, in himself, the Magisterium, but one very great bishop and preacher of the early Church. His teachings–like those of St. Thomas Aquinas, which are also more “socialist” than those of Pope Leo according to most scholars–need to be taken seriously as part of the Tradition, along with the somewhat more pro-capitalist position of Pope Leo (Pope Benedict, it seems to me, has moved back toward a more “socialist”–and in my opinion more traditional–position, as testified by the wails of frustration emanating from George Weigel’s general direction in the wake of Deus Caritas Est). However, you have to twist even Pope Leo pretty far to get him to justify the quasi-libertarian, ultra-capitalist position common these forums.

Edwin
 
I won’t complain because none of the scary things you mention will happen as a result of unionizing Walmart. Infact, the exact opposite will happen. There will be apprentiship and training programs for the low skilled workers. The practice of keeping most Walmart workers at part time to save on paying benefits will end. More workers will be hired AND trained. The results will be more people will be able to purchase homes and cars, and buy other gods and services. …
Get real. The real result will be that Walmart’s COSTS will quadruple, their stockholders will demand a business model that can make profit, then they’lll be forced to raise prices to cover said costs and people will start buying their stuff at Target for their lower prices. Then Walmart will simply be the next Sears and go bankrupt in either slow or fast motion.

If Utopia were as easy as you describe, we’d be living it already… People shop at Walmart because the stuff is cheaper. That’s really the only appeal they have. Take that away, and they go away.
 
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