No one told me we weren't supposed to hold hands!

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Aramis said:
Not really.

In the Roman Mass, all active prayers are offered standing, except the penitential ones. (Even those penitential violate the canon - but that’s a digression.) The times of sitting are during meditation, instruction, and action by others (the collection).

Thus, standing when the priest does for collective prayer is not imitation of the priest. It is standing to offer active prayer to the Lord. And it dates back to the 300’s.
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Well, then it looks like all you are doing is furthering my point. The discussion of whether or not we should stand is off-topic, and I thought you were trying to start a discussion on that. My point was that things, such as standing, can be done for other theological reasons than trying to prove there is no difference between you and the priest. Therefore, similarly, it is possible for holding hands to be done for other reasons than to try and claim there is no difference between layman and priest.
 
Cat said:
When we get all worked up over those who hold hands during Mass, we tend to forget about all our own besetting sins that honestly hurt the Church of Jesus Christ and bring shame to the Name of Jesus.
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You mean like kissing during the Sign of Peace? 😉
 
EphelDuath said:
Did I say that? 🤷 The Church has spoken many times about the over-use of EMHC.
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The “Extraordinary” in “EMHC” simply means, “not ordained.” It has nothing to do with how commonly they do it.
 
jmcrae said:
The “Extraordinary” in “EMHC” simply means, “not ordained.” It has nothing to do with how commonly they do it.
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Sorta off topic, but they kinda go hand in hand. Extraordinary meaning “not ordained”, as in the normative, regular, under most circumstances individual distributing communion should be the priest. Yet when circumstances dictate, EMHC’s can be used.

It is all incredibly subjective and pastoral in regards to those circumstances, but I think a general rule should be the less they have to be used, the better. And if they must be used, can we at least get them to be dressed up instead of jeans and a tank top?
 
hilde_the_dog said:
Some of those on CAF tend to think all protestants are united. We got hand holding from the protestants - really which one of the thousands of denominations out there. Growing up as a dutch Calvinist we did not hold hands. - and they are Protestant.
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Nor did the Presbyterians of my childhood - next to Calvinists they are probably the most emotionally-controlled people in the world. Hand-holding would have been a sign of weakness.
 
kmtierney00 said:
It is all incredibly subjective and pastoral in regards to those circumstances, but I think a general rule should be the less they have to be used, the better. And if they must be used, can we at least get them to be dressed up instead of jeans and a tank top?
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What’s wrong with jeans? Are jeans immodest? No. Are jeans necessarily untidy? No. Can jeans look smart and well-presented? Yes. So what’s the problem with jeans?

And why do we need to use EMHCs less? Who determines when they are being used too often? I would say that the individual priest is best placed to determine how many EMHCs are used and how often. We should leave it to the priest to decide and give his judgment the benefit of the doubt.
 
EphelDuath said:
Why hold hands just for the Pater Noster and not for the Collect or the Agnus Dei? It’s notable for being the only congregational prayer in the Ordinary that has the priest with outstretched arms. It also seems to be a near-universal custom for the people holding hands to then raise them during the doxology.

It seems plainly obvious to me that the point of holding hands at this part of the Holy Mass is because it mimics the priest’s gestures. Same goes for holding your hands up when you respond “and with your spirit”.
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I’m only speculating (which is what you are are doing), but I think that perhaps the reason for the hand-holding during the Lord’s Prayer is that it is a prayer that Protestants and Catholics both know, so the gesture is a symbol of the peace and love between these two groups of Christians.

When Protestants are in attendance at Mass, this is the ONE part of the Mass that they recognize and can participate in (except that many tend to add the “For Thine is the Power, the Glory, and the Power” immediately after the prayer, instead of waiting for the priest.)

The other prayers you mention–the “Collect” and the “Agnus Dei” are not done in many Protestant churches, and so Protestants are left out and stand there not knowing what’s going on.

I know that some Catholics think, “So big deal–why cater to Protestants in the Mass? The Mass is about Jesus, not Protestants!”

Well, speaking as an ex-Protestant, I’m grateful for any effort by Catholics to reach out to me and my family! It worked.

One more thing–in many of the Pentecostal churches, raising the hands during prayer is the normal thing to do. Everyone does it. It’s Biblical–I Timothy 2:8 is a beautiful verse "Therefore, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension. "

They certainly aren’t trying to emulate a Catholic priest.

Funny how a gesture that is supposed to eliminate wrath and dissension (according to the Bible) actually causes it. 😦
 
kmtierney00 said:
Sorta off topic, but they kinda go hand in hand. Extraordinary meaning “not ordained”, as in the normative, regular, under most circumstances individual distributing communion should be the priest. Yet when circumstances dictate, EMHC’s can be used.

It is all incredibly subjective and pastoral in regards to those circumstances, but I think a general rule should be the less they have to be used, the better. And if they must be used, can we at least get them to be dressed up instead of jeans and a tank top?
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I agree with you that it’s good for those serving at the Altar to be properly dressed (and any time we go to the Church, we should be properly dressed, in case we are asked to serve at the Altar) and that it’s likely that more EMHCs are used than are strictly necessary.

But the word “Extraordinary” in this context means, “Not ordained.”

Ex = “not” + Ordinary = “a Bishop or other member of the ordained clergy”

It has nothing to do with “extraordinary” the English word that means “outside of the norm.”

😉
 
Cat said:
I’m only speculating (which is what you are are doing), but I think that perhaps the reason for the hand-holding during the Lord’s Prayer is that it is a prayer that Protestants and Catholics both know, so the gesture is a symbol of the peace and love between these two groups of Christians.

It’s Biblical–I Timothy 2:8 is a beautiful verse "Therefore, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension. "
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But that implies that Catholics commonly understand lifting their hands up to be a symbol of peace and love. I do not think that is the case in common Catholic culture, regardless of what the Bible says there. On the face of it, it would be very weird to see two people hold their hands up in the air to express love and peace. Less love and peace, more, “You caught me officer!” I am not familiar with any recorded part of Catholic history in which this was commonly practiced.

Rather I am likely to agree with the other poster that it seems the cause of this behavior is an imitation of the priest.
 
thewanderer said:
This.

Basically, its not a part of the rubrics, so it shouldn’t be treated as though it is, but there is nothing wrong with holding hands with others during the Our Father if you find it helpful.

I personally do not hold hands during it ever as I think the misconception that it is a part of the rubrics has crept into many parishes and this is my way of trying to help combat that misconception. But again, it is not required that you not hold hands during the Our Father if such is helpful for you.
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I agree. If I do hold hands, it’s with my grandmother when I’m at Mass with her or if a friend offers it to me. Otherwise, I try my best to fold my hands together, bow my head, and close my eyes so it doesn’t seem as if I’m intentionally ignoring someone. I frankly don’t like touching people normally, anyway.

Interestingly, my grandmother speaks all the time of how things used to be before Vatican II, but doesn’t even think twice about this custom.
 
YoungTradCath said:
Rather I am likely to agree with the other poster that it seems the cause of this behavior is an imitation of the priest.
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I too don’t really like it when members of the congregation hold their hands in the orans position during the Our Father. But I don;t think they’re imitating the priest, I think it is a charismatic thing, and that most people who do this are dong it for the same reason Pentecostalists do. It just seems quite ‘un-Catholic’ to me, but regardless of this I think that only the clergy ought to hold their hands in the orans position during the Our Father.
 
Brendan_64 said:
The Our Father is really a penitential prayer and warrants a reverent, personally reflective posture. When we face the Lord on our Day of Judgement, we do so alone, personally accountable for our own sins…
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Actually, it follows the Consecration, so penance would be inappropriate at that particular moment in the Mass. And we pray “Our Father” and not “My Father” so clearly, it is intended as a community prayer. What it signifies is the oneness in God’s family that we are about to experience in Holy Communion.

That still doesn’t mean that people should hold hands at that point in the Mass, but more because hand-holding is not a reverent gesture, rather than because it would be inappropriate to show a sign of community.
 
Brendan_64 said:
The Our Father is really a penitential prayer …
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Actually, it’s all the different types of prayers in one. That was one of the first things I remember reading when I started researching Catholicism.

It’s adoration – “Hallowed by they name”
It’s penitential – “forgive us our trespasses”
It’s a prayer of love – “Our father…”
It’s petition – “give us this day our daily bread”
and sort of thanksgiving in overall spirit 🙂
 
jmcrae said:
Actually, it follows the Consecration, so penance would be inappropriate at that particular moment in the Mass. And we pray “Our Father” and not “My Father” so clearly, it is intended as a community prayer. What it signifies is the oneness in God’s family that we are about to experience in Holy Communion.
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“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”, that sounds quite penitential to me. “and lead us not into temptation” (don’t put us to the test) “but deliver us from evil”. How is that not penitential?
 
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