No one told me we weren't supposed to hold hands!

[jmcrae]

“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”, that sounds quite penitential to me. “and lead us not into temptation” (don’t put us to the test) “but deliver us from evil”. How is that not penitential?

It’s part of the overall sequence, though - those aren’t the only lines in the prayer. And it does say “us” and not “me” so this is not a foretaste of Judgement to come.

The Penitential Act, by contrast, is “I” and not “we,” - as is the Creed.

 

[Brendan_64]

The Penitential Act, by contrast, is “I” and not “we,” - as is the Creed.

The Creed used to be “we” up to very recently, so it doesn’t necessarily follow that saying “we” isn’t a personal profession.

 

[ProVobis]

And we pray “Our Father” and not “My Father” so clearly, it is intended as a community prayer.

I think the original Aramaic was something along the lines of “O Father.” It may be in the translations it was changed to “Our Father” to distinguish it from “My Father.”

Interestingly enough in the old rite it was said or chanted by the priest alone. Even in private prayer for a small number of people, such as attending to the dying, it is still considered rude to pray along with the priest. Unless he invites you, of course.

 

[ProVobis]

The Creed used to be “we” up to very recently, so it doesn’t necessarily follow that saying “we” isn’t a personal profession.

Would that be the “royal we”?

 

[jmcrae]

The Creed used to be “we” up to very recently, so it doesn’t necessarily follow that saying “we” isn’t a personal profession.

The Latin has always been “Credo” - “I believe.”

 

[Urn]

I wonder just how much energy and time has been wasted debating this matter?

You want to hold hands? Then hold hands, but don’t ever force/coerce anyone else to!

It’s as simple as that!

Makes sense to me!

Satan must be enjoying himself. When we get all worked up over those who hold hands during Mass, we tend to forget about all our own besetting sins that honestly hurt the Church of Jesus Christ and bring shame to the Name of Jesus.

I agree. Those that get all worked-up over such non-issues actually have issues themselves – be they psychological or social issues. They need to deal with their OWN issues rather than judge others. In other words, get over it already.

For those who claim their hands are forcibly grabbed, in a word – please… I have had my hand “grabbed” twice. The first time by a sweet octogenarian (a wonderful person) who I know who gave me an incredibly harsh look when I didn’t respond and she had to grab my hand. I almost burst out laughing.

The second time by an incredibly beautiful, 6’ tall, absolutely stunning female. She was so beautiful that I felt weak in the knees and worried that my hand would sweat.

The only other thing I would add is don’t make it look as if you are raising the hand of the person next to you as if they have just won a prizefight. That’s just a technique to bring attention to yourself and it’s a no-no.

 

[Facite]

Okay, so I have got a rather authoritative source from Cardinal Francis Arinze on this subject. He states,

“It is not prescribed in the book for Mass that the people will hold hands, or even that the priest will hold hands. But it is prescribed that the celebrating priest at Mass, during the Our Father, will hold his hands that way (the Orans position), yes. It is not prescribed how the people are to hold their hands. If they want to hold that way (arms outstretched with palms facing inwards), it’s alright. If they want to hold that way (arms outstretched with palms facing upwards), it’s alright. But it is not prescribed. But if a person then goes prescribing, it’s too much!”

If anyone wants to take a look at a video in which he states this, please take a look at this video youtube.com/watch?v=Iix5v1ytwBA. Relevant information begins at 6:47.

Deus benedicat vobis semper.

 

[april32010]

I agree. Those that get all worked-up over such non-issues actually have issues themselves – be they psychological or social issues. They need to deal with their OWN issues rather than judge others. In other words, get over it already.

there is no call to be insulting.“you need to deal with your OWN issues rather than judge others. In other words, get over it already”

 

[relstudent]

Does hand holding have a historical precedent in either the Eastern or Western Rites before VII? If not I think the practice should be left out. If it is a beneficial practice then EVERYONE should do it… if its up to personal preference then noone should do it. The Liturgical action should be uniform across rites. Not that different rites cant have different actions (standing vs kneeling), but it is dangerous when you introduce the idea that “you can do what you want” in this part of the mass. I know that is taking it to the extreme, but liturgy should have uniform proscribed actions. I would be fine with either holding hands or not holding hand, but there should be clarity on which one should be done, and the lex credendi behind it.

 

[Urn]

there is no call to be insulting. you need to deal with your OWN issues rather than judge others. In other words, get over it already"

The defensive nature of your retort gives me pause…

Those that continue to hammer away at matters like this are the ones in the wrong. Whether a psychological matter (control, etc.) or a social matter (lack of manners), THEY are in the wrong.

Yes, they claim that XYZ said not to hold hands! It was even on EWTN!

So? Who cares? Mind your own business! Close your eyes during the Lord’s Prayer!. Stop obsessing about things like this which you cannot control.

There are of course those who claim their hands are “grabbed” by others. Oh really? If you haven’t figured out how to handle that (hold a missalette in both of your hands, fold your hands in front of you, stick them in your pockets, theatrically sneeze in them just before the Lord’s Prayer, etc., etc., etc.) then you need to!

 

[pnewton]

I must sadly admit that this is one area, the second in nine years, that I part company with the apologists at CAF. I guess that’s not too bad, especially since I still use Amazing Grace, Mr. Keating! ( I sure have a long memory on this, see 2004 thread.) Seriously, I love this place and am almost always in agreement with these guys, but on this I have to say that what Cardinal Arinze said on the subject has always resonated with me. It occurred during the time Liturgy was his baliwick. .

“Why do you regiment the people of God? Are they soldiers? Allow them some freedom”

Rome is not real strict on this. I think it best that we let the people of God be the people of God.

youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM

and again:

youtube.com/watch?v=Iix5v1ytwBA

“If they want to hold that way, it’s alright. If they want to hold that way, it’s alright. It is not proscribed. But when they go proscribing, it’s too much.”

So, why proscribe more than the Rome does in this area? That has always been my take on these issues of lay posture and response. I do not know why these issues always get people up in arms (get it, up in *arms *) but I would like to think there are bigger fish to fry in the world in which we live today.

 

[Urn]

I must sadly admit that this is one area, the second in nine years, that I part company with the apologists at CAF. I guess that’s not too bad, especially since I still use Amazing Grace, Mr. Keating! ( I sure have a long memory on this, see 2004 thread.) Seriously, I love this place and am almost always in agreement with these guys, but on this I have to say that what Cardinal Arinze said on the subject has always resonated with me. It occurred during the time Liturgy was his baliwick. .
Rome is not real strict on this. I think it best that we let the people of God be the people of God.

youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM

and again:

youtube.com/watch?v=Iix5v1ytwBA

So, why proscribe more than the Rome does in this area? That has always been my take on these issues of lay posture and response. I do not know why these issues always get people up in arms (get it, up in *arms *) but I would like to think there are bigger fish to fry in the world in which we live today.

Thank you for your wonderful posting. There are so many real problems at so many Masses that stuff like this should simply be ignored. Some of the arguments made against hand-holding are out and out laughable.

I think obsessing on matters like this can also do real damage to the reputations of the experts condemning things like hand-holding.

My objection is that some hand-holders (a small minority in my personal experience) are simply doing it to bring attention to themselves. Ignore them. Close your eyes or focus on the crucifix, etc.

 

[Brendan_64]

I agree. Those that get all worked-up over such non-issues actually have issues themselves – be they psychological or social issues. They need to deal with their OWN issues rather than judge others. In other words, get over it already.

I don’t see anyone getting ‘worked-up’ over this issue on here. It’s simply a cordial, well-mannered exchange of different opinions. Just a case of people expressing their different viewpoints, which is part of the point of online message boards really.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

I agree. Those that get all worked-up over such non-issues actually have issues themselves – be they psychological or social issues. They need to deal with their OWN issues rather than judge others. In other words, get over it already.

For those who claim their hands are forcibly grabbed, in a word – please… I have had my hand “grabbed” twice. The first time by a sweet octogenarian (a wonderful person) who I know who gave me an incredibly harsh look when I didn’t respond and she had to grab my hand. I almost burst out laughing.

The second time by an incredibly beautiful, 6’ tall, absolutely stunning female. She was so beautiful that I felt weak in the knees and worried that my hand would sweat.

The only other thing I would add is don’t make it look as if you are raising the hand of the person next to you as if they have just won a prizefight. That’s just a technique to bring attention to yourself and it’s a no-no.

I’ll be sure and pass your thoughts onto Archbishop Lori, so he can relax and stop concerning himself about it.

I’ll also have the mods close 70-90% of the topics on here that involve perceived non-issues as you see it; can you give us a list of topics that are wastes of time?