No perpetual virginity?

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A quick question. I know we believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary (in accordance with well-interpreted scripture, the church fathers, the early reformers, Etc, Etc). That’s fine.

But someone has asked me a question which I don’t know the answer to:

What is the history of Christians NOT believing in the perpetual virginity of Mary? Where did this belief come from, who came out with it, how did it spread?

Basically, in the words of a minor current-affairs comedy on the BBC, “What, why, where, who?”

(I’m not talking about Helvidius here but about the 16th century onwards or any other people in the previous few centuries)

Any help would be appreciated. It’s not crucial but it would be nice to know the answer.

Blessings

Ashley
 
Oh well, I thought someone here might know the answer to the question of the history of Christians denying the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the thread just got lost in the many others. Never mind.

No one knew the answer to the last question I asked either, about 3 months ago. Never mind, that question didn’t alter the validity of any Catholic practices - but did call into grave question the validity of one of the ways it is defended in tracts on this site.
 
Well, it’s certainly a complex question and not the kind of thing that most people will have a ready answer for. Usually, the path of the non-believers is not documented well.

I’m not sure why you’re looking for this information. What is the topic that you’re pursuing?

If you want to know everyone who didn’t believe that doctrine, that’s more than can be done. If you’re looking for theologians who didn’t accept it, you could go back through some of the controversies.

Somewhat famously, St. Thomas Aquinas did not think it was a revealed doctrine. He thought that the evidence in the Early Fathers was not strong enough. But there were others in his own time who saw the teaching as true and apostolic – and the Church confirmed that, as we know.
 
This has to be the best question I’ve come across in months!!!👍
 
Reggie,

Could you explain a bit more about Aquinas in this regard? My impression was that he did not hesitate to affirm Mary’s perpetual virginity.

VC
 
Somewhat famously, St. Thomas Aquinas did not think it was a revealed doctrine. He thought that the evidence in the Early Fathers was not strong enough. But there were others in his own time who saw the teaching as true and apostolic – and the Church confirmed that, as we know.
It was the Immaculate Conception (which was not infallibly defined until 1854, hundreds of years after Aquinas’ death) that St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t accept. I’m sure he would have accepted the perpetual virginity of Mary since it was Church teaching.

Nita
 
It was the Immaculate Conception (which was not infallibly defined until 1854, hundreds of years after Aquinas’ death) that St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t accept. I’m sure he would have accepted the perpetual virginity of Mary since it was Church teaching.

Nita
I believe it is more correct to say “Afirmed” rather than “defned.” The Immculate Conception was a Doctrine of the Church from its early days.
 
Here is a little background from “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ott:

Quote:
The Lateran Synod of the year 649, under Pope Martin I, stressed the threefold character of Mary’s virginity teaching of the “blessed ever-virginal and immaculate Mary” that: “she conceived without seed, of the Holy Ghost, generated without injury (to her virginity), and her virginity continued unimpaired after the birth”. Pope Paul IV declared (1555): Beatissimam Virginem Mariam…perstitisse semper in virginitatis integritate, ante partum scilicet, in partu et perpetuo post partum.
Unquote.

Here’s a translation of the Latin from Denzinger:
…persist in the integrity of virginity, namely before bringing forth, at bringing forth, and always after bringing forth…

Regarding Mary’s virginity during birth - also from “Fundamentals…”:

Quote:
But the Fathers, with few exceptions, vouch for the miraculous character of the birth. …
Mary’s virginity during the birth of Jesus was contested in the Early Church by Tertullian…and especially by Jovinian, an opponent of the Church ideal of virginal purity…
Jovinian’s teaching … was rejected at a Synod at Milan (390 AD) under the presidency of St. Ambrose, which recalled the invocation of the Apostles’ Creed - Natus ex Maria virgine. Her virginity during the birth of Jesus is included in the title of honour “Perpetual virgin” which was given to Mary by the Fifth General Council at Constantinople (553 AD)
…
End quote

Regarding Mary’s virginity after the birth of Jesus - again from “Fundamentals…”
Quote:
Mary’s virginity after the birth of Jesus was denied in the Early Church by Tertullian, Eunomius, Jovinian, Helvidius, Bonosus of Sardica and…

Pope St. Siricius (392) rejected the teaching of Bonosus. The Fifth General Council (553) gives Mary the title of honour “perpetual virgin”.
…
Among the Fathers many upheld the teaching of Mary’s virginity after the birth of Jesus: Origen …, St. Ambrose…, St. Jerome…, St. Augustine, St. Epiphanius, St. Basil remarks: “The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin”.
End quote.

As you can see, it has been around from the earliest times. Origen was born in 185 AD; died 232AD.

Hope this helps.
You really ought to get the book “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott. It’s is great. Gives the doctrines, Scriptural support for them; Early Church support; heresies that led to their being defined. Great handbook for a Catholic.

Nita
 
I believe it is more correct to say “Afirmed” rather than “defned.” The Immculate Conception was a Doctrine of the Church from its early days.
No. I think you’re confusing it with the perpetual virginity; or else the conception of Jesus. The teaching that Mary was free from original sin (immaculate) from the moment of her conception did not come until later.

Will give just a little from “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”:
Quote:
At the beginning of the twelfth century, the British monk Eadmer, a pupil of St. Anselm of Canterbury, …advocated the Immaculate (passive) Conception of Mary, that is her conception free from original sin. …On the other hand, St. Bernard of Clairvaux, on the occasion of the institution of the Feast in Lyons (about 1140), warned the faithful that this was an unfounded innovation, and taught that Mary was sanctified after conception only, that is, when she was already in the womb (Ep. 174). Under the influence of St. Bernard, the leading theologians of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries (Petrus Lombardus, St. Alexander of Hales, St. Bonaventure, St. Albert the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, rejected the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Their difficulty was that they had not yet found the way to bring Mary’s freedom from original sin into consonance with the universality of original sin, and with the necessity of all men for redemption.

End quote.

These saints would never have rejected a teaching that was Church doctrine at the time they were living.

Nita
 
What is the history of Christians NOT believing in the perpetual virginity of Mary?
The popularity of the idea that Mary was always a virgin exploded on the scene only in the 4th century after Christ. There we find the doctrine to be widespread.

But if we must trace the doctrine’s acceptance, we should start with Christ Himself.

Christ did not teach this doctrine. This can be seen from the multiple accounts of His most important doctrines recorded purposely in the Gospels. In actuality, if read straight and without bias, the Scriptures imply that Mary was not always a virgin.

After Christ ascended, the Apostles did not teach this doctrine either, nor is there any contemporary record anywhere that they did.

After the Apostles, none of the earliest fathers and writings ever mention this doctrine and some teach contrary to it. There were many writings in the earliest centuries, but none teaching that Mary was perpetually a virgin.

For some examples, the early church father Hegesippus taught that Jude, Christ’s brother (Mar 6:3), was related by blood:

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-08/anf08-165.htm

Irenaeus also taught that Mary did not remain a virgin while married:

“For as by one man’s disobedience sin entered, and death obtained [a place] through sin; so also by the obedience of one man, righteousness having been introduced, shall cause life to fructify in those persons who in times past were dead. And as the protoplast himself Adam, had his substance from untilled and as yet virgin soil (“for God had not yet sent rain, and man had not tilled the ground”), and was formed by the hand of God, that is, by the Word of God, for “all things were made by Him,” and the Lord took dust from the earth and formed man; so did He who is the Word, recapitulating Adam in Himself, rightly receive a birth, enabling Him to gather up Adam [into Himself], from Mary, who was as yet a virgin.” ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/…#P7836_2143030

And…

"before Joseph had come together with Mary, while she therefore remained in virginity, “she was found with child of the Holy Ghost” ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/…#P7317_1944667

Tertullian, at the height of his orthodox genius, and as the Father of Latin Christianity, also taught that Christ’s brothers mentioned in Mat 12:46 were BLOOD relation:

“Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? He added the answer “None but they who hear my words and do them,” He transferred the names of blood-relationship to others, whom He judged to be more closely related to Him by reason of their faith.”
tertullian.org/anf/anf03/…#P5992_1802834

This is the consistent testimony up until Origen (middle of the 3rd century after Christ), who himself believed that Mary was always a virgin.

It was during the 4th century after Christ that this doctrine finally became very popular. As far as I know, most of the 4th centruy fathers held this view and taught it, unlike earlier fathers.

Even in the 4th century, however, there were many Christians who did not believe that Mary was perpetually a virgin. St. Basil said that the view that Mary had other children during his era:

“was widely held and, though not accepted by himself, was not incompatible with orthodoxy” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 495).

Please note that this is the reality all the way in the 4th century after Christ.

Here is St. Basil commenting on the doctrine again:

“[The opinion that Mary bore several children after Christ]…does not run counter to faith; for, virginity was imposed on Mary as a necessity, only up to the time that she served as an instrument for the Incarnation, while, on the other hand, her subsequent virginity had no great importance with regard to the mystery of the Incarnation.” Homilia in sanctam Christi generationem, PG 31:1468.(See. fn 174 of Carol, Vol. 2, p. 277).

After this period, and only after this period, did the popularity of this doctrine so win out that almost nobody believed otherwise until yet again in more recent centuries.

…
 
Today, on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I think it important to defend one of the glorious privileges of Mary, namely her perpetual virginity. I write not primarily to convince those opposed to this sure doctrine, but rather for any who may unsettled by certain points made above.
Christ did not teach this doctrine. This can be seen from the multiple accounts of His most important doctrines recorded purposely in the Gospels.
This doesn’t seem dispositive in itself that the doctrine is not true. See John 21:25 “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”
In actuality, if read straight and without bias, the Scriptures imply that Mary was not always a virgin.
And yet there are many Church Fathers, Saints, and theologians of all denominations, not to mention the Church herself, who after a sober reading of scripture come to the conclusion that the scriptures do not contradict her perpetual virginity.
none of the earliest fathers and writings ever mention this doctrine
The Protoevangelium of James (c. 130) seems to mention Mary’s virginity after Christ’s birth.
For some examples, the early church father Hegesippus taught that Jude, Christ’s brother (Mar 6:3), was related by blood:
And yet the fragments of Hegesippus’ writings extant also seem to have internal contradictons on this point: for instance he says that Clopas was the brother of St. Joseph. Since James was the son of Clopas, and Jude was the brother of James the indication is that Jude is the cousin, not the brother, of Our Lord.
Irenaeus also taught that Mary did not remain a virgin while married.
The quotes from St. Irenaeus seem to speak directly only to Mary’s virginity before the birth of Christ – and not directly to whether or not she was a virgin after.
Tertullian. . .also taught that Christ’s brothers . . . were BLOOD relation
True of Tertullian. One must remember, however, that Tertullian’s primary preoccupation at this point was combating Docetism, and its denial of Christ’s humanity.
This is the consistent testimony up until Origen
The testimony doesn’t seem consistent: 1) Hegisippius, who may contradict himself on this point, 2) St. Irenaeus, whose statements are at least consistitent with perpetual virginity, and 3) Tertullian, who does deny it directly (recalling however his fight against Docetism). Only three examples have been given so far.
Even in the 4th century, however, there were many Christians who did not believe that Mary was perpetually a virgin. St. Basil said that the view that Mary had other children during his era:“was widely held and, though not accepted by himself, was not incompatible with orthodoxy” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 495).
Leaving aside the possible distinction between “many Christians” [many italicized AND bolded!) and the more modest “widely held” – the fact that there was controversy (i.e. “inconsistent testimony” ) (see for instance St. Jerome’s defense against Helvidius: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm”]The Perpetual Virginity of Mary) explains part of the reason for the Church’s reference to Mary’s perpetual virginity at the Council of Chalcedon (451). This was followed by Constantinople (553) and Lateran (649) both which continued to affirm Mary’s perpetual virginity. The Church acts a sure guide, precisely when there is controversy.

VC
 
Here is a little background from “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ott:

Hope this helps.
You really ought to get the book “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott. It’s is great. Gives the doctrines, Scriptural support for them; Early Church support; heresies that led to their being defined. Great handbook for a Catholic.

Nita
Thanks for that early church background and thanks to everyone else for their help here.

Ott is on my Amazon wishlist. One of these days I’ll get a copy. There are just too many good Catholic books!
 
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