No Pope = No Ecumenical Council

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I had never heard this before, but I did a little bit of investigating, and from what I have read, you are correct. Thank you for pointing this out.
You are welcome. It was a surprise to me also when I first learned of it. More interesting is what is happening in modern times:

His Holiness John Paul II, Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic Church, and His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV, Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East, give thanks to God who has prompted them to this new brotherly meeting.
Both of them consider this meeting as a basic step on the way towards the full communion to be restored between their Churches. They can indeed, from now on, proclaim together before the world their common faith in the mystery of the Incarnation.

But the same God the Word, begotten of his Father before all worlds without beginning according to his divinity, was born of a mother without a father in the last times according to his humanity. The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour”. In the light of this same faith the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of God” and also as “the Mother of Christ”. We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety.
This is the unique faith that we profess in the mystery of Christ. The controversies of the past led to anathemas, bearing on persons and on formulas. The Lord’s Spirit permits us to understand better today that the divisions brought about in this way were due in large part to misunderstandings.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_11111994_assyrian-church_en.html
 
No one is saying the bishops don’t do their part. We’re talking about the final approval.

The pope’s approval is final. It is necessary and sufficient to end the process.

Do you have any examples that the process continued (iow, the council kept going) after the pope approved the council

That doesn’t make the council ecumenical.

The point is, bishops by themselves can’t make a council ecumenical.
Nothing you have said shows that the approval of the pope was viewed in the early Church as both necessary and sufficient to make an Ecumenical Council, apart from the approval of the bishops in council.

Of course the other bishops by themselves, apart from the pope can’t make an ecumenical council. Neither can the pope, apart from the other bishops, make an ecumenical council. A council, by its very nature is collegial.

No, I have no example of a council that kept debating after the pope’s approval. The pope’s approval takes place either at the same time or subsequent to that of the other bishops. Do you have an example from any of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils where the pope unilaterally imposed the teachings and canons of the Council upon the rest of the bishops and they just accepted it and debate came to an immediate end?

Finally, if the acceptance of a council by the pope was understood to be both necessary and sufficient to make a council universally authoritative and binding, then why did the patriarchates of Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem all break communion with Rome? Had it been the case that it was understood that the pope’s acceptance of a council made it ecumenical, then the Council of Ephesus would not have resulted in temporary schism, the Council of Chalcedon would not have resulted in permanent schism, and the Second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence would have been successful in their attempts to bring a permanent end to schism between Rome and the Orthodox.
 
You are welcome. It was a surprise to me also when I first learned of it. More interesting is what is happening in modern times:

His Holiness John Paul II, Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic Church, and His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV, Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East, give thanks to God who has prompted them to this new brotherly meeting.
Both of them consider this meeting as a basic step on the way towards the full communion to be restored between their Churches. They can indeed, from now on, proclaim together before the world their common faith in the mystery of the Incarnation.

But the same God the Word, begotten of his Father before all worlds without beginning according to his divinity, was born of a mother without a father in the last times according to his humanity. The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour”. In the light of this same faith the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of God” and also as “the Mother of Christ”. We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety.
This is the unique faith that we profess in the mystery of Christ. The controversies of the past led to anathemas, bearing on persons and on formulas. The Lord’s Spirit permits us to understand better today that the divisions brought about in this way were due in large part to misunderstandings.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_11111994_assyrian-church_en.html
I already knew about the Common Christological Declaration, but not the Synod of Dadyeshu.
 
Nothing you have said shows that the approval of the pope was viewed in the early Church as both necessary and sufficient to make an Ecumenical Council, apart from the approval of the bishops in council.

Of course the other bishops by themselves, apart from the pope can’t make an ecumenical council. Neither can the pope, apart from the other bishops, make an ecumenical council. A council, by its very nature is collegial.

No, I have no example of a council that kept debating after the pope’s approval. The pope’s approval takes place either at the same time or subsequent to that of the other bishops. Do you have an example from any of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils where the pope unilaterally imposed the teachings and canons of the Council upon the rest of the bishops and they just accepted it and debate came to an immediate end?

Finally, if the acceptance of a council by the pope was understood to be both necessary and sufficient to make a council universally authoritative and binding, then why did the patriarchates of Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem all break communion with Rome? Had it been the case that it was understood that the pope’s acceptance of a council made it ecumenical, then the Council of Ephesus would not have resulted in temporary schism, the Council of Chalcedon would not have resulted in permanent schism, and the Second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence would have been successful in their attempts to bring a permanent end to schism between Rome and the Orthodox.
By temporary schism (after Ephesus), are you referring to how two councils of Ephesus were held and to St. Cyril’s somewhat questionable method of starting a riot to have his council be accepted by the Emperor? I’m must say, those imperial Romans were incredibly good at cleaning history up; not even a single mention of these events, to my memory, pops up in the acts of Chalcedon! 😉
 
By temporary schism (after Ephesus), are you referring to how two councils of Ephesus were held and to St. Cyril’s somewhat questionable method of starting a riot to have his council be accepted by the Emperor? I’m must say, those imperial Romans were incredibly good at cleaning history up; not even a single mention of these events, to my memory, pops up in the acts of Chalcedon! 😉
I don’t think that St. Cyril ever used methods like this, sad that those things are said about a saint of that great holiness :mad:
 
Nothing you have said shows that the approval of the pope was viewed in the early Church as both necessary and sufficient to make an Ecumenical Council, apart from the approval of the bishops in council.

Of course the other bishops by themselves, apart from the pope can’t make an ecumenical council. Neither can the pope, apart from the other bishops, make an ecumenical council. A council, by its very nature is collegial.

No, I have no example of a council that kept debating after the pope’s approval. The pope’s approval takes place either at the same time or subsequent to that of the other bishops. *Do you have an example from any of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils where the pope unilaterally imposed the teachings and canons of the Council upon the rest of the bishops and they just accepted it and debate came to an immediate end? *
Might I ask, who stirred you up?

I’ll give you one example from the Council of Chalcedon. You can look up the entire procedings yourself if you want.

“At the closing of the sessions the council wrote a letter to Pope Leo I, in which the Fathers informed him of what had been done; thanked him for the exposition of Christian Faith contained in his dogmatic epistle; spoke of his legates as having presided over them in his name; and asked for the ratification of the disciplinary matters enacted, particularly canon 28. This letter was handed to the papal legates, who departed for Rome soon after the last session of the council. Similar letters were written to Pope Leo in December by Emperor Marcian and Anatolius of Constantinople. In reply Pope Leo protested most energetically against canon xxviii and declared it null and void as being against the prerogatives of Bishops of Alexandria and Antioch, and against the decrees of the Council of Nicaea. Like protests were contained in the letters written 22 May, 452, to Emperor Marcian, Empress Pulcheria, and Anatolius of Constantinople. Otherwise the pope ratified the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon, but only inasmuch as they referred to matters of faith. This approval was contained in letters written 21 March, 453, to the bishops who took part in the council; hence the Council of Chalcedon, at least as to the first six sessions, became an ecumenical synod, and was considered as such by all Christians, both in the time of Pope Leo and after him.”
R:
Finally, if the acceptance of a council by the pope was understood to be both necessary and sufficient to make a council universally authoritative and binding, then why did the patriarchates of Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem all break communion with Rome?
c’mon Ryan where is this stuff coming from?
R:
Had it been the case that it was understood that the pope’s acceptance of a council made it ecumenical, then the Council of Ephesus would not have resulted in temporary schism, the Council of Chalcedon would not have resulted in permanent schism, and the Second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence would have been successful in their attempts to bring a permanent end to schism between Rome and the Orthodox.
Didn’t Satan, in front of Jesus, get the apostles into an argument in the upper room the night of the Last Supper [Lk 22:24…]? Yep! Think he gave up sifting? Nope! Who did Jesus say everybody is to get behind? Peter. If one wants to do things Jesus way, they never seperate from Peter.
 
Might I ask, who stirred you up?

I’ll give you one example from the Council of Chalcedon. You can look up the entire procedings yourself if you want.

“At the closing of the sessions the council wrote a letter to Pope Leo I, in which the Fathers informed him of what had been done; thanked him for the exposition of Christian Faith contained in his dogmatic epistle; spoke of his legates as having presided over them in his name; and asked for the ratification of the disciplinary matters enacted, particularly canon 28. This letter was handed to the papal legates, who departed for Rome soon after the last session of the council. Similar letters were written to Pope Leo in December by Emperor Marcian and Anatolius of Constantinople. In reply Pope Leo protested most energetically against canon xxviii and declared it null and void as being against the prerogatives of Bishops of Alexandria and Antioch, and against the decrees of the Council of Nicaea. Like protests were contained in the letters written 22 May, 452, to Emperor Marcian, Empress Pulcheria, and Anatolius of Constantinople. Otherwise the pope ratified the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon, but only inasmuch as they referred to matters of faith. This approval was contained in letters written 21 March, 453, to the bishops who took part in the council; hence the Council of Chalcedon, at least as to the first six sessions, became an ecumenical synod, and was considered as such by all Christians, both in the time of Pope Leo and after him.”
That quotation is from the Catholic Encyclopedia, right?
 
I don’t think that St. Cyril ever used methods like this, sad that those things are said about a saint of that great holiness :mad:
Uh, yes. St. Cyril’s very questionable conduct in with respect to the Council of Ephesus is very well known. And truthfully, he came to be revered as a saint much more for his incredibly important contributions to Church doctrine (which are difficult to overestimate), than for his holiness of life, which is quite questionable.
 
Might I ask, who stirred you up?

I’ll give you one example from the Council of Chalcedon. You can look up the entire procedings yourself if you want.

“At the closing of the sessions the council wrote a letter to Pope Leo I, in which the Fathers informed him of what had been done; thanked him for the exposition of Christian Faith contained in his dogmatic epistle; spoke of his legates as having presided over them in his name; and asked for the ratification of the disciplinary matters enacted, particularly canon 28. This letter was handed to the papal legates, who departed for Rome soon after the last session of the council. Similar letters were written to Pope Leo in December by Emperor Marcian and Anatolius of Constantinople. In reply Pope Leo protested most energetically against canon xxviii and declared it null and void as being against the prerogatives of Bishops of Alexandria and Antioch, and against the decrees of the Council of Nicaea. Like protests were contained in the letters written 22 May, 452, to Emperor Marcian, Empress Pulcheria, and Anatolius of Constantinople. Otherwise the pope ratified the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon, but only inasmuch as they referred to matters of faith. This approval was contained in letters written 21 March, 453, to the bishops who took part in the council; hence the Council of Chalcedon, at least as to the first six sessions, became an ecumenical synod, and was considered as such by all Christians, both in the time of Pope Leo and after him.”

c’mon Ryan where is this stuff coming from?

Didn’t Satan, in front of Jesus, get the apostles into an argument in the upper room the night of the Last Supper [Lk 22:24…]? Yep! Think he gave up sifting? Nope! Who did Jesus say everybody is to get behind? Peter. If one wants to do things Jesus way, they never seperate from Peter.
I suspected you would point to Chalcedon. But you left out another very important detail. When Pope Leo’s tome was presented, it did not end debate. Most of the bishops accepted it right away; however, some suspected strains of Nestorianism, so they formed a committee that examined it against the christological teachings of the Council of Ephesus. It was only after this committee accepted Pope Leo’s tome that it was included in the acts of the Council of Chalcedon.

What do you mean in asking where is this stuff coming from? It is an historical fact that all four of the eastern patriarchates broke commumion with Rome. Ephesus solidified the schism of the Assyrian Church of the East and resulted in further temporary schism. Chalcedon resulted in permanent schism. The Second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence sought to end schism with the Eastern Orthodox, and ultimately failed. Now you can argue until your blue in the face that Rome was right and the other patriarchates were wrong, and that might be the case. However, I think that the proponderance of the historical evidence associated with the First Seven Ecumenical Councils, as well as the Second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence shows that it was not the case that the approval of the pope of Rome was understood to be necessary and sufficient to make a council ecumenical.
 
Uh, yes, St. Cyril’s very questionable conduct in with respect to the Council of Ephesus is very well known.
I know that those things are said about him but I firmly believe the nestorians made up those lies.

Read this

Edit: the terrorising St. Cyril myth originates from the Book of Heraclides, written by, yes you guessed it, Nestorius.
 
I suspected you would point to Chalcedon. But you left out another very important detail. When Pope Leo’s tome was presented, it did not end debate. Most of the bishops accepted it right away; however, some suspected strains of Nestorianism, so they formed a committee that examined it against the christological teachings of the Council of Ephesus. It was only after this committee accepted Pope Leo’s tome that it was included in the acts of the Council of Chalcedon.

What do you mean in asking where is this stuff coming from? It is an historical fact that all four of the eastern patriarchates broke commumion with Rome. Ephesus solidified the schism of the Assyrian Church of the East and resulted in further temporary schism. Chalcedon resulted in permanent schism. The Second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence sought to end schism with the Eastern Orthodox, and ultimately failed. Now you can argue until your blue in the face that Rome was right and the other patriarchates were wrong, and that might be the case. However, I think that the proponderance of the historical evidence associated with the First Seven Ecumenical Councils, as well as the Second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence shows that it was not the case that the approval of the pope of Rome was understood to be necessary and sufficient to make a council ecumenical.
I’m questioning your attack.
 
I know that those things are said about him but I firmly believe the nestorians made up those lies.

Read this

Edit: the terrorising St. Cyril myth originates from the Book of Heraclides, written by, yes you guessed it, Nestorius.
St. John Chrysostom is said to have started a mob which burned down one of the wonders of the world, the Temple of Artemis. I really am not too bothered by either story: that’s just how things were back then.
 
Someone once told me that one of the early Ecumenical Councils contains a statement that there can not be a Council without the Bishop of Rome. Can anyone provide a quote or tell me which Council? Thanks!
More accurately, a council cannot be an Ecumenical if he is not represented by legates or attend himself.
 
More accurately, a council cannot be an Ecumenical if he is not represented by legates or attend himself.
There is the case of the second ecumenical council, which was a local eastern council, and was only later validated by Pope Vigilius after the fifth.

Papal ratifications:
  1. Council of Nicaea (325)
    ratified by Pope St. Sylvester I (314-335 pontificate)
  2. First Council of Constantinople (381)
    It was a local council of the east. (See 5 below.)
  3. Council of Ephesus (431)
    Ratified by Pope Celestine I (421-432 pontificate)
  4. Council of Chalcedon (451)
    Ratified by Pope St. Leo the Great (440-461 pontificate)
  5. Council of Constantinople II (553)
    Reconfirmed the first four councils: Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon,
    Ratified by Pope Vigilius (537-555 pontificate)“Having thus detailed all that has been done by us, we again confess that we receive the four holy Synods, that is, the Nicene, the Constantinopolitan, the first of Ephesus, and that of Chalcedon, and we have taught, and do teach all that they defined respecting the one faith.”
    fordham.edu/halsall/basis/const2.html
Pope St. Gregory I (590-604 pontificate) also declared the first four general councils to be authoritative as the four Gospels.

catholic-resources.org/Church…alCouncils.htm

And also Pope Gregory VII (1073-1085 pontificate) referred to the (Eighth) Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870) as ecumenical, by reference to canon 22.
 
How could a council at which so many bishops excommunicated the reigning pope ever become ecumenical by the consent of the man holding that office at the time or later on?

The more discussions I read, the less Early Church history and Catholic ecclesiology seem to line up…
As Bl John Henry Newman reminds us, in his Letter to the Duke of Norfolk, quoting Peronne, “Councils are not infallible in the reasons by which they are led, or on which they rely, in making their definition, nor in matters which relate to persons, nor to physical matters which have no necessary connexion with dogma.” Præl. Theol. t. 2, p. 492. “Thus, in the Third Council, a passage of an heretical author was quoted in defence of the doctrine defined, under the belief he was Pope Julius, and narratives, not trustworthy, are introduced into the Seventh.”

Again, “Nor is a Council infallible, even in the prefaces and introductions to its definitions. There are theologians of name, as Tournely and Amort [Amort. Dem. Cr., pp. 205-6] who contend that even those most instructive capitula passed in the Tridentine Council, from which the Canons with anathemas are drawn up, are not portions of the Church’s infallible teaching; and the parallel introductions prefixed to the Vatican [Vatican I] anathemas have an authority not greater nor less than that of those capitula.”
 
As Bl John Henry Newman reminds us, in his Letter to the Duke of Norfolk, quoting Peronne, “Councils are not infallible in the reasons by which they are led, or on which they rely, in making their definition, nor in matters which relate to persons, nor to physical matters which have no necessary connexion with dogma.” Præl. Theol. t. 2, p. 492. “Thus, in the Third Council, a passage of an heretical author was quoted in defence of the doctrine defined, under the belief he was Pope Julius, and narratives, not trustworthy, are introduced into the Seventh.”

Again, “Nor is a Council infallible, even in the prefaces and introductions to its definitions. There are theologians of name, as Tournely and Amort [Amort. Dem. Cr., pp. 205-6] who contend that even those most instructive capitula passed in the Tridentine Council, from which the Canons with anathemas are drawn up, are not portions of the Church’s infallible teaching; and the parallel introductions prefixed to the Vatican [Vatican I] anathemas have an authority not greater nor less than that of those capitula.”
These are helpful clarifications. But the question arises: did the Catholic/Orthodox Church of the first millennium even hold to the infallibility of councils (whether in whole or in part)?
 
These are helpful clarifications. But the question arises: did the Catholic/Orthodox Church of the first millennium even hold to the infallibility of councils (whether in whole or in part)?
Therein lies the problem with affirming that claim to be true. If councils were understood to be infallible by either a) their own virtue, or b) by virtue of certain bishops there represented, why did dissenting bishops feel free to reject ecumenical councils if they understood a) or b) to be true? Shouldn’t they have instead submitted to the authority of the council, even if they personally believed that it was wrong? Also, why is it in early apologetic materials for the decisions of councils, that there is no mention of their self-effected infallibility?

Why, for example, didn’t Saints Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian and Gregory of Nyssa in their debates against the Anomoeans simply claim that, “the matter has already been mooted by the infallible council of Nicaea,” instead of developing detailed apologies for Nicene Orthodoxy and polemics against Anomoeanism, or why didn’t St. John of Damascus claim that, “monergism has already been condemned by an infallible council,” rather than going through the trouble of writing a short apology for how the use of the term theandric energy by pseudo Dionysus was not monergistic in intent? That surely would have saved them a lot of ink and time. It seems to me that people only came to recognize in retrospect whether a certain declaration made by a certain council was authoritative or not.
 
More accurately, a council cannot be an Ecumenical if he is not represented by legates or attend himself.
As Vico well answered, the 2nd oecumenical council falsifies that claim. St Meletius, who presided it, was not even in communion with Rome:
The Arians were not slow to avenge themselves. On vague pretexts the emperor banished Meletius to his native Armenia. He had occupied his see less than a month.
This exile was **the immediate cause of a long and deplorable schism between the Catholics of Antioch, henceforth divided into Meletians and Eustathians. **
Though the election of Meletius was beyond contestation, the hot-headed Lucifer Cagliari yielded to the solicitations of the opposing faction, and instead of temporizing and awaiting Meletius’s approaching return from exile, assisted by two confessors **he hastily consecrated as Bishop of Antioch the Eustathian leader, Paulinus. This unwise measure was a great calamity, for it definitively established the schism. **Meletius and his adherents were not responsible, and it is a peculiar injustice of history that this division should be known as the Meletian schism when the Eustathians or Paulinians were alone answerable for it. Meletius’s return soon followed, also the arrival of Eusebius of Vercelli, but he could accomplish nothing under the circumstances.
Just then St. Athanasius came to Antioch by order of the emperor, and expressed to Meletius his wish of entering into communion with him. Meletius, ill-advised, delayed answering him, and St. Athanasius went away leaving with Paulinus, whom he had not yet recognized as bishop, the declaration that he admitted him to his communion. Such blundering resulted in sad consequences for the Meletian cause. The moderation constantly shown by Athanasius, who thoroughly believed in Meletius’s orthodoxy, was not found in his successor, Peter of Alexandria, who did not conceal his belief that Meletius was an heretic.
This new exile, owing to a lull in the persecution, was of short duration, and probably in 367 **Meletius took up again the government of his see. It was then that John, the future Chrysostom, entered the ranks of the clergy. **
At this time St. Basil occupied the see of Cæsarea (370) and was a strong supporter of Meletius. With rare insight Basil thoroughly understood the situation, which made impossible the restoration of religious peace in the East. It was clear that the antagonism between Athanasius and Meletius protracted endlessly the conflict. Meletius, the only legitimate Bishop of Antioch, was the only acceptable one for the East; unfortunately he was going into exile for the third time. In these circumstances Basil began negotiations with Meletius and Athanasius for the pacification of the East.
This important conversion won over to the intruders St. Jerome and Pope Damasus; the very next year, and without any declaration concerning the schism, **the pope showed a decided preference for Paulinus, recognized him as bishop, greeted him as brother, and considered him papal legate in the East.**Great was the consternation of Meletius and his community, which in the absence of the natural leader was still governed by Flavius and Diodorus, encouraged by the presence of the monk Aphrates and the support of St. Basil.
St. Jerome entered into the conflict, perhaps without having a thorough knowledge of the situation. Rejecting Meletius, Vitalian, and Paulinus, he made a direct appeal to Pope Damasus in a letter still famous, but which the pope did not answer.
Discontented, Jerome returned to Antioch, let himself be ordained presbyter by Paulinus, and became the echo of Paulinist imputations against Meletius and his following.
**In 379 Meletius held a council of 150 bishops in order to assure the triumph of orthodoxy in the East, and published a profession of faith which was to meet the approval of the Council of Constantinople (382). The end of the schism was near at hand.**either bishop made it possible for the survivor to exercise full authority without hurting pride or discipline. This solution Meletius recognized as early as 381, but his friendly and peace- making proposals were rejected by Paulinus who refused to come to any agreement or settlement.
In the absence of the Bishop of Alexandria, the presidency rightfully fell to the Bishop of Antioch, whom the Emperor Theodosius received with marked deference, nor was the imperial favour unprofitable
to Meletius in his quality of president of the assembly.
It began by **electing Gregory of Nazianzus Bishop of Constantinople, and to the great satisfaction of the orthodox it was Meletius who enthroned him.****The Council immediately proceeded to confirm the Nicene faith, but during this important session Meletius died almost suddenly. **Feeling his end was near, he spent his remaining days re-emphasizing his eagerness for unity and peace.
Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York. newadvent.org/cathen/10161b.htm
 
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