No Pope = No Ecumenical Council

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As Vico well answered, the 2nd oecumenical council falsifies that claim. St Meletius, who presided it, was not even in communion with Rome:

Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York. newadvent.org/cathen/10161b.htm
Theodosius, whom Gratian declared Augustus, and his partner in the empire at Sirmich, on the 19th of January, soon after his arrival at Constantinople, concurred zealously in assembling the second general council which was opened at Constantinople, in the year 381. Only the prelates of the Eastern empire assisted, so that we find no mention of legates of Pope Damasus, and it was general, not in the celebration, but by the acceptation of the universal church.
St. Meletius presided as the first patriarch that was present; in it one hundred and fifty Catholic bishops, and thirty-six of the Macedonian sect, made their appearance; but all these latter chose rather to withdraw than to retract their error, or confess the divinity of the Holy Ghost.
The council approved of the election of St. Gregory of Nazianzen to the See of Constantinople, though he resigned it to satisfy the scruples and complaints of some, who, by mistake, thought it made against the Nicene canon, which forbade translations of bishops; which could not be understood of him who had never been allowed to take possession of his former see.
The council then proceeded to condemn the Macedonian heresy, and to publish the Nicene creed, with certain additions. In the second, among the seven canons of discipline, the two oriental patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch were acknowledged. In the third, the prerogative of honor, next to the see of Rome, is given to that of Constantinople, which before was subject to the metropolitan of Heraclea, in Thrace. This canon laid the foundation of the patriarchal dignity to which that see was raised by the council of Calcedon though not allowed for some time after in the West.
St. Meletius died at Constantinople while the council was sitting to the inexpressible grief of the fathers, and of the good emperor. By an evangelical meekness, which was his characteristic, he had converted the various trials that he had gone through into occasions of virtue, and had exceedingly endeared himself to all that had the happiness of his acquaintance. St. Chrysostom assures us, that his name was so venerable to his flock at Antioch, that they gave it their children, and mentioned it with all possible respect. They cut his image upon their seals, and upon their plate, and carved it in their houses.
One of the most eminent among the prelates, probably St. Amphilochius of Iconium, pronounced his panegyric in the council. St. Gregory of Nyssa made his funeral oration in presence of the emperor, in the great church, in the end of which he says, "He now sees God face to face, and prays for us, and for the ignorance of the people."
Five years after, St. Chrysostom, whom our saint had ordained deacon, spoke his elegant panegyric on the 12th of February on which his name occurs in the Menaea, and was inserted by Baronius in the Roman Martyrology; though it is uncertain whether this be the day of his death, or of his translation to Antioch. On account of his three banishments and great sufferings, he is styled a martyr by St. John Damascen.[6] His panegyrics, by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Chrysostom, are extant. See also Socrates, l.5, c. 5 p. 261. Sozom. l.4, c. 28, p. 586. Theodoret, l.3, c. 5, p. 128, l.2, c 27, p. 634. Jos. Assem. in Cal. Univer. t. 6, p. 125.
ewtn.com/library/MARY/MELETIUS.HTM
This gave rise to fresh troubles, and excited the indignation of the bishop of Rome. Chrysostom labored for the reconciliation of Rome and Alexandria to Flavian. But the party of Paulinus, after his death in 389, elected Evarius as successor († 392), and the schism continued down to the year 413 or 415, when the bishop Alexander succeeded in reconciling the old orthodox remnant with the successor of Meletius. The two parties celebrated their union by a splendid festival, and proceeded together in one majestic stream to the church.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc3.iii.ix.vi.html

So the 2nd oecumenical council was presided by a saint who was not in communion with Rome, with no participation of Rome, nor any legate. And st Meletius died out of communion with Rome.
 
Then here’s the updated versions

3 Chapters oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Three_Chapters last updated 2010
Pope Vigilius oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Pope_Vigilius last updated 2010
Fifth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople II, Session VII (553): “**But we bishops answered him (Pope Vigilius): "If your blessedness is willing to meet together with us and the holy Patriarchs, and the most religious bishops, and to treat of the Three Chapters and to give, in unison with us all, a suitable form of the orthodox faith, as the Holy Apostles and the holy Fathers and the four councils have done, we will hold thee as our head, as a father and primate.”

It is important here to see that for the holy Fathers, the place of the bishop of Rome as a Father and Pimate and head is conditional on his Faith. No orthodox faith, Pope not a head. Orthodox faith, Pope the head.

The Emperor refused to receive Constitutum returning it with the scornful answer “If you have condemned the three chapters I have no need of this new document for I have from you many others of the same content. If however you have in this new document departed from your earlier declarations, you have condemned yourself”. (~Mansi IX 349).
americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/deb_papacy/chris/open/#five
 
These are helpful clarifications. But the question arises: did the Catholic/Orthodox Church of the first millennium even hold to the infallibility of councils (whether in whole or in part)?
There is a tendency, post-Reformation, in wishing to define the faithful by their tenets of faith or their assent to a belief. But unless we are talking about something more than a useful taxonomy for the study of comparative religion, then there is a danger of falling into this sort of fallacy: “The true church is that which teaches the true faith” and “The true faith is what the true church teaches.”

One can, of course, try to set up an explicitly doctrinal test – “The true faith is contained in the three catholic creeds,” or “The true faith is that Jesus Christ is Lord,” although, if anyone objects that one’s chosen formula is too inclusive/exclusive, it is difficult to discover grounds on which to refute him. (Which is why I don’t quite understand threads such as this. There are special pleadings and unstated premises inherent to the question making dialogue impossible.)

Now, it is perfectly possible to avoid the question-begging assumption of defining Christians by examining their tenets, or the Church by its teaching. After all, the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which stands in pride of place at the beginning of the Codex of Justinian, did so very neatly, by referring to “that religion which from then to now declares itself to have been delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness.” Not only does it avoid the vice of circularity, but, suitably updated to refer to living authorities, it is remarkably easy of application; just what one would expect of the criterion of a divine message, intended for all, regardless of learning, capacity or circumstances.

And so it is with our relation to the councils. They are infallible because they are protected from error in a negative sense, not in a sense that “no error” could come out of them. And they are recognized as such because the majority of bishops and the Church recognized them as such, and we believe the Church to be infallible because God revealed this. It is in the actions of holding the councils and cutting off those errors by defining and warning the faithful in what those errors are that is recognized universally,.

(Of course, when we say we believe the Church to be infallible because God revealed this; and we believe God revealed it because it is affirmed by the Church; in the second proposition “because” is not taken in the same sense as in the first, for it does not signify the formal motive of faith, but only the indispensable condition of faith, that is, the infallible proposition of the object of faith. Such a sentiment can be applied to the councils as well.)

This is why it can be said religion rests on immediate experience. As Abbé Bremond said, “In the course of the normal development of man there occur moments in which the discursive reason gives place to a higher activity, imperfectly understood and indeed at first disquieting.” “This activity—this hidden inhabitant—is intuitive rather than logical in its methods. It knows by communion, not by observation. It cannot give a neat account of its experience: for this experience overflows all categories, defies all explanations, and seems at once self-loss, adventure, and perfected love.” This experience is “like bathing in a fathomless ocean, or breathing an intangible and limitless air. It gives contact and certitude, but not understanding: as breathing or bathing give us certitude about the air and the ocean, but no information about their chemical constitution.”

Revelation presupposes this experience and joins it with understanding.

As witnesses to the Resurrection and tasked with preaching and maintaining the Gospel, the Church enjoins understanding to that experience and has actively passed it on down through the generations. I think the traditional Catholic view as said by Monsignor Ronald Knox is analogous to the Orthodox understanding, when he says: “the faithful, be they many or few, be their doctrine apparently traditional or apparently innovatory, be their champions honest or unscrupulous, are simply those who are in visible communion with the see of Rome. No doubt, in the long run, this means the people who are so orthodox that Rome has seen no reason to excommunicate them, so that unity and orthodoxy still react upon one another” [of course without the emphasis on Rome herself.]

[continued in next post]
 
These are helpful clarifications. But the question arises: did the Catholic/Orthodox Church of the first millennium even hold to the infallibility of councils (whether in whole or in part)?
[continued from previous post]

An excellent example of this is to be found in Pascal’s Provincial Letters, when, writing to Fr Annat after the papal condemnation of Jansenism, he declared, “It is matter of thankfulness to God, then, father, that there is in reality no heresy in the Church.” Or what Lord Macaulay said when reflecting on the human mind by citing the Jansenist example: “We know through what strange loopholes the human mind contrives to escape, when it wishes to avoid a disagreeable inference from an admitted proposition. We know how long the Jansenists contrived to believe the Pope infallible in matters of doctrine, and at the same time to believe doctrines which he pronounced to be heretical.”

The point being that the councils needn’t be recognized at any time as “special” or “infallible” because they were, and are, acted upon as if they were and we are the descendants of those actors.

May I leave you with another quote from the same letter Bl.John Henry Newman wrote to the Duke:

“As to the condemnation of propositions all she tells us is, that the thesis condemned when taken as a whole, or, again, when viewed in its context, is heretical, or blasphemous, or impious, or whatever like epithet she affixes to it. We have only to trust her so far as to allow ourselves to be warned against the thesis, or the work containing it. Theologians employ themselves in determining what precisely it is that is condemned in that thesis or treatise; and doubtless in most cases they do so with success; but that determination is not de fide; all that is of faith is that there is in that thesis itself, which is noted, heresy or error, or other like peccant matter, as the case may be, such, that the censure is a peremptory command to theologians, preachers, students, and all other whom it concerns, to keep clear of it. But so light is this obligation, that instances frequently occur, when it is successfully maintained by some new writer, that the Pope’s act does not imply what it has seemed to imply, and questions which seemed to be closed, are after a course of years re-opened.” We saw much of this in the Second Vatican Council.
 
Now, it is perfectly possible to avoid the question-begging assumption of defining Christians by examining their tenets, or the Church by its teaching. After all, the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which stands in pride of place at the beginning of the Codex of Justinian, did so very neatly, by referring to “that religion which from then to now declares itself to have been delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness.” Not only does it avoid the vice of circularity, but, suitably updated to refer to living authorities, it is remarkably easy of application; just what one would expect of the criterion of a divine message, intended for all, regardless of learning, capacity or circumstances.
But the Codex of Justinian was neither a book of Holy Scripture nor an element of Holy Tradition, so it may have been in error. Even if we take the quote you cited as demonstrating what was normative in orthodox Christianity in 380 AD, the text does not suggest that the bishop and see of Rome will be prevented from falling into the official proclamation of heresy by protection of the Holy Spirit. Within eighty years, in fact, Rome and Alexandria had a falling-out over Chalcedon which has to this day not been resolved definitively (i.e., full communion is yet to be restored). So, why be Catholic and not Coptic?
And so it is with our relation to the councils. They are infallible because they are protected from error in a negative sense, not in a sense that “no error” could come out of them. And they are recognized as such because the majority of bishops and the Church recognized them as such, and we believe the Church to be infallible because God revealed this. It is in the actions of holding the councils and cutting off those errors by defining and warning the faithful in what those errors are that is recognized universally,.
(Of course, when we say we believe the Church to be infallible because God revealed this; and we believe God revealed it because it is affirmed by the Church; in the second proposition “because” is not taken in the same sense as in the first, for it does not signify the formal motive of faith, but only the indispensable condition of faith, that is, the infallible proposition of the object of faith. Such a sentiment can be applied to the councils as well.)
But if certain councils are legitimate because “the majority of bishops and the Church recognized them as such”, how does an individual (1) determine whether a statistical majority has been achieved, and (2) avoid the mistaken notion involved here of “X is the case because more people in category Y agree than disagree”?

And if “we believe the Church to be infallible because God revealed this”, we have to ask where (in the Bible or Tradition), when, and how God conveyed this information to us?
As witnesses to the Resurrection and tasked with preaching and maintaining the Gospel, the Church enjoins understanding to that experience and has actively passed it on down through the generations.
It’s impossible to say, given that the Western side seems to have innovated in at least a few ways during the past millennium.
I think the traditional Catholic view as said by Monsignor Ronald Knox is analogous to the Orthodox understanding, when he says: “the faithful, be they many or few, be their doctrine apparently traditional or apparently innovatory, be their champions honest or unscrupulous, are simply those who are in visible communion with the see of Rome. No doubt, in the long run, this means the people who are so orthodox that Rome has seen no reason to excommunicate them, so that unity and orthodoxy still react upon one another” [of course without the emphasis on Rome herself.]
But I have always seen Eastern Orthodox speak of intercommunion between churches as being founded upon adherence to a common apostolic faith, rather than acceptance of submission to one or more particular sees possessing divinely-guaranteed infallibility for discerning heresy.
 
An excellent example of this is to be found in Pascal’s Provincial Letters, when, writing to Fr Annat after the papal condemnation of Jansenism, he declared, “It is matter of thankfulness to God, then, father, that there is in reality no heresy in the Church.” Or what Lord Macaulay said when reflecting on the human mind by citing the Jansenist example: “We know through what strange loopholes the human mind contrives to escape, when it wishes to avoid a disagreeable inference from an admitted proposition. We know how long the Jansenists contrived to believe the Pope infallible in matters of doctrine, and at the same time to believe doctrines which he pronounced to be heretical.”
But you’re assuming that the Latin Catholic Church, rather than the Eastern Orthodox Church, is the Christian communion founded by Jesus himself. Both groups would concur in condemning the Jansenist errors, but they would diverge over the question of whether papal infallibility is orthodox or heterodox.
The point being that the councils needn’t be recognized at any time as “special” or “infallible” because they were, and are, acted upon as if they were and we are the descendants of those actors.
But Catholicism is claimed in large part to derive its legitimacy from the historical record, so if no one believed in conciliar infallibility thirteen hundred years ago, we should see no reason to adopt the view now either.

Besides, you seem to be saying, “The councils were accepted; therefore, they were rightly accepted.” But the Assyrian Church of the East refused Ephesus, and the Oriental Orthodox protested against Chalcedon–how can one know that they were not correct to do so?
May I leave you with another quote from the same letter Bl.John Henry Newman wrote to the Duke:
“As to the condemnation of propositions all she tells us is, that the thesis condemned when taken as a whole, or, again, when viewed in its context, is heretical, or blasphemous, or impious, or whatever like epithet she affixes to it. We have only to trust her so far as to allow ourselves to be warned against the thesis, or the work containing it. Theologians employ themselves in determining what precisely it is that is condemned in that thesis or treatise; and doubtless in most cases they do so with success; but that determination is not de fide; all that is of faith is that there is in that thesis itself, which is noted, heresy or error, or other like peccant matter, as the case may be, such, that the censure is a peremptory command to theologians, preachers, students, and all other whom it concerns, to keep clear of it. But so light is this obligation, that instances frequently occur, when it is successfully maintained by some new writer, that the Pope’s act does not imply what it has seemed to imply, and questions which seemed to be closed, are after a course of years re-opened.” We saw much of this in the Second Vatican Council.
But this all still assumes the Latin Catholic Church to be the body enjoying the protection of the Holy Spirit and thereby empowered to make such decisions. How would you go about convincing an Eastern Orthodox of the truth of this proposition? 🙂
 
But I have always seen Eastern Orthodox speak of intercommunion between churches as being founded upon adherence to a common apostolic faith, rather than acceptance of submission to one or more particular sees possessing divinely-guaranteed infallibility for discerning heresy.
And you are right.
Besides, you seem to be saying, “The councils were accepted; therefore, they were rightly accepted.” But the Assyrian Church of the East refused Ephesus, and the Oriental Orthodox protested against Chalcedon–how can one know that they were not correct to do so?
By logic and keeping the Tradition of the holy Fathers.
 
I see you still haven’t answered my question. Your argument is a fallacy called “appeal to authority.” I don’t care if the Catholic Encylopedia claims it. Show me something from the Acts of the Fifth that demonstrate that Pope Vigilius was actually anathematized. Where is his name mentioned with anathema in the Final Sentence? Certainly, other Ecum Councils had no problem anathematizing patriarchs by name. That’s a fourth question that you should think about, btw. Take all the time you want answering the questions. For now, your non-Catholic theory has no consistent logic behind it and is worthless as an apologetic.

Blessings,
Marduk
I apologise for the lateness of this posts - I was just reading the posts - 3 pages or so worth when I stumbled upon this illogic, which I coloured above.

An “Appeal to Authority” is when someone appeals to the authority of someone who’s not an authority on this particular subject.

If I cited my local doctor on an issue of astronomy, to which he’s not also an expert - that would be an “Appeal to Authority”

To say that a use of the Catholic Encyclopaedia is an Appeal to Authority is illogical - it’s a known and reliable source for Catholics on matters of religion.
 
The Assyrian (Persian) Church of the East became independent prior to the Council of Ephesus in 424 A.D. via the Synod of Dadyeshu. (They were part of the Assyrian empire which was often at war with the Byzantine empire.)
It is my understanding that the Assyrian Empire ceased to exist well before this time - c.609BC
 
Since the pope’s approval is necessary, i.e. **Absolutely essential, indespensable **why would anyone ague the pope’s approval isn’t also sufficient, i.e adequate, enough

To test this,

look at the 1st 7 E councils. They were all in the East. We as Catholics have to put on different hats in order to argue certain points. EO argue , the pope’s approval, doesn’t mean anything in the East. We could rebut, then they’d be local councils binding only on those in the East who participated and agreed to the decisions made in those councils. Could anyone in the East make it ecumenical, i.e. also binding on the West? No. None of them (bishops of whatever rank) were adequate or enough to make them ecumenical.

How about the West? Whose approval was absolutely essential? The pope. Could anyone else in the West (not the pope) fill that requirement? No. Could any one in the East fill that spot? No. That means the pope’s approval was not only necessary, but also adequate and enough (sufficient). The Catholic Church had 14 other ecumenical councils after those 1st 7 councils…

After the 7th E council, what about the Orthodox? Any pan Orthodox council in that 1300 year span? What’s necessary, absolutely essential, and indespensable, for such a pan Orthodox council to meet? Whatever that is, Is that also sufficient, i.e. adequate and enough for a binding decision for all Orthodox?
This is also illogical; it’s arguing that in the west only the pope had sufficient authority to make a council ‘ecumenical’ therefore by doing so in the west it was ‘ecumenical’ in regards the whole church!?!? 🤷
 
I was asking general questions, not responding to a statement in the thread about the pope’s approval being necessary, sufficient, or both, for a council to be ecumenical.

I’d like to see the earlier discussion resume about the Vigilius/Fifth Ecumenical Council episode (it just… stopped).
To answer your question the pope’s approval was not necessary - though of course in the course of wishing to have bonds of love and respect in the church it was always saught.

Catholics always work at apologetics backwards. They start with the premise that the Pope is and always was the de jure authority over the whole church and then seek out facts that fit that theory. This is another example.

Certainly the popes approved all 7 councils. But did they do so AT THE TIME they were accepted in the east?

No!

The popes had not approved the 1st council when it’s acts were read into the meeting of the 2nd council. Therefore the 2nd council accepted the 1st council without it having been approved of by the pope.

The infamous Canon XXVIII of Chalcedon was accepted by the eastern churches, despite it being refused by the papacy…. It wasn’t till about 1,000 years later that the papacy finally agreed to that canon!
 
It is my understanding that the Assyrian Empire ceased to exist well before this time - c.609BC
Its difficult to be part of something that ended before Christianity started! They were part of the Sassanid empire which was often at war with the Byzantine empire. Yet the Sassanids recognised the territory as Assyria (Asuristan**)**.
 
Its difficult to be part of something that ended before Christianity started! They were part of the Sassanid empire which was often at war with the Byzantine empire. Yet the Sassanids recognised the territory as Assyria (Asuristan**)**.
There are people (often Christian) today who identify themselves as Assyrians, too.

I have heard that some of the people claimed to be at the forefront of Islamic civilisation were in fact Assyrians.
 
The Bishop of Rome accepts or rejects the conciliar decisions without need to be present, or even to have legates. Historically this occurred with the local eastern council in 381.
  1. Council of Nicaea (325)
    ratified by Pope St. Sylvester I (314-335 pontificate)
  2. First Council of Constantinople (381)
    It was a local council of the east. Creed revision not received by the Latin Church until Chalcedon (451).
  3. Council of Ephesus (431)
    ratified by Pope Celestine I (421-432 pontificate)
447 dogma of filioque, Pope St. Leo the Great.
  1. Council of Chalcedon (451)
    conciliar acceptance of Tome of Pope St. Leo the Great, Creed of 381,
    rejection of canon 28 (that of canon 3 of Const. 381) by Pope St. Leo the Great,
    ratified by Pope St. Leo the Great (440-461 pontificate)
  2. Council of Constantinople II (553)
    reconfirmed the first four councils: Nicea 325, Constantinople 381, Ephesus 431, Chalcedon 451,
    ratified by Pope Vigilius (537-555 pontificate)
That is the way Rome looks at the matter now. It was not the way it was looked at outside of Rome during the period of these councils, i.e. it was not generally thought outside of Rome that papal “ratification” is what made a council ecumenical or not. Of course, the East was generally wanted the Bishop of Rome’s approval of councils for the sake of unity of the Church, but that is not the same thing.
 
Ecumenical Councils have been called against the wishes of the popes, and chaired by people not in communion with Rome, or not even seen as legitimate clerics in Roman eyes.

However in the deceptively simple task of Catholic apologetics one can simply apply papal approval (when it was subsequently given) backwards into history.

Likewise if the east didn’t display any evidence of bowing to the Papacy, but still in interests of Christian love implored the papacy on a matter - then it’s taken by Catholic apologists to mean that they were doing so because they were under the authority of the pope.
 
That is the way Rome looks at the matter now. It was not the way it was looked at outside of Rome during the period of these councils, i.e. it was not generally thought outside of Rome that papal “ratification” is what made a council ecumenical or not. Of course, the East was generally wanted the Bishop of Rome’s approval of councils for the sake of unity of the Church, but that is not the same thing.
Vico’s own evidence proves my point.

In his post he has the line

It was a local council of the east. Creed revision not received by the Latin Church until Chalcedon (451).

This is evidence that a council DID NOT have papal approval for about 100 years… yet it was still accepted in the east.
 
Another thing oft used by Catholic Apologists is the Tome of Leo - a letter he sent to a Coucil.

It was approved of by that council

Does this evidence papal supremacy? Only if one already assumes papal supremacy.

It can just as easily be seen that the council accepted it because it’s a statement of truth.
 
Vico’s own evidence proves my point.

In his post he has the line

It was a local council of the east. Creed revision not received by the Latin Church until Chalcedon (451).

This is evidence that a council DID NOT have papal approval for about 100 years… yet it was still accepted in the east.
There were many independent synods east and west. Over time they came to be known and acceptable or not to other jurisdictions.
 
There were many independent synods east and west. Over time they came to be known and acceptable or not to other jurisdictions.
True, but Ecumenical Councils are called as such because it is universally accepted. So it is true that the Pope needs to accept a council to make it Ecumenical. What is false here is the assumption that it is the Pope’s acceptance because he is the supreme pontiff of the entire Church that makes a council Ecumenical. A pope can accept a council but if the Patriarch of Alexandria or Constantinople does not accept it, it still doesn’t make the council Ecumenical. That little detail is conveniently left off by Apologists.
 
True, but Ecumenical Councils are called as such because it is universally accepted. So it is true that the Pope needs to accept a council to make it Ecumenical. What is false here is the assumption that it is the Pope’s acceptance because he is the supreme pontiff of the entire Church that makes a council Ecumenical. A pope can accept a council but if the Patriarch of Alexandria or Constantinople does not accept it, it still doesn’t make the council Ecumenical. That little detail is conveniently left off by Apologists.
To put what you are saying in a logically rigorous form, a pope’s acceptance (or ratification) is a necessary condition of a council being recognized as ecumenical, but not a sufficient condition.

I wouldn’t actually go as far as that. I think in Orthodox ecclesiology it is presently unclear whether a pope’s ratification is a necessary condition. I’m not sure that question will ever be, or ever need to be, resolved. Hopefully not. Hopefully the next ecumenical council will be unquestionably ecumenical, with full and equal particpation by the Bishop of Rome and all canonical bishops.
 
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