No Priest At Confession

[Xantippe]

Functionally speaking, they’re not identical; the difference isn’t merely drama.

The OP had access to confession, but by showing up three minutes before the scheduled time ended, it’s difficult to suggest that he had a “firm resolution” to avail himself of that access. (Note that it’s not not possible to make an airtight case here: maybe the OP was at work, and showing up at 4:27 was, objectively speaking, the earliest he could’ve made it there. Yet, even in that case, the question to be asked was whether this was the only opportunity he had to get to confession, whether at that church or at another. However, it seems that, since we’re not talking North Korea, it’s likely that there was sufficient opportunity to get to confession. If not, then that’s a different story. However, assuming that lack of any other possible access is the case, without anything to support that presumption, is more an attempt to read your own facts into the case than it is a reasonable summary of the facts, and leads to the invalid conclusion you’re asserting.)

Note, too, the fundamental difference between the OP’s story and your North Korea example: the North Korean Catholic knows that he does not have access to a priest, whereas the OP knows only that he failed to take advantage of the access to a priest that’s available to him. Critical difference, there.

The OP did not realize until we informed him that arriving at 4:27 (with confession ending at 4:30) was “late”. (That’s an easy mistake to make through inexperience–it also took me rather a while to figure out that if confession is scheduled for an hour block, you’d better arrive within the first 20 minutes.) As of 4:27, confession was unavailable.

Question for Gorgias: if the first scheduled confession time during the weekday is during the working day (perhaps before a noon Mass, let’s say), is one obligated to take time off work in order to go to that first available confession time, rather than to wait until a confession time outside of working hours? Because that sounds rather unreasonable to me and quite a provocation to the scrupulous.

 

[Gorgias]

The OP did not realize until we informed him that arriving at 4:27 (with confession ending at 4:30) was “late”.

No… in fact, that’s completely false – the OP himself, in his first post, mentioned that he was “running late”; in other words, yes, he realized that arriving at 4:27 was ‘late’.

Question for Gorgias: if the first scheduled confession time during the weekday is during the working day (perhaps before a noon Mass, let’s say), is one obligated to take time off work in order to go to that first available confession time, rather than to wait until a confession time outside of working hours? Because that sounds rather unreasonable to me and quite a provocation to the scrupulous.

No, but that’s not what’s in play here. The question isn’t whether there was confession available at all, but whether there was confession available at a time that the OP could go. He admits – by saying that he was running late – that he was at least putatively able to go to this session (and one might presume that other times were available… this not being North Korea and all ). The catechism simply says “as soon as possible,” not “the first minute that confession is offered in a 100-mile radius of you.” You seem poised to make the case that, if he didn’t get to confession that day, it’s the same case as if he were legitimately unable to go at any time or place leading up to his participation at Mass. It isn’t the same situation, and in any case, it’s really stretching the point. There’s no sin in missing confession… but there’s no implicit or explicit “get out of jail free card” if you do so, either.

It still comes down to the same analysis: we don’t know all the facts of the situation, but it’s incorrect to suggest that there’s some sort of dispensation from the obligation to receive sacramental absolution in the face of any sort of attempt (in good faith or not) to get to confession.

 

[DarkLight]

No… in fact, that’s completely false – the OP himself, in his first post, mentioned that he was “running late”; in other words, yes, he realized that arriving at 4:27 was ‘late’.

Though honestly I would presume that “running late” is usually used for circumstances where one intended to be earlier, myself? Things happen sometimes and one ends up arriving later than one intended.

I’d be annoyed if the priest really was leaving confession super-early though. 3 minutes early is fine, but if confession is 3-4 I’d be pretty upset if I arrived at 3:30 or even 3:45 and the priest wasn’t there.

 

[Xantippe]

Though honestly I would presume that “running late” is usually used for circumstances where one intended to be earlier, myself? Things happen sometimes and one ends up arriving later than one intended.

I’d be annoyed if the priest really was leaving confession super-early though. 3 minutes early is fine, but if confession is 3-4 I’d be pretty upset if I arrived at 3:30 or even 3:45 and the priest wasn’t there.

In my experience, if there’s a 60 minute slot, it’s really important to get there in the first 20-30 minutes. Once the line is dealt with, quite a few priests will head off to do something else rather than stick around until the end of the 60 minutes.

I don’t think that’s necessarily very wrong of them, but at the same time, I certainly would not heap blame on a newbie who didn’t understand the nuances.

Time is very cultural and contextual–on the one hand, you need to be early or on time to Mass, but on the other hand, if you arrive 10 minutes early to a party, your hostess will quietly hate you. It takes time to learn all this stuff.

 

[catholictiger]

In my experience, if there’s a 60 minute slot, it’s really important to get there in the first 20-30 minutes. Once the line is dealt with, quite a few priests will head off to do something else rather than stick around until the end of the 60 minutes.

I don’t think that’s necessarily very wrong of them, but at the same time, I certainly would not heap blame on a newbie who didn’t understand the nuances.

Time is very cultural and contextual–on the one hand, you need to be early or on time to Mass, but on the other hand, if you arrive 10 minutes early to a party, your hostess will quietly hate you. It takes time to learn all this stuff.

I don’t think a priest should leave the confessional until he feels that he needs to get ready for mass or some other important thing comes up. If a priest is in a parish and only a handful of people go to confession with him weekly, bring a book into the confessional and read it while you are waiting till someone comes in. IF you say we have confessions from 3 to 3:50 PM mass starts at 4pm and you are out of the confessional at 3:30 it is likely the priest will miss someone who would come confess.

Again I strongly suggest that you go to confession when it starts but I don’t like priests leaving when there is 20 or 30 minuets left in the confession slot there is no need to do that.

 

[catholictiger]

I saw the discussion on I went to the Church to confess having full intention to confess but I wasn’t able to go in time. After Mass driving home I got killed in a car accident not having confessed my mortal sin.

I think it is reasonable to think that this person would still receive the Mercy of God because he had the full intention to go to confession but through no fault of his own he wasn’t able to and died in a state of mortal sin.

The Church teaches that those who die in a state of mortal sin will go to hell. Even though we hold this to be true, we can’t say that God is limited by the earthly rules he put in place. If in God’s infinite wisdom he knows that if this person lived one more day or if he wasn’t killed in that car accident he would have gotten to confession and been forgiven of his sins it is very possible that God would been merciful to him.

but one last note.

I think this is the case for every single soul especially those we aren’t sure about. The Church doesn’t really have an official position on those who die on their way to confession with the full intention to confess. Rather we entrust them to the mercy of God and pray that God may have mercy on them.

Even though the Church is silent on that matter, I have faith that if someone who is going to confession dies on the way, or they can’t make confession and they die almost immediately after the mass without receiving the last rites, will be forgiven by God’s mercy.

But the Church says that we entrust their soul to God’s mercy. I would think this is the case with all souls even the ones we have a good idea died in a state of mortal sin. There is a reason we don’t say people are in hell because we don’t know the mind of God or the state of a persons soul.

 

[thistle]

I saw the discussion on I went to the Church to confess having full intention to confess but I wasn’t able to go in time. After Mass driving home I got killed in a car accident not having confessed my mortal sin.

I think it is reasonable to think that this person would still receive the Mercy of God because he had the full intention to go to confession but through no fault of his own he wasn’t able to and died in a state of mortal sin.

The Church teaches that those who die in a state of mortal sin will go to hell. Even though we hold this to be true, we can’t say that God is limited by the earthly rules he put in place. If in God’s infinite wisdom he knows that if this person lived one more day or if he wasn’t killed in that car accident he would have gotten to confession and been forgiven of his sins it is very possible that God would been merciful to him.

but one last note.

I think this is the case for every single soul especially those we aren’t sure about. The Church doesn’t really have an official position on those who die on their way to confession with the full intention to confess. Rather we entrust them to the mercy of God and pray that God may have mercy on them.

Even though the Church is silent on that matter, I have faith that if someone who is going to confession dies on the way, or they can’t make confession and they die almost immediately after the mass without receiving the last rites, will be forgiven by God’s mercy.

But the Church says that we entrust their soul to God’s mercy. I would think this is the case with all souls even the ones we have a good idea died in a state of mortal sin. There is a reason we don’t say people are in hell because we don’t know the mind of God or the state of a persons soul.

Let me repeat. The intention of going to Confession does NOT put you in a state of grace.

As to your other point about entrusting their souls to God’s mercy, that teaching applies to unbaptised infants and not someone who is late for Confession. The Church clearly teaches that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. We do not know the state of anyone’s soul at death but we can say with certainty that if they die in a state of mortal sin they go to Hell. There is no wiggle room. God gave the Church authority to loose and bind and what is bound on earth is bound in Heaven. This means all Church teachings have the authority of God behind them and God has bound himself. If God then allowed people who die in a state of mortal sin to be saved it would mean he would have lied which of course is not possible.

The only possible way to be saved if dying before getting to Confession is to have made a genuine act of perfect contrition which is conditional upon the intent to get to Confession as soon as possible.

 

[Gorgias]

I think it is reasonable to think that this person would still receive the Mercy of God because he had the full intention to go to confession but through no fault of his own he wasn’t able to and died in a state of mortal sin.

A couple of thoughts, here. First off, we have no idea that the OP’s failure to get to confession was “through no fault of his own.” He said he was running late, but we don’t know any of the details.

Second, even if it were the case that it wasn’t his fault, that doesn’t prove the case you’re making here. Now, don’t get me wrong – I fervently hope that this does happen! – and I know that, if I were to die in that situation, I would hope on the mercy of God. It wouldn’t be a slam-dunk; as you and thistle point out, it’s the teaching of the Church that those who die in a state of mortal sin, do not attain to salvation. Still, I’d hope God would have mercy on me. I completely agree with you on this point: that hope for salvation – in other words, that hope in God’s mercy – isn’t unreasonable.

But, this is why Xanthippe’s case doesn’t fit the situation; she’s asking about judgment in a way that makes us call upon the hope for mercy, if I understand her intent correctly. But, even if that’s the case, it’s not a sure and certain thing – although we might hope for mercy in this case, it’s not guaranteed.

Finally, it’s important to note that this isn’t (strictly speaking) what the OP is asking. Xanthippe’s case doesn’t really apply here, since the OP isn’t asking about the prospects of God’s mercy at the point of his death. Rather, he’s only asking whether he could go to communion. Since we don’t know whether he’s in the state of mortal sin, we can’t answer definitively; but, we can answer “if you were in a state of mortal sin, then you’re still in that state; if you’re in a state of mortal sin, then, no, you cannot receive communion until you receive sacramental absolution (or until you have perfect contrition with the intent to go to confession ASAP).”

 

[Gorgias]

This means all Church teachings have the authority of God behind them and God has bound himself. If God then allowed people who die in a state of mortal sin to be saved it would mean he would have lied which of course is not possible.

If that were the case – that is, if God were bound by His rules – then Jesus would have been unable to save us and make it possible for us to attain to Heaven. After all, the Jews had broken the Mosaic covenant; they and God were bound by its provisions, and, as it were, they were therefore deserving of death. Jesus didn’t come to earth to say, “oh wow, you guys are really screwed! sorry… the Father and I are bound by our promises, and we can’t make God a liar now, can we?”

The only possible way to be saved if dying before getting to Confession is to have made a genuine act of perfect contrition which is conditional upon the intent to get to Confession as soon as possible.

… or that Jesus might have mercy in the particular judgment following your death. Is that dogmatic or doctrinally assured to happen? Nope. Is it impossible? Nope.

 

[janiruchan]

yeah…this is usually my problem.Though parishes here have a definite time and schedule for confession, not every time the priests are available.Usually when I meet one, I see most are wearied from their works…
So I pray for more priests…

 

[Sirach2]

I saw the discussion on I went to the Church to confess having full intention to confess but I wasn’t able to go in time. After Mass driving home I got killed in a car accident not having confessed my mortal sin.

I think it is reasonable to think that this person would still receive the Mercy of God because he had the full intention to go to confession but through no fault of his own he wasn’t able to and died in a state of mortal sin.

Yes, this is the teaching of the angelic Doctor, St. Thomas Aquinas. Pardon of mortal sin depends upon the contriteness of the heart on his way to confession, before the car accident killed him.

I answer that**, It is impossible for a mortal actual sin to be pardoned without penance, if we speak of penance as a virtue. [He is speaking about repentance and purpose of amendment] For, as sin is an offense against God, He pardons sin in the same way as he pardons an offense committed against Him. …] It is impossible that God pardon a man for an offense, without his will being changed. Now the offense of mortal sin is due to man’s will being turned away from God, through being turned to some mutable good. Consequently, for the pardon of this offense against God, it is necessary for man’s will to be so changed as to turn to God and to renounce having turned to something else in the aforesaid manner, together with a purpose of amendment**; all of which belongs to the nature of penance as a virtue.

But the sacrament of Penance, as stated above (Q[88], A[3]), is perfected by the priestly office of binding and loosing, without which God can forgive sins, even as Christ pardoned the adulterous woman, as related in Jn. 8, and the woman that was a sinner, as related in Luke 7, whose sins, however, He did not forgive without the virtue of penance ]: for as Gregory states, “He drew inwardly by grace,” i.e. by penance, “her whom He received outwardly by His mercy.”

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum538.htm

 

[Xantippe]

yeah…this is usually my problem.Though parishes here have a definite time and schedule for confession, not every time the priests are available.Usually when I meet one, I see most are wearied from their works…
So I pray for more priests…

Yes–in the OP’s case, we can’t even be sure when confession ended or whether there actually was a priest available at the start of confession time or at all.

I’ve certainly seen both permutations–either the priest was not there promptly at the appointed time (10-15 minutes late), or he was gone well before the end of the 60 minute slot. And occasionally, I believe there have been times when nobody showed up, despite posted times and there not being any special holiday.

I wouldn’t point fingers in these cases at the priests (as I have no idea what they were doing instead–there might have been an emergency), but it’s definitely a reason to go easier on the OP.

 

[Sirach2]

Now, what state of grace would that put me in? I made an attempt to go to confession, but no one was there. I dont know exactly if i have any mortal sin on my soul. So am able to take communion tomorrow? Id be really hurt if not.

If you were unaware of being in mortal sin, then by the teaching of the Church, you are not, since two of the three conditions that make it mortal are missing: 1) full knowledge of the gravity of the sin, and 2) willingness to commit the sin anyway.

But as far as your **intent **and attempt to go to confession is concerned, consider this teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas:

Secondly, the sacrament of baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:** for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized,**** but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving baptism. **And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for baptism, which desire is the outcome of “faith that worketh by charity,” whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article2

Since God is not bound by the visible sacraments, as he says, which includes Penance, if there is true contrition in the heart together with firm purpose of amendment, even if the person dies before having received the sacrament, God knows the heart, and “sanctifies man inwardly.”

Be at peace, and go to confession as soon as you can, but consider well whether all three conditions that make a sin mortal were there in your case.

 

[catholictiger]

If you were unaware of being in mortal sin, then by the teaching of the Church, you are not, since two of the three conditions that make it mortal are missing: 1) full knowledge of the gravity of the sin, and 2) willingness to commit the sin anyway.

But as far as your **intent **and attempt to go to confession is concerned, consider this teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas:

Since God is not bound by the visible sacraments, as he says, which includes Penance, if there is true contrition in the heart together with firm purpose of amendment, even if the person dies before having received the sacrament, God knows the heart, and “sanctifies man inwardly.”

Be at peace, and go to confession as soon as you can, but consider well whether all three conditions that make a sin mortal were there in your case.

what Thomas says I completely agree with but we can’t know the mind of God. So all we can do is trust them to the mercy of God. I do fully believe those who die in the situation explained will obtain salvation but again we don’t know this with certainty. The only certainty we can have with forgiveness of sins is through the sacrament. God willed that the primary way our sins are forgiven is through the sacrament so always go to that.

 

[Sirach2]

what Thomas says I completely agree with but we can’t know the mind of God. So all we can do is trust them to the mercy of God. I do fully believe those who die in the situation explained will obtain salvation but again we don’t know this with certainty. The only certainty we can have with forgiveness of sins is through the sacrament. God willed that the primary way our sins are forgiven is through the sacrament so always go to that.

:yup: Yes, this is true. So it is somewhat cruel to dogmatically condemn anyone, even Judas, without this certain knowledge. All we can do is speak generally, and entrust our friends and loved ones to God’s mercy.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I’m personally of the opinion that if Confession is scheduled to last until 4:30, it should last until 4:30 My parish only offers a single 30 minute session each month. Sometimes I literally can’t make it until 4:25 I’ve never shown up during a regularly scheduled time and found an empty confessional I have had the priest ask me to try to make it quick since he has to say Mass, but I don’t have a problem with that.

I can sympathize with the priests who schedule Confession and don’t have anybody (or very few people) show up. Our priest reads a book or works on crossword puzzles He used to play games, respond to emails/Facebook or do other such things on his phone until some parishioners complained that it wasn’t appropriate activity for a confessional. How they found out he was playing on his phone in the confessional I still have no idea because this was during the stretch when I was the only person showing up for it. Regardless, he always stayed until the end on the off chance that someone else might show up.

 

[DarkLight]

In my experience, if there’s a 60 minute slot, it’s really important to get there in the first 20-30 minutes. Once the line is dealt with, quite a few priests will head off to do something else rather than stick around until the end of the 60 minutes.

I don’t think that’s necessarily very wrong of them, but at the same time, I certainly would not heap blame on a newbie who didn’t understand the nuances.

Time is very cultural and contextual–on the one hand, you need to be early or on time to Mass, but on the other hand, if you arrive 10 minutes early to a party, your hostess will quietly hate you. It takes time to learn all this stuff.

My problem here would be that unless there are a wide variety of different confession times very close by, you run the risk of someone simply not being able to make it. At the very least confession should be scheduled so that those reliant on public transit don’t have to stand around outside the church for a lengthy amount of time in order to attend confession, especially not up here where we’re prone to spending half the year below freezing.

The town I’m in there’s only two parishes and they both offer confession at the same time. Being in a rural section, the buses do not run very frequently on weekends. So my choices are spend 2 and a half hours waiting outside the church, or show up about 30 minutes into confession time. Come winter if the priest leaves early I’d be pretty mad.

A lot of parishes I’ve found tend to forget that sort of thing, that not everyone can just hop in the car at 3:30 on a saturday afternoon and be there by 4.

 

[Xantippe]

The town I’m in there’s only two parishes and they both offer confession at the same time. Being in a rural section, the buses do not run very frequently on weekends. So my choices are spend 2 and a half hours waiting outside the church, or show up about 30 minutes into confession time. Come winter if the priest leaves early I’d be pretty mad.

A lot of parishes I’ve found tend to forget that sort of thing, that not everyone can just hop in the car at 3:30 on a saturday afternoon and be there by 4.

Gah.

Good points.

 

[Casilda]

So i just tried to go to confession, and the priest wasnt. Confessional lights off and doors shut. Now i was running a bit late, but by my count, i still had 3 minutes until 430pm; which is when confession is over. The church was dark and it seemed like others were waiting for confession too, but im not sure. This is really unsual for my parish. I guess its possible our pastor called confession early, but again, i dont know. All i know is i went in and no one was there. Now, what state of grace would that put me in? I made an attempt to go to confession, but no one was there. I dont know exactly if i have any mortal sin on my soul. So am able to take communion tomorrow? Id be really hurt if not.:(

These are very heavy questions we wrestle with our conscience, our soul. They are what weigh us down. We know our remedy, confess, go and sin no more. Yes, being hurt is a serious reality. I know your plight. I have traveled across town over an hour if you count trying to find parking. In my case I was on time, early in fact. No priest showed up at all. Others were waiting and we were told there would be no confessions today. Hmmm. Very sad state of affairs. May I make a suggestion? Just like we have lay people handing out communion, can there somehow be stand-ins for absent priests or busy priests to take down confessions to relieve such heavy souls? Its one of the reasons they walk out the door never to return again, yet remain believers of Christ but disillusioned with the current church system. Its not working.

Edited to add another helpful suggestion: the stand-ins could be priests in training, seminary students, monks or other religious. Deacons? Ministers of confession? Moses himself had many elders helping him.

Okay, I am aware my logic is flawed. Only Aaron and his line could be priests. Only anointed and ordained priests can loose our sins. But in this age of numerical disparity of priests and faithful…something has to change.

 

[DarkLight]

These are very heavy questions we wrestle with our conscience, our soul. They are what weigh us down. We know our remedy, confess, go and sin no more. Yes, being hurt is a serious reality. I know your plight. I have traveled across town over an hour if you count trying to find parking. In my case I was on time, early in fact. No priest showed up at all. Others were waiting and we were told there would be no confessions today. Hmmm. Very sad state of affairs. May I make a suggestion? Just like we have lay people handing out communion, can there somehow be stand-ins for absent priests or busy priests to take down confessions to relieve such heavy souls? Its one of the reasons they walk out the door never to return again, yet remain believers of Christ but disillusioned with the current church system. Its not working.

Edited to add another helpful suggestion: the stand-ins could be priests in training, seminary students, monks or other religious. Deacons? Ministers of confession? Moses himself had many elders helping him.

Okay, I am aware my logic is flawed. Only Aaron and his line could be priests. Only anointed and ordained priests can loose our sins. But in this age of numerical disparity of priests and faithful…something has to change.

The way to do it would be to have lay people do whatever is possible of the things that are not reserved to the priesthood, thus freeing up time for the priests to hear confessions.