No Prime Mover? -- Kaku

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An alternative name for the Prime Mover is the First Mover. How do you propose to define “First”, or indeed “Prime” without any reference to time?
This may or may not move quickly beyond my capabilities to argue… but the claim to be made is that something can indeed be prior in terms of causality without being prior in terms of time. Take, for example, a small chain of simultaneous efficient causes: my hand, pushing a red box, pushing a blue box… given that all three are in motion at the same time. My hand is “first” in this chain, insofar as it is the source of motion for the whole set. Again in terms of efficient causality, my hand comes “before” the red box, which in turn comes “before” the blue box. But terms of time, and considering the whole set while in motion together, it would be silly to speak about either the motion of my hand or the motion of red box as being “prior” in time to motion of the blue box, since they are in fact all taking place simultaneously. (While I’m here, let me just say that this kind of thing, a chain of simultaneous causes, is the only one in which you can successfully argue for the absurdity of an infinite regress.)
How would you define “start” in the absence of time?
I don’t think I would… seeing as how I would say that any motion necessarily requires time… and in the context you quoted me, I was referring to the beginning of some motion.
The Prime Mover cannot be a cause in the absence of time…
It might also help to point out that I’m not actually talking about any motion happening in the absence of time… but rather the impossibility of speaking of simultaneous motions as being “before” or “after” one another in terms of time.
The Prime Mover cannot be a cause without actually having caused something.
Uh… yes. Or perhaps better “without actually causing something” (present tense).
The Prime Mover cannot be ultimate because it must depend on at least these two other things.
I have no idea what exactly that means, but I’m pretty sure I would disagree for some reason. 🙂 😛
 
What do you guys think about this?
I am wondering: (1) how did the gas molecules find their way into the container? (2) is the gas under pressure? (3) is someone or something shaking the container? (4) is the container on earth - the planet that’s moving through space at nearly 70,000 mph, (5) are the gas molecules subject to any initial inertia? (6) is this the only gas molecule left in the container? (7) did the rest get sucked out by a vacuum pump? Oh well, interesting premise; stupid hypothetical.

jd
 
A Prime Mover cannot be a Prime Mover unless and until something has actually been moved. Hence a Prime Mover cannot exist alone, but also requires the existence of at least one other thing that has been moved. Taken on its own, in the absence of anything else, the concept of a Prime Mover makes not sense at all. It is dependent on the existence of at least one moved thing.
You’re confusing a description with a definition. “Prime Mover” is not a description of the essence of God, but merely a description of a relation of one thing to another. What’s more, God’s nature doesn’t change at all because of this description, since the description is actually describing something about the objects moved rather than something essential about the Prime Mover.

This goes into the subject of “real relations”, also discussed by Aquinas. A real relation is a relationship that in some way defines the nature of the subject (hence “real”), while a relationship that is merely a connection made between two things is a mental relation. For example, being a creature is a real relation to a creator, because it says something about the fundamental nature of the thing, but it’s not necessarily a real relation in the creator; for example, a footprint has a real relation to my foot, but my foot doesn’t have a real relation to my footprint. My foot is unchanged, and is not defined in any way by its relation to the impression in the sand, but the impression is wholly formally defined by my foot.

Peace and God bless!
 
You’re confusing a description with a definition. “Prime Mover” is not a description of the essence of God, but merely a description of a relation of one thing to another.
So you are saying that God changes from being “potential Prime Mover but not yet” to “actual prime Mover”?
What’s more, God’s nature doesn’t change at all because of this description, since the description is actually describing something about the objects moved rather than something essential about the Prime Mover.
I am Buddhist, so to me there is nothing that does not change. If God’s nature does not change, then we can separate God into the parts that change (like being a Prime Mover) and the parts that do not change. If God is permanent then we can discard all the parts that change since they are not permanent - they are not really part of God. All that is left of God is the unchanging parts. Unfortunately those unchanging parts cannot act. Consider what an unchanging God would look like: On the first day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the second day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the third day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the fourth day …

Action in time requires change, at the very least the change from about-to-act to currently-acting. An unchanging entity cannot act in time, or may possibly be confined to one single action endlessly repeated.

In logic something cannot have two opposed properties - it cannot be both changing and unchanging. If we find such a case we must analyse the original something into two separate things and continue our analysis.
This goes into the subject of “real relations”, also discussed by Aquinas. A real relation is a relationship that in some way defines the nature of the subject (hence “real”), while a relationship that is merely a connection made between two things is a mental relation. For example, being a creature is a real relation to a creator, because it says something about the fundamental nature of the thing, but it’s not necessarily a real relation in the creator; for example, a footprint has a real relation to my foot, but my foot doesn’t have a real relation to my footprint. My foot is unchanged, and is not defined in any way by its relation to the impression in the sand, but the impression is wholly formally defined by my foot.
A footprint is not required to exist for there to be a foot - walking on solid rock my foot may not leave a footprint. This is not the case with creator and creature. There can be no creator if nothing has been created, as with the impossibility of a childless parent. The existence of at least one created thing is absolutely required for the existence of a creator. I see the relation between creator and created as a “real relation” in both directions.

rossum
 
So you are saying that God changes from being “potential Prime Mover but not yet” to “actual prime Mover”?
Seems to be the case, although “potential Prime Mover but not yet” might still be couched in temporal terms that have no meaning before time.
A footprint is not required to exist for there to be a foot - walking on solid rock my foot may not leave a footprint. This is not the case with creator and creature. There can be no creator if nothing has been created, as with the impossibility of a childless parent. The existence of at least one created thing is absolutely required for the existence of a creator. I see the relation between creator and created as a “real relation” in both directions.
“Creator” is a term parallel to “Prime Mover”. Before God created or moved a universe, He was still God.
 
So you are saying that God changes from being “potential Prime Mover but not yet” to “actual prime Mover”?
Seems to be the case, although “potential Prime Mover, but not yet” still might be couched in temporal terms that have no meaning before time.
I am Buddhist, so to me there is nothing that does not change. If God’s nature does not change, then we can separate God into the parts that change (like being a Prime Mover) and the parts that do not change. If God is permanent then we can discard all the parts that change since they are not permanent - they are not really part of God. All that is left of God is the unchanging parts. Unfortunately those unchanging parts cannot act. Consider what an unchanging God would look like: On the first day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the second day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the third day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the fourth day …
“Prime Mover” is a title, a name. It is not a “part” of God.
The unchanging parts of God (which I believe is the whole God, and not properly said to be “parts”), can be said to be unchanging if it has been doing the same thing since the beginning of time. We say that God is omniscient, meaning He sees everything, simultaneously. Everything is always Present to God. What I want to express is that God, from the beginning of time, has had this one thought, one eternal thought that we call The Universe.
A footprint is not required to exist for there to be a foot - walking on solid rock my foot may not leave a footprint. This is not the case with creator and creature. There can be no creator if nothing has been created, as with the impossibility of a childless parent. The existence of at least one created thing is absolutely required for the existence of a creator. I see the relation between creator and created as a “real relation” in both directions.
“Creator” and “Prime Mover” are parallel terms. Before God created or moved a universe, He was still God.
 
So you are saying that God changes from being “potential Prime Mover but not yet” to “actual prime Mover”?
No, because God is not “Prime Mover” as a Divine Attribute. “Prime Mover” is a human description of an external reality, not a property of God. It is more accurate to say that God can potentially be described as “Prime Mover”, since God is not “potentially” anything.
I am Buddhist, so to me there is nothing that does not change.
One of the fundamental flaws of Buddhism, and a fatal one at that. If there is no fundamental, unchanging being, then being can not exist at all. Buddhism is fundamentally at odds with itself over this, and that is why it is not only a false religion, but a poor philosophy. That is the subject of another thread, however.
If God’s nature does not change, then we can separate God into the parts that change (like being a Prime Mover) and the parts that do not change.
God is not composed of parts, and as I’ve said Prime Mover is not a proper attribute of God at any rate.
All that is left of God is the unchanging parts. Unfortunately those unchanging parts cannot act. Consider what an unchanging God would look like: On the first day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the second day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the third day God said, “Let there be light”. And on the fourth day …
You seem to have some confusion about what acting actually is. This may be owing to your Buddhism, or maybe your misunderstanding is what leads you to be Buddhist. When God says “Let there be light”, it is not God that changes, but the created universe. God speaks one eternal Word, but temporally this Word manifests differently at different moments. This is not because of a change in the Word, but because of the fragmented nature of time and created nature. God exists in the “eternal now”; everything is present to Him at once. God says “Let there be light” in the same moment God says “let there be Ghosty”, but the flow of time brings this single statement forth in different ways at different moments.
Action in time requires change, at the very least the change from about-to-act to currently-acting. An unchanging entity cannot act in time, or may possibly be confined to one single action endlessly repeated.
An action does not require change at all. Action is nothing else than an object “actually being” something, and this includes “actually existing”. An eternal foot that doesn’t move, but makes an eternal footprint underneath it in eternal sand is still acting on the sand. If the foot wasn’t acting on the sand, the sand would not bear the impression of the foot. Action does not require a change from “about to act” to “actually acting”, it simply requires actualization.
There can be no creator if nothing has been created, as with the impossibility of a childless parent. The existence of at least one created thing is absolutely required for the existence of a creator. I see the relation between creator and created as a “real relation” in both directions.
It would only be a real relation if “creator” was an essential term of God, and not an external description based on another object’s relation to Him. “Creator” is not an essential, proper term for God; it does define Him essentially. It is a term that is formed by looking at creatures, and then applying the opposite term to God. God could not be called “creator” without creating something from nothing, but God could be called God, or Theos, or Word, or Father, or Holy Spirit, without any change whatsoever, and these terms refer to the essential nature of God and not to external descriptors.

Peace and God bless!
 
Seems to be the case, although “potential Prime Mover, but not yet” still might be couched in temporal terms that have no meaning before time.
It is indeed very difficult to avoid temporal terms when using human language.
“Prime Mover” is a title, a name. It is not a “part” of God.
It is more than just a title, it is a causative agent - it actually acts, and it acts within time. If it is not a part of God then it must be something else.
The unchanging parts of God (which I believe is the whole God, and not properly said to be “parts”), can be said to be unchanging if it has been doing the same thing since the beginning of time.
Agreed, hence my example of the endlessley repeated “Let there be light”.
We say that God is omniscient, meaning He sees everything, simultaneously. Everything is always Present to God. What I want to express is that God, from the beginning of time, has had this one thought, one eternal thought that we call The Universe.
The universe obseervably changes, hence that thought of God also changes. Since it changes it cannot be a part of an unchanging God. The same thing cannot both change and not change.

An unchanging entity is insufficient to act as a cause for a changing universe. Requiring something to be unchanging is to freeze it into immobility and inactivity. Being omnipresent God is immobile, but I do not think that Christians see God as inactive.
“Creator” and “Prime Mover” are parallel terms. Before God created or moved a universe, He was still God.
Perhaps, but He would have been unable to change from the state of “potential-creator” to “actual-creator”. As I said, anything unchanging finds it extremely difficult to act in time. Any action in time implies change, and that is impossible for an unchanging entity.

rossum
 
No, because God is not “Prime Mover” as a Divine Attribute. “Prime Mover” is a human description of an external reality, not a property of God. It is more accurate to say that God can potentially be described as “Prime Mover”, since God is not “potentially” anything.
If God changes then God is not eternal. If God is eternal then God cannot change. Something eternal is the same at all times. Something that changes is different at different times. An unchanging God cannot be the Prime Mover. A changing God cannot be eternal.
One of the fundamental flaws of Buddhism, and a fatal one at that. If there is no fundamental, unchanging being, then being can not exist at all.
If I am a fundamental unchanging being then there is no possibility for me to become enlightened - I cannot change from unenlightened rossum to enlightened rossum. The same applies to Christianity, there can be no change from unsaved (as at birth) to saved. Extreme Calvinism avoids this problem, but is is an issue for most forms of Christianity.
That is the subject of another thread, however.
Agreed.
God is not composed of parts, and as I’ve said Prime Mover is not a proper attribute of God at any rate.
So Aquinas’ argument about the Prime Mover is not an argument for the existence of God?
You seem to have some confusion about what acting actually is. This may be owing to your Buddhism, or maybe your misunderstanding is what leads you to be Buddhist. When God says “Let there be light”, it is not God that changes, but the created universe. God speaks one eternal Word, but temporally this Word manifests differently at different moments.
If something is “different at different moments” then by definition that thing is changing. If the Word is changing then it cannot be eternal, since the eternal is the same at different moments. If the Word is changing, then the God who speaks it must also be changing. We can observe that the universe is changing; that observed change propagates beck up the chain of causation to the Prime Mover, which itself must also change. If God is unchanging, then God is disconnected from the universe.
This is not because of a change in the Word, but because of the fragmented nature of time and created nature. God exists in the “eternal now”; everything is present to Him at once. God says “Let there be light” in the same moment God says “let there be Ghosty”, but the flow of time brings this single statement forth in different ways at different moments.
How can you define change unless it is defined in terms of the flow of time? Change is difference at different points in time. In the absence of time there can be no change, it would not make sense. If an eternal God is saying “let there be Ghosty” then there can never not be Ghosty. If there is/was a time when there was no Ghosty, then at that time God was not saying those words. If the effect is changing then the cause is also changing. An unchanging cause is much like a Hollywood-style machine gun, with unlimited ammunition. The effect keeps being recreated.
An action does not require change at all. Action is nothing else than an object “actually being” something, and this includes “actually existing”. An eternal foot that doesn’t move, but makes an eternal footprint underneath it in eternal sand is still acting on the sand. If the foot wasn’t acting on the sand, the sand would not bear the impression of the foot. Action does not require a change from “about to act” to “actually acting”, it simply requires actualization.
I have allowed that an unchanging entity can perform one action, but it can neither stop performing that action nor perform a different action. Since the universe we observe is not like that, we can reject an unchanging cause.
It would only be a real relation if “creator” was an essential term of God, and not an external description based on another object’s relation to Him. “Creator” is not an essential, proper term for God; it does define Him essentially. It is a term that is formed by looking at creatures, and then applying the opposite term to God.
Agreed, “Creator” cannot stand on its own but also requires “created” to make sense.
God could not be called “creator” without creating something from nothing, but God could be called God, or Theos, or Word, or Father, or Holy Spirit, without any change whatsoever, and these terms refer to the essential nature of God and not to external descriptors.
You missed “Father”, another relative term that requires “child” to make sense. “Holy” requires “profane”, “Spirit” requires “material”.

rossum
 
It is indeed very difficult to avoid temporal terms when using human language.
rossum:

Sorry for the length of this diatribe!

Like so many others – including, to some extent, me! – Kaku has completely misunderstood what motion means, as Aristotle and Aquinas understood it, as any kind of change and cause is that upon which something else depends for its being or coming to be. You, too, unfortunately, have misinterpreted cause as many who have made the same mistake have, as a succession of events where there is some sort of hidden connection.

David Hume interpreted cause, for the most part, as a succession of events without any kind of connection that could be sensed or known. Hume did admit to certain few real causes, but, once again, and for the most part, since we can’t sense cause, all we can do is postulate a connection because certain actions always seem to follow certain other actions, in proximity or time. This creates special problems when one brings time into the explanation.

Although the following is not a particularly great analogy of an effect that represents being, from it you may be able to get some idea of what is meant. Picture in your mind a television set. Picture the interior of the television. Understand that that television set is not just any pile of parts, even if the parts were the exact same parts that were inside the TV set. Such a pile of parts would be nothing more than a pile of parts.

However, once organized and assembled as a television set, the television performs its formal function, that of producing picture and sound from analog or digital signals captured from the air or delivered by a cable. The television set now has being-ness, in the sense of this analogy; it has species and essence. From it, we can abstract the essence of what all units of this species have in common. But, it’s not just its parts-in-a-box that makes it so, rather, it’s the order and organization of the parts in the box. It’s the entirety of all of the parts put together in a specific order that make it function and make it a species of thing that is distinguished from all other species of at least electronic things.

Now each part, ordered and placed just so, in the TV set, is an efficient cause of the effect, the box producing sensible and knowable picture and sound; that which renders species to the thing. Considered as a chain of efficient causes, we can see that even if we count all of the parts within the TV set, we would still have to add more. We would have to add the electricity. We would have to add the electric power plant. We would have to add the parts of the turbines, and wires, at the power plant. We would have to add that which effects the motions of the turbines, be it the force of water or, fuel. We would have to add the engine that would make the turbines turn. We would have to add the fuel pumps. We would have to add the ignition system that would ignite the fuel, as well as the mixing system to mix air into the fuel. We would have to add the pistons. We would have to add the lifters and its related parts, etc. - all working together.

The above chain of causes operates simultaneously (the instant that the electricity is supplied). Time is a function here, but only to the extent that the TV is supplied from outside of itself with electricity and the producers of electricity want us to pay for its consumption. But, at least we can see a causal chain in an analogous way to what Aristotle and Aquinas have shown what metaphysical causal sequence to consist of. They are not talking about knocking a bunch of billiard balls around on a table. They are talking about real metaphysical cause: that cause which brings being into being; that cause which maintains being in being; that cause upon which the effect (the being) depends.

The first of the causes of being is primary matter. As matter, it cannot bring itself into being; it cannot provide its own form. Matter is the principle from which a thing comes to be. It is an intrinsic cause because it is necessary to the effect. As an intrinsic cause, matter is different from privation in that privation does not enter into the ultimate effect as does the matter, thus, privation is extrinsic to the effect. For example, a man wants to create two statures, one out of clay and one out of marble. The effects, the statues, however they may appear, consist of the matter, the clay or the marble. But, the motion tends towards the effect so the matter is not the end of the motion. Rather, it is a sort of matrix from which the motion occurs.

Form intrinsically determines and organizes the matter. As a pile of parts, they are not a television set. As an ordered and organized set of parts, they form the television set. Since the parts cannot organize themselves, another cause (or, perhaps a group of causes) must be present that moves each part in its proper sequence to create the effect, the television set operating and producing picture and sound.

Because the form (formal cause) exists prior to change only in the potencies of matter, the form cannot bring itself into the determination of the matter, and matter cannot on its own make the form emerge from itself since matter as matter, being only potential, cannot operate. Therefore, another cause is necessary and this is the efficient cause (or, perhaps a group of efficient causes). It is the agent or the mover. By its (their) action(s), the being (the operating TV set) becomes being.

continued . . .
 
Considering the analogy of the television set, you can see that there are perhaps thousands and thousands of parts, ordered and organized in a precise way that an individual, operating television set is the ultimate effect. Even in this crude analogical example, one can clearly see that there is not an infinite chain of causes. For, even if we include the man that brought all of it about in the first place, there are still only a finite number of parts or efficient causes. Likewise, for any causal chain that brings about a being which emerges in the physical realm, such as a man, there cannot be an infinite regress. If there was, there would be no good reason for there to be a man at this place in the sequence or time. There would be no final point or, place, of the regress. Since there would be no end of it, there would be no effect. Moreover, if we remove the first cause, there will be no effect. And, if we remove the Prime Mover, there will be no motion.

If a man tried to put together an infinite number of parts, to build a television set, no television set would ever result. It would be no more than a forever ongoing dream. So, since men are extant; and, since there are beings that exist, therefore no infinite regress is possible and there must be a First efficient cause. If there were not, like the “ongoing dream” of the television set, we would not exist – ever – neither in sequence nor in time. And, since there can be no actual infinity of parts, but only a potential infinity of parts, other parts would be continuously added to the result that the TV set would never be operable.

This reality tells us that there must be a First efficient cause, as well as a Prime mover. The Prime mover does not move billiard balls. Nor does the Prime mover move other accidental things that are movable by other creations of God. That is simply the wrong manner of understanding motion and cause. The mechanics of the physical things that come together to make a thing a being can be known, for the most part, but they are not, even if taken together, the cause of being, for example, the TV set. It is the totality of the parts plus the order of them that upon operating indicate being. But, even that does not fully appreciate the full functioning of the TV-set-being. The full functioning (being) is the entire thing, all of the efficient causes working together, doing what it was made to do, all simultaneously.

A struck billiard ball that moves another billiard ball around on a table is nothing more than a combination of accidental local motions that move the billiard balls to new locations, but, there is no substantial change in this at all. It is the same billiard ball, consisting of the same material as it was before being struck and before striking other balls, but, it is in a different place on the table. There’s nothing substantial in this scenario. It’s just a change of scenery.

Now, since there must be a First Efficient Cause and Prime Mover, it is imperative that this being be unchangeable and un-movable. If not, as I stated earlier, there would be no good reason for there to be any beings or, any changes now. In other words, if the First Efficient Cause and Prime Mover were, in fact, not the First Efficient Cause or Prime Mover, than we simply have not gone far enough up the chain to the proper First Cause or, Prime Mover. That is our fault, not anyone else’s. God, therefore, is unchangeable and unmovable. He is also indivisible (not made of any parts), neither is he any kind of potential, nor in potency, nor matter. Form is a reflection of God who is Pure Act with no potency. So, none of the considerations Kaku provided have anything whatsoever to do with real change, or motion, or being. His argument is an unfortunate strawman.

jd
 
If God changes then God is not eternal.
The entire point is that God doesn’t change. Just because the term “Prime Mover” is applied to God doesn’t indicate any change in God, it indicates a change in creatures from non-existing, non-moved, to existing and moved. God has not changed in that equation any more than the foot that makes an imprint on the sand.
If I am a fundamental unchanging being then there is no possibility for me to become enlightened - I cannot change from unenlightened rossum to enlightened rossum. The same applies to Christianity, there can be no change from unsaved (as at birth) to saved. Extreme Calvinism avoids this problem, but is is an issue for most forms of Christianity.
I never said that we don’t change; in fact, my entire argument is based on the fact that we do change. I said that God is unchanging; you said that everything changes, and that’s a philosophical error and a major flaw in Buddhism.
So Aquinas’ argument about the Prime Mover is not an argument for the existence of God?
Of course it is, just as the footprint is an argument for the existence of the foot, even though the footprint in no way defines the foot. We can prove the existence of the foot by the footprint, without directly knowing the essence of the foot. It’s called arguing from effects.
How can you define change unless it is defined in terms of the flow of time?
I never said that change can be defined apart from time. Time is, by definition, the measure of change. This is why our perception of God can change, as we’re in time, though God Himself does not.
I have allowed that an unchanging entity can perform one action, but it can neither stop performing that action nor perform a different action. Since the universe we observe is not like that, we can reject an unchanging cause.
The first sentence is true, the second is false. God performs a single action in eternity, and that action is spread out through time. Different aspects of that single action are manifest at different points in time, but it remains a single action. This is why we speak of the Word of God and not the Words of God, the Spirit (breath) of God and not the Spirits. We can’t, however, infer that God is changing because the universe is changing, anymore than we can infer that the foot is made of sand. God transcends the universe and its definitions; the universe is a limited reflection of God, but God is not a reflection of the universe, just as the footprint is an image and imprint of the foot, and the foot is not an image and imprint of the sand.

Peace and God bless!
 
Sorry for the length of this diatribe!
Long, yes. Diatribe, no.
Picture in your mind a television set. Picture the interior of the television. Understand that that television set is not just any pile of parts, even if the parts were the exact same parts that were inside the TV set. Such a pile of parts would be nothing more than a pile of parts.
An excellent analogy. In the Minildapanha Nagasena uses the illustration of the parts of a chariot in a similar manner: The Chariot.
The television set now has being-ness, in the sense of this analogy; it has species and essence.
Here we disagree. You seem to be reifiying the parts of the TV set. If we disassemble the TV piece by piece you will eventually have nothing left. There is no “TV-ness” left over after all of the parts have been removed. One of the basic insights of Buddhism is that there is no reified “reality” behind what we see. In Thomist terms, everything is accident with no substance.The emptiness of emptiness is the fact that not even emptiness exists ultimately, that it is also dependent, conventional, nominal, and in the end it is just the everydayness of the everyday. Penetrating to the depths of being, we find ourselves back on the surface of things and so discover that there is nothing, after all, beneath those deceptive surfaces. Moreover, what is deceptive about them is simply the fact that we assume ontological depth lurking just beneath.

Jay Garfield, “Empty words, Buddhist philosophy and cross-cultural interpretation.” OUP 2002.
The first of the causes of being is primary matter.
From a physical point of view matter and energy are interchangable and are two sides of the same coin. That is what e = mc[sup]2[/sup] means. We can convert one into the other and vice versa.
It is an intrinsic cause because it is necessary to the effect.
One of the major points of my argument is that there is no such thing as an “intrinsic” cause. All causes, if they are to be causes, require that there also exists an effect. A cause cannot stand on its own; it is interdependent with the effect. Both require each other.
As a pile of parts, they are not a television set. As an ordered and organized set of parts, they form the television set. Since the parts cannot organize themselves, another cause (or, perhaps a group of causes) must be present that moves each part in its proper sequence to create the effect, the television set operating and producing picture and sound.
Agreed. As with Nagasena’s chariot, it is not just the parts, though they are obviously a prerequisite, it is also the correct arrangement and interrelation of those parts. However the word “TV” does not refer to anything more than that arrangement of parts.
Because the form (formal cause) exists prior to change only in the potencies of matter, the form cannot bring itself into the determination of the matter, and matter cannot on its own make the form emerge from itself since matter as matter, being only potential, cannot operate. Therefore, another cause is necessary and this is the efficient cause (or, perhaps a group of efficient causes). It is the agent or the mover. By its (their) action(s), the being (the operating TV set) becomes being.
Here is where Aristotle parts ways with Nagarjuna:It is impossible for something that either exists or not to have causes.
If it were non-existent, of what would they be the cause?
If it were existent, why would it need causes?

Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 1:6
There cannot be a cause of something that already exists - if it exists then it does not need a cause. If it does not exist then how can it have a cause? There is an immense logical problem with reifying cause and effect.
Moreover, if we remove the first cause, there will be no effect. And, if we remove the Prime Mover, there will be no motion.
There cannot be a “first cause” unless there is also a “first effect”; a cause with no effect is not a cause at all, just as with the mother without any children. There can be no Prime Mover without there also being motion; otherwise it would be the “Prime Unmover”.

If the “first effect” already exists then the “first cause” is not what it claims - it is not “first”. If the “first effect” does not exist then the “first cause” is not what it claims either - it is not a “cause”.
This reality tells us that there must be a First efficient cause, as well as a Prime mover.
I disagree, your position is not logically consistent for reasons I have indicated. All attempts to reify observed reality are in error. Your Fist Cause seems to be an attempt to reify simple causation. My sig applies here.

There is no need to reify the observed world, it is complete as it is without us adding unneccessary mental constructs to it.
There is not the slightest difference between samsara and nirvana.
There is not the slightest difference between nirvana and samsara.

Whatever is the limit of nirvana, that is the limit of samsara.
There is not the even slightest difference between them, or even the subtlest thing.

Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 25:19-20

rossum
 
The entire point is that God doesn’t change.
The God described in Genesis does. He does different things on different days. That is change.
I never said that we don’t change;
Indeed you didn’t. Apologies for my mistake.
I said that God is unchanging; you said that everything changes, and that’s a philosophical error and a major flaw in Buddhism.
We will have to disagree on that one. As you said, that is a discussion for another thread.
Of course it is, just as the footprint is an argument for the existence of the foot, even though the footprint in no way defines the foot. We can prove the existence of the foot by the footprint, without directly knowing the essence of the foot. It’s called arguing from effects.
Arguments for the existence of the Prime Mover may possibly show the existence of the Prime Mover. However you said in post #26 “Prime Mover is not a proper attribute of God”. How does the existence of a Prime Mover connect to the existence of God?
I never said that change can be defined apart from time. Time is, by definition, the measure of change. This is why our perception of God can change, as we’re in time, though God Himself does not.
If God sustains the universe and the universe changes then how can God be unchanging? Change propagates backwards up the chain of causation.
We can’t, however, infer that God is changing because the universe is changing
Obviously I disagree.
God transcends the universe and its definitions;
Then nothing in the Bible is a correct description of God, because all the words in the Bible have definitions within the universe. Nothing produced by the Church is a correct description of God because all the words of the Church have definitions within the universe. If God is as absolutely transcendant as you seem to be saying then it is impossible for us to know anything for certain about Him/Her/It/Them.

rossum
 
Long, yes. Diatribe, no.
Thank you for the thoughtful and charitable reply, rossum.
Here we disagree. You seem to be reifiying the parts of the TV set. If we disassemble the TV piece by piece you will eventually have nothing left. There is no “TV-ness” left over after all of the parts have been removed. One of the basic insights of Buddhism is that there is no reified “reality” behind what we see. In Thomist terms, everything is accident with no substance.
Yes, this will be a place, then, that St. Thomas and I will disagree with you.
"Some have thought that the species of a natural thing is a form only, and that matter is not part of the species. If that were so, matter would not enter into the definition of natural things. Therefore we must disagree and say that matter is twofold, common or signate, or individual: such as this flesh and these bones. The intellect therefore abstracts the species of a natural thing from the individual sensible matter, but not from the common sensible matter. For example, it abstracts the species of man from this flesh and these bones, which do not belong to the species as such, but to the individual, and need not be considered in the species. But the species of man cannot be abstracted by the intellect from flesh and bones.

“But some things can be abstracted even from common intelligible matter, such as being, unity, potency, act, and the like, all of which can exist without matter, all of which can be verified in the case of immaterial substances. And because Plato failed to consider the twofold kind of abstraction, as above explained, he held that all those things which we have stated to be abstracted by the intellect, to be abstract in reality.”
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, transl. by A. C. Pegis, I, q. 85, a. 1, reply 2.
From a physical point of view matter and energy are interchangable and are two sides of the same coin. That is what e = mc[sup]2[/sup] means. We can convert one into the other and vice versa.
With all due respect, you are still misunderstanding the meaning of “matter” as it is considered to be “primary matter” in this discourse. The mechanics of matter being matter or energy do not have significance for primary matter except that primary matter may exist sub-metaphysically in these forms.
One of the major points of my argument is that there is no such thing as an “intrinsic” cause.
Then how would one classify the difference between matter and form, both of which end up in the effect, and privation, which does not end up in the effect?
All causes, if they are to be causes, require that there also exists an effect.
A cause cannot stand on its own; it is interdependent with the effect. Both require each other.
I think that I agree with you here. However, I have not taken the time to think it through yet.
Agreed. As with Nagasena’s chariot, it is not just the parts, though they are obviously a prerequisite, it is also the correct arrangement and interrelation of those parts. However the word “TV” does not refer to anything more than that arrangement of parts.
Here is where Aristotle parts ways with Nagarjuna:
It is impossible for something that either exists or not to have causes.
If it were non-existent, of what would they be the cause?
If it were existent, why would it need causes?

Consider the coming to be of a new child. Prior to the combining of the parental gametes, the child did not exist. However, he or she had causes. In fact, take away the parental gametes as causes, and you take away the new child.
Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 1:6
There cannot be a cause of something that already exists - if it exists then it does not need a cause. If it does not exist then how can it have a cause? There is an immense logical problem with reifying cause and effect.
From the example I gave of the TV set, we see that we have a huge amount of efficient causes that continue to exist while the TV is in the act of existing, that is, performing. In fact, because it is a being that has not the perfections of life from God, the removal, or failure, of any of its parts means the failure of its being as TV set.
There cannot be a “first cause” unless there is also a “first effect”; a cause with no effect is not a cause at all, just as with the mother without any children.
That is correct. But, we have effects. Countless effects. That we may not know the first effect is not the problem of the first cause, it is the problem of our knowledge. We simply have not proceeded far enough up the chain to the first effect, and so, don’t know what it is.
There can be no Prime Mover without there also being motion; otherwise it would be the “Prime Unmover”.
Also correct. But there are countless motions. In fact, without motion there would be no continuum called time. Time is dependent upon motion, not the other way around.

continued . . . .​
 
If the “first effect” already exists then the “first cause” is not what it claims - it is not “first”. If the “first effect” does not exist then the “first cause” is not what it claims either - it is not a “cause”.
So, if my newborn son is the first effect of me, the first efficient cause of him, then he just passes out of existence the moment that I pass on? Or, does that mean the milkman may have gotten there before me?🙂
I disagree, your position is not logically consistent for reasons I have indicated. All attempts to reify observed reality are in error. Your Fist Cause seems to be an attempt to reify simple causation. My sig applies here.
There is no need to reify the observed world, it is complete as it is without us adding unnecessary mental constructs to it.
And I disagree with you. Your position is not in keeping with man’s sensations from and understanding of the world we life in. Are you saying that men do not abstract? Do we not place things within proper categories, such as species?

jd
 
God by definition, is perfect act, pure actuality, which is synonymous to pure existence; because pure existence is by definition the eternal expression of that which is being, and is so by its very nature of being existence. Pure act and pure being are one and the same, and are inseparable. For God to be, is to express being. God is perfect expression, because God does not receive its being, act, or nature, potentially. Existence, by its nature, cannot receive anything; it can only give being. God simply is. Thus God expresses all possibilities intrinsic to Gods nature.
 
The God described in Genesis does. He does different things on different days. That is change.
Again, as I explained before, God has done one thing, and this thing manifests differently as time passes. Imagine it like a book; the book is a single object, a single whole, but as we turn the pages we come upon new aspects of this one thing. This doesn’t mean the book changes, but rather our perspective changes as the pages turn. Likewise with the days in Genesis: God spoke a single Word, but this word manifests in time differently as moments pass. The Word that made Light, and the Word that made me 28 years ago is the same single, unchangable Word that echoes through time.
Indeed you didn’t. Apologies for my mistake.
No worries, you’re forgiven. 🙂
We will have to disagree on that one. As you said, that is a discussion for another thread.
Indeed, we’ll move on.
Arguments for the existence of the Prime Mover may possibly show the existence of the Prime Mover. However you said in post #26 “Prime Mover is not a proper attribute of God”. How does the existence of a Prime Mover connect to the existence of God?
The same way that a footprint points to the existence of the foot, without the “making footprints” being a proper attribute of “foot”. The way that a broken twig on the ground points to a passing animal, without “breaking twigs” being a proper attribute of animals. “Creating” or “moving” do not enter into the definition of God, but rather are mental descriptions based on God’s effect on creatures, just as “twig breaker” is a mental, imposed description upon the animal, and not a property of the animal.
If God sustains the universe and the universe changes then how can God be unchanging? Change propagates backwards up the chain of causation.
This is illogical. There is no reason to suppose that change propagates backwards up the chain of causation, even in changing things like ourselves. I am the cause of my child, my child grows and changes, but I do not change with every change that my child undergoes; a coin that corrodes does not change the minting stamp it was pressed from. This is even more true for beings who do not exist in the same manner, and God trancends the manner of existence of creatures.
Obviously I disagree.
Your disagreement is unsound, however, as I’ve demonstrated above.
Then nothing in the Bible is a correct description of God, because all the words in the Bible have definitions within the universe. Nothing produced by the Church is a correct description of God because all the words of the Church have definitions within the universe. If God is as absolutely transcendant as you seem to be saying then it is impossible for us to know anything for certain about Him/Her/It/Them.

rossum
You are actually correct, to a degree. Through worldly knowledge we can’t truly know God. Through rational inquiry we can never observe the Divine Nature. Scripture is written in human language and perspective, even when Inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefore the descriptions are infinitely removed from a real knowledge of God, even though they are magnitudes of order greater than anything we find apart from Scripture.

This is why St. John of the Cross spoke of the “Dark Night” when talking about experiencing God, because God is beyond the “rational light”. St. Thomas Aquinas speaks of our natural light of reason being utterly incapable of knowing God, though we can know certain things about God by looking at creatures. St. Thomas Aquinas says that we need an infusion of the Divine Nature (called Grace) in order to directly experience and know God. This is the Catholic doctrine of infused Grace and the Beatific Vision; we do not believe that Faith is merely “assent to the unseen”, but rather that it is also an infused “dark light” which imparts a hazy but direct experience of God, utterly beyond human expression. In Heaven we will have our eyes opened fully, as some Saints have had in this life, but now even with Faith we see “dimly, as in a dark mirror”. Without this Faith, this Divine enlightenment, however, we don’t even see God dimly, we merely see the ripples and marks God leaves in creation, and we infer certain characteristics of His imperfectly.

Peace and God bless!
 
It (“Prime Mover”) is more than just a title, it is a causative agent - it actually acts, and it acts within time. If it is not a part of God then it must be something else.
I would like to focus on this sentence, I think this is perhaps one of our fundamental differences.

Firstly, “Prime Mover” is just a phrase. It doesn’t act. It is a title. God is the Agent. Maybe I’ve misinterpreted what you mean.

But to the meat of the matter, God (as I see it) is outside of time. In this way can God eternally and simultaneously speak the words that create the world, Ghosty and Rossum, and yet have those words come to fruition in the proper order within time. Sometimes I envision God seeing a trillion still photos all at once, and Him causing and keeping all of them in existence. I think this is…kinda? like how God sees us.
 
With all due respect, you are still misunderstanding the meaning of “matter” as it is considered to be “primary matter” in this discourse. The mechanics of matter being matter or energy do not have significance for primary matter except that primary matter may exist sub-metaphysically in these forms.
Thanks for the explanation; there are gaps in my knowledge of Thomist terminology. I am better with the Indian philosophical equivalents - prakriti in this case.
Then how would one classify the difference between matter and form, both of which end up in the effect, and privation, which does not end up in the effect?
  • Is the cause the same as the effect? No, because then there is no causation since the effect already exists.
  • Is the cause different from the effect? No, because then there is no connection between cause and effect, and there must be a connection because neither can exist without the other.
Matter/form cannot be the same as the effect because then there is no need to cause an already existing effect. Privation cannot be different from the effect because then it has no impact on any causative action.
Consider the coming to be of a new child. Prior to the combining of the parental gametes, the child did not exist. However, he or she had causes. In fact, take away the parental gametes as causes, and you take away the new child.
On a conventional level you are correct. However, there cannot be parental gametes until there is a child. The gametes require the prior existence of the child in order to be properly described as “parental”. I agree that if you take away the parental gametes then there can be no child, but also if you take away the child then there can be no parental gametes. Not all gametes result in a child.
From the example I gave of the TV set, we see that we have a huge amount of efficient causes that continue to exist while the TV is in the act of existing, that is, performing. In fact, because it is a being that has not the perfections of life from God, the removal, or failure, of any of its parts means the failure of its being as TV set.
Why is life different? The removal of essential parts can destroy life - heart, brain etc. Buddhism does not recognise a soul, which is part of the general tendancy of Buddhism to avoid reification. I cannot live without a heart, but I can live without an arm. Is my life then present in my heart but not in my arm?
That is correct. But, we have effects. Countless effects. That we may not know the first effect is not the problem of the first cause, it is the problem of our knowledge. We simply have not proceeded far enough up the chain to the first effect, and so, don’t know what it is.
On a practical level we do not need to know about initial causes, we merely need to know about present causes and what the results of our present actions are likely to be. On a philosophical level, Buddhism is agnostic on the origin of the universe and would have no problem with a beginningless universe. Beginningless cyclic universes are not uncommon in Indian philosophy.
Also correct. But there are countless motions. In fact, without motion there would be no continuum called time. Time is dependent upon motion, not the other way around.
Time is dependent on change and change is dependent on time. Neither makes sense without the other. It is another of those mutually dependent pairs.
So, if my newborn son is the first effect of me, the first efficient cause of him, then he just passes out of existence the moment that I pass on?
All I am saying is that you are not a father until your son exists. He is not a son unless you (or the milkman :)) is a father. We can all see what is happening on the surface, but on a deeper philosophical analysis there are problems with the simple view. That is not a problem with reality, but a problem with the view we take of it.
And I disagree with you. Your position is not in keeping with man’s sensations from and understanding of the world we life in. Are you saying that men do not abstract? Do we not place things within proper categories, such as species?
Men do indeed abstract, and rightly so. However there is a distinct tendancy to reify those abstractions which is to take an incorrect step. We can say “Jane is beautiful” or “Jack is handsome”; what we should avoid is to then reify that concept into an unattached “Beauty” (capitalised) which floats around unattached to other objects and is philosophised about. Humans seem to want to look for hidden depths beneath (or above) reality; that is a mistake. Enlightenment seems to be a realisation that what you see is what you get - nirvana is samsara and samsara is nirvana. Ordinary life is enlightenment; looking for enlightenment elsewhere is a mistake.

rossum
 
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