No Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Protestant Churches

[johnstown_johnn]

Why do you use that verse like it’s been reserved for you? I can easily say the same thing.

All this sparring has not settled a single point insofar as the Eucharist is concerned.

It’s time for a direct question:

TO BELIEVERS. Now tell us point blank…what are Catholics receiving when they step up and receive the Eucharist?

You can tell us what YOU believe we are doing.

Is it an exercise of pure folly?

Is it nothing more than a bread form?

Is it a meaningless ritual?

Is it a superstition that being carried on for 2,000 years?

Is it redundant?

Tell us, maybe you can make us stop.

 

[mirandajb]

Catholics believe that the Eucharist is real food and real drink -the Body and Blood of Christ – it is the Real Presence not symbolic. It is the Lord Jesus present in the tabernacles of our churches with His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. It is Jesus veiled under the appearance of bread, but really and physically present in the consecrated Host, so that He dwells in our midst, works within us and for us. The Eucharistic Jesus is the true Emmanuel, the “God with us”"(Mt. 1:23).

There is enough documented evidence to show how the consecrated host has actually transformed into the actual flesh and blood (miracles of Naju, Korea – Ms Julia Kim actually received the Holy Eucharist in the presence of the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, in Rome and the Host actually became flesh and blood).
Eucharistic wonders are recorded in the lives of St. Rose of Lima, Bl. Angela of Foligno, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Philip Neri, St. Francis Borgia, St. Joseph of Cupertino, and many other saints, who sensibly perceived the Real Presence of Jesus in the tabernacle and in the consecrated Hosts, seeing Jesus with their own eyes or enjoying His indescribable fragrance.
Well known is the episode in the life of St. Anthony of Padua when he once proved the Real Presence to an unbeliever by showing him a hungry mule kneeling before a monstrance containing the Blessed Sacrament, in preference to devouring the basket of oats placed beside the monstrance.

The Sanctuary of Lanciano (in Abruzzi, Italy), in particular, is unique of its kind among the world’s Eucharistic sanctuaries and deserves to be better known throughout the entire world. There the marvelous presence of a Host transformed into live Flesh and preserved in this condition for many centuries can be contemplated. It is a visible miracle which amazes and moves hearts to this very day.

The Protestants have no evidence of any such Eucharistic miracle simply because they do not believe in the Real Presence. Since there is no faith, surely no miracle will follow (Mat13:58 - And He did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.)

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Catholics believe that the Eucharist is real food and real drink -the Body and Blood of Christ – it is the Real Presence not symbolic. It is the Lord Jesus present in the tabernacles of our churches with His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. It is Jesus veiled under the appearance of bread, but really and physically present in the consecrated Host, so that He dwells in our midst, works within us and for us. The Eucharistic Jesus is the true Emmanuel, the “God with us”"(Mt. 1:23).

There is enough documented evidence to show how the consecrated host has actually transformed into the actual flesh and blood (miracles of Naju, Korea – Ms Julia Kim actually received the Holy Eucharist in the presence of the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, in Rome and the Host actually became flesh and blood).
Eucharistic wonders are recorded in the lives of St. Rose of Lima, Bl. Angela of Foligno, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Philip Neri, St. Francis Borgia, St. Joseph of Cupertino, and many other saints, who sensibly perceived the Real Presence of Jesus in the tabernacle and in the consecrated Hosts, seeing Jesus with their own eyes or enjoying His indescribable fragrance.
Well known is the episode in the life of St. Anthony of Padua when he once proved the Real Presence to an unbeliever by showing him a hungry mule kneeling before a monstrance containing the Blessed Sacrament, in preference to devouring the basket of oats placed beside the monstrance.

The Sanctuary of Lanciano (in Abruzzi, Italy), in particular, is unique of its kind among the world’s Eucharistic sanctuaries and deserves to be better known throughout the entire world. There the marvelous presence of a Host transformed into live Flesh and preserved in this condition for many centuries can be contemplated. It is a visible miracle which amazes and moves hearts to this very day.

The Protestants have no evidence of any such Eucharistic miracle simply because they do not believe in the Real Presence. Since there is no faith, surely no miracle will follow (Mat13:58 - And He did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.)

The miracle of San Lanciano is especially telling.
ASfter many, many years present day science was permitted to test a fragment of the Host.

They reportedv that it was INDEED human flesh and the tissue was that of a human heart, The blood was analyzed as human blood TYPE AB+ which is the universal blood type for most of the world. Lifesaving blood transfusions immediately come to mind.

“Unless you eat of My flesh and drink My blood you shall have no life in you.”

 

[pprimeau1976]

Here is what I do not understand yet about Catholicism - despite me being Catholic. Why is it that the Bishops of the Church instruct that members of Protestant churches cannot receive Communion, yet will allow members of Orthodox Churches to recieve communion?

I realize that in most cases, Protestant leaders claim that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is symbolic wheras the Orthodox and Catholic leaders teach that the Christ’s presence is real. However, we know very well that there are Catholics who believe that the presence is symbolic. Catholics who believe this should not go up to Communion.

There are Protestants who divert from their religious leaders teachings who do believe that the presence of Christ is real in the Eucharist, why are they excluded if their personal beliefs match the Church’s beliefs? Are they excluded?

 

[Mickey]

Here is what I do not understand yet about Catholicism - despite me being Catholic. Why is it that the Bishops of the Church instruct that members of Protestant churches cannot receive Communion, yet will allow members of Orthodox Churches to recieve communion?

Canonically, Orthodox should not receive in the Catholic Church and Catholics should not receive in the Orthodox Church. Both Churches indeed have apostolic succession and valid sacraments. However, due to the tragedy of the schism, the two Churches are not in communion and have some differences in theology.

However, we know very well that there are Catholics who believe that the presence is symbolic. Catholics who believe this should not go up to Communion.

Correct.

There are Protestants who divert from their religious leaders teachings who do believe that the presence of Christ is real in the Eucharist, why are they excluded if their personal beliefs match the Church’s beliefs? Are they excluded?

If they accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, they are urged to join her and partake of the mystery, beauty, wisdom and truth of her holy Sacraments including the Real Presence of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Here is what I do not understand yet about Catholicism - despite me being Catholic. Why is it that the Bishops of the Church instruct that members of Protestant churches cannot receive Communion, yet will allow members of Orthodox Churches to recieve communion?

I realize that in most cases, Protestant leaders claim that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is symbolic wheras the Orthodox and Catholic leaders teach that the Christ’s presence is real. However, we know very well that there are Catholics who believe that the presence is symbolic. Catholics who believe this should not go up to Communion.

There are Protestants who divert from their religious leaders teachings who do believe that the presence of Christ is real in the Eucharist, why are they excluded if their personal beliefs match the Church’s beliefs? Are they excluded?

Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are NOT in communion with each other. Where did you get that idea?

Maybe you mean the Byzantine Rite Rite…there is a communion between the two since the Byzantine Church is in harmony with the Pope and the Holy See. The Orthodox are NOT.

Believing that the Presence is real is insufficient for Protestants to be in communio with us because they reject the Sacrament of Penance which is vital before we receive Christ 's Body and Blood. Also, like the Orthodox, Protestants are not in harmony with the Pope/Peter. They reject the True Church.

With all this why would a Protestant even want to receive with us? Isn’t that bizarre?

 

[pprimeau1976]

Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are NOT in communion with each other. Where did you get that idea?

Maybe you mean the Byzantine Rite Rite…there is a communion between the two since the Byzantine Church is in harmony with the Pope and the Holy See. The Orthodox are NOT.

Believing that the Presence is real is insufficient for Protestants to be in communio with us because they reject the Sacrament of Penance which is vital before we receive Christ 's Body and Blood. Also, like the Orthodox, Protestants are not in harmony with the Pope/Peter. They reject the True Church.

With all this why would a Protestant even want to receive with us? Isn’t that bizarre?

According to Canon 844, Paragraph 3 of the Code of Canon Law:

Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.

Am I interpreting this incorrectly? Why is it licit for the Eastern Orthodox but not for the Protestants?

 

[Randy_Carson]

What if I am a Protestant Christian who ardently believes in the Real Presence of Christ because of what Jesus said in John 6? I have no reason to doubt His words and do not want to turn away from Him. I agree with the position of the Catholic Church. But is that not enough? Am I still then not receiving Him in fullness in the communion at my Protestant church because it hasn’t been consecrated by a Catholic Priest? If not, please help me understand why.
Sincere Thanks

It is great that you believe that he said he would be present in the Eucharist. However, in order for the Eucharist to become the body and blood of Christ, it must be validly consecrated. Therefore, simply believing it is not enough.

Two examples:

1. If a baptism is not performed using the trinitatian formula (“in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit”), it is not valid.
2. If a man and woman say wedding vows before a person who is not licensed by the state, then they are not technically married regardless of what they believe.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Mickey]

Am I interpreting this incorrectly? Why is it licit for the Eastern Orthodox but not for the Protestants?

Yes. In my understanding, it is licit under certain circumstances for Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox Churches because they have valid sacraments and apostolic succession.

Protestant Churches have no succession and no sacraments.

The exception being paragraph 4:

§4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Yes. In my understanding, it is licit under certain circumstances for Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox Churches because they have valid sacraments and apostolic succession.

Protestant Churches have no succession and no sacraments.

This brings me back to the original question. Why assume that the “faith” of the institution is what the “faith” of the believer is? From what Canon 844 says, full communion is not a requirement to recieve Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. What is a requirement is that the faith of the recipient of Holy Communion be in line with the Catholic Church’s teaching is.

So why not spell out what the Catholic Church teaches and why they teach it (i.e. do a better job at catechising) so that everyone - Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant can determine for themselves whether to go up or not?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

It is great that you believe that he said he would be present in the Eucharist. However, in order for the Eucharist to become the body and blood of Christ, it must be validly consecrated. Therefore, simply believing it is not enough.

Hi,

Could you tell me what exactly the priests says to consecrate it and where he gets this from in scripture?

 

[icxc_nika]

Canonically, Orthodox should not receive in the Catholic Church and Catholics should not receive in the Orthodox Church. Both Churches indeed have apostolic succession and valid sacraments. However, due to the tragedy of the schism, the two Churches are not in communion and have some differences in theology.

While it is correct to state that the RCC allows the Orthodox church members to recieve of the Eucharist, the Orthodox memebers are strictly forbidden to partake of the eucahrist from a RC priest.

The Orthodox however, strictly forbid anyone from partaking of the eucharist, from an Orthodox priest, if they are not Orthodox.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Hi,

Could you tell me what exactly the priests says to consecrate it and where he gets this from in scripture?

 

[icxc_nika]

Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are NOT in communion with each other. Where did you get that idea?

G.O. are not in communion with the RCC. No Eastern Orthodox church is in communion with the RCC. If it were the case, we could freely accept and partake of each others sacraments… since it is not the case, we are not in communion with one another.

Believing that the Presence is real is insufficient for Protestants to be in communio with us because they reject the Sacrament of Penance which is vital before we receive Christ 's Body and Blood. Also, like the Orthodox, Protestants are not in harmony with the Pope/Peter. They reject the True Church.

With all this why would a Protestant even want to receive with us? Isn’t that bizarre?

The Orthodox most certainly do not reject the true Church, and have never been out of Harmony with St. Peter. Leaving the Orthodox opinion of this matter out of the discussion: the words schismatics and heretics are completely different. Thus the Orthodox have never been considered heretical by the RCC, but the reverse can not be said.

 

[icxc_nika]

According to Canon 844, Paragraph 3 of the Code of Canon Law:

Am I interpreting this incorrectly? Why is it licit for the Eastern Orthodox but not for the Protestants?

Because the Orthodox are not heretics.

Again, no Orthodox Christian is allowed to partake of RC communion, annointing, prayer, confession…

 

[pprimeau1976]

Because the Orthodox are not heretics.

Again, no Orthodox Christian is allowed to partake of RC communion, annointing, prayer, confession…

An Orthodox who believed that the Christ’s presence in the Eucharist was symbolic, would be a heretic. Just like a Catholic who believed that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist was symbolic would be a heretic.

However, a Protestant who is coming to believe (or already does believe) that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is *real *should not be classified as such.

The only people that prohibit Orthodox Christians from receiving communion are the Orthodox bishops, not the Catholic bishops. And for what purpose? It’s like the Russians building the Berlin Wall to keep people from fleeing East Berlin.

I am not calling the Orthodox “Russians”, but what your leadership is doing is sending the wrong message, just like I think that my Church leadership is sending the wrong message to Protestants.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

ALLFORHIM;2226968:

He repeats Christ’s words at the last supper:

“Take this, all of you, and eat it. This is my body which will be given up for you. Do this in memory of me.”

“Take this, all of you, and drink it. This is the cup of my blood. The blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.”

Thank you
Are those the words said that turn it into the real flesh and real blood? Is there a place in scripture where the Lord says only the priest can change the elements? If so, where? Is there any scripture that says specifically that when the priests say this it will turn into the flesh and blood? If so where? If not, where does the CC get the idea that this is the way the sacrement is suppose to be carried out?

Thank you.

 

[Contarini]

This brings me back to the original question. Why assume that the “faith” of the institution is what the “faith” of the believer is? From what Canon 844 says, full communion is not a requirement to recieve Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. What is a requirement is that the faith of the recipient of Holy Communion be in line with the Catholic Church’s teaching is.

So why not spell out what the Catholic Church teaches and why they teach it (i.e. do a better job at catechising) so that everyone - Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant can determine for themselves whether to go up or not?

Because faith is not an individual matter–it is ecclesial.

Edwin

 

[pprimeau1976]

pprimeau1976;2227003:

Thank you
Are those the words said that turn it into the real flesh and real blood? Is there a place in scripture where the Lord says only the priest can change the elements? If so, where? Is there any scripture that says specifically that when the priests say this it will turn into the flesh and blood? If so where? If not, where does the CC get the idea that this is the way the sacrement is suppose to be carried out?

Thank you.

Well, there is little about this in scripture because the New Testament wasn’t even considered “scripture” by all Christians until the year 380 and perhaps even later, like 419. By then, the liturgies were already starting to form and transubstantiation was already a reality…though they may not have referred to it by that name. I would go to the Catholic Answers library and look at the following document regarding the Real Presence. Here you will see what Ignatius of Antioch said:

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (*Letter to the Smyrnaeans *

6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

or what Justin Martyr said:

“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (*First Apology **

66 [A.D. 151]).
Did you notice that Justin Martyr used the term, Eucharistic Prayer?

 

[pprimeau1976]

Because faith is not an individual matter–it is ecclesial.

Edwin

Faith is a gift to the individual, even the Catechism claims this.