No Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Protestant Churches

[The_Truthinator]

I think the first major mistake here is the assumption that Christ is only, really, literally present if it’s a physical presence. Yet I have the Spirit of God in me, and I will say, “It is very much literal! Very much real!”

The second is your take on Christ’s words in John 6. Read this part carefully:

Several boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the Lord had blessed the bread and the people had eaten (the feeding of the 5000). So when the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went across to Capernaum to look for him. They found him on the other side of the lake and asked, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, you want to be with me because I fed you, not because you understood the miraculous signs. But *don’t be so concerned about perishable things like food. *Spend your energy seeking the *eternal life *that the Son of Man can give you. For God the Father has given me the seal of his approval.”

They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”

Jesus told them, “This is the *only *work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

They answered, “Show us a miraculous sign if you want us to believe in you. What can you do? After all, our ancestors ate manna while they journeyed through the wilderness! The Scriptures say, ‘Moses gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, Moses didn’t give you bread from heaven. My Father did. And now he offers you the true bread from heaven. The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

Yeshua says that HE HIMSELF is the Bread … not that he becomes the bread … He has already made it clear that the Bread he offers differs from the physical manna of Moses and it should be obvious after a quick read that the point he tries to make here is: “Be eternally, heavenly-minded, looking for the Life I, the Bread of Life, can give you! Don’t be so obsessed with physical, tangible things like food, but focus–focus not on human practicality, but rather, on me. I am enough for you. Now believe.”

Go down to verse 35, the surrounding verses which I feel certain you are aware of:

“I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."

His point here, at least it seems so to me, was to get the crowd to start thinking about something much grander than they’d wanted to … He, in the above verse, proclaims, much like he did in John 4, his spiritual sufficiency. I think the only reason he didn’t feel the need to clarify this analogy was due to the fact that the people didn’t WANT to understand … After all,

“This is very hard …”

It was too hard … and that was enough for them to justify leaving this man, who they now could just pass off as a lunatic. He didn’t have to elaborate (which he did, quite plainly here) because the people should have gotten that he was sufficient the whole time and that they needed him. They didn’t. Or, at least if they did, they didn’t show it and still ultimately rejected him. Peter and the other disciples said, however,

“Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God.”

The story ends and it is universally agreed on that these were the only who “got it,” so to speak. What was the conclusion? They had faith in the one who was their spiritual Sustenance.

There’s also a great article on the Jewish Passover tradition from whence we draw the Eucharist HERE: godandscience.org/doctrine/eucharist.php

I think it also deals a little with John 6, too.

God bless!

 

[cheddarsox]

I have looked and looked for any scriptures which command believers to leave their church if it is not perfect. I have always wondered what would have happened if Martin Luther had just hung in there, kept communicating and fellowshipping with the church and had the patience to wait for the Holy Spirit to deal with the Judas’s and abuses. If the scriptural mandates are true, and if those who recognized the sins and were righteous, and continued to be faithful and good examples, prayed for their leaders and prayed for revival – is there any reason to think that the Holy Spirit would not have answered their prayers?

I would not leave a church because it is not perfect. I left a church because it claimed to be. An institution that claims such, has essentially put itself beyond being able to even consider that it hasn’t got everything right.

I fear that the Catholic Church has painted itself into a corner. By claiming is has all the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, cant really entertain that it needs any “fixin” from within or without.

But, God will take care of it. I don’t feel it was/is my calling to be a doctor to the Catholic church. I am following my call, and trusting God to take care of His own.

blessings,

cheddar

 

[Randy_Carson]

I would not leave a church because it is not perfect. I left a church because it claimed to be. An institution that claims such, has essentially put itself beyond being able to even consider that it hasn’t got everything right.

I fear that the Catholic Church has painted itself into a corner. By claiming is has all the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, cant really entertain that it needs any “fixin” from within or without.

But, God will take care of it. I don’t feel it was/is my calling to be a doctor to the Catholic church. I am following my call, and trusting God to take care of His own.

blessings,

cheddar

The Catholic Church has never claimed to be perfect. If you feel otherwise, please provide references to Church documents.

The Church has never claimed to be impeccable. If you feel otherwise, please provide references to Church documents.

The Church has claimed to be infallible in matters of faith and morals - but not in other matters. This is based upon the promises and work of God and not because of something that originates within the Church itself. Infallibility is a God-thing, not a man-thing.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Mannyfit75]

I would not leave a church because it is not perfect. I left a church because it claimed to be. An institution that claims such, has essentially put itself beyond being able to even consider that it hasn’t got everything right.

The Church claimed to be Pillar and Bulwark of Truth because Jesus founded Her. She is the Bride of Jesus, the Bride of the Lamb. The members of the Church are human and are not impeccable. Many Ex-Catholics like yourself seem to view this that impeccable is a MUST for a Christ’s Church.

You forget one thing. We are all sinners. In the future, we will be tempted to sin and fall, only to find ourselves to repent and renew our relationship with God.

Most of the Catholic Church’s teachings on moral and faith issue is for the spiritual benefits of its faithful and lead them closer to God.

The Church is also the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Paul clearily states this in his epistles. It seem to me that you have a problem with Jesus’ Mystical Body, which is both visible and invisible.

I fear that the Catholic Church has painted itself into a corner. By claiming is has all the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, cant really entertain that it needs any “fixin” from within or without.

But, God will take care of it. I don’t feel it was/is my calling to be a doctor to the Catholic church. I am following my call, and trusting God to take care of His own.

blessings,

cheddar

The Catholic Church has done many things especially post Second Vatican II, and the reign of Pope John Paul II. If you not notice that the Catholic taught that the use of contraception can lead to social decay, which happened, we see this in the high divorce rates, dysfunctional families, etc.

During Pope John Paul II, he went deeper into these. He preach the wrongs of abortion, contraception, euthanasia, death penalty, embryonic stem cell research, pornography, etc. I do not think the Church is mislead nor its teachings is out dated. Beliefs and doctrines are not made by popular vote. Church doctrine are guided by the Holy Spirit.

With it come to the doctrines of the Church, there is no fixin needed. They are a part of the deposit of faith.

 

[kaysette]

I would not leave a church because it is not perfect. I left a church because it claimed to be. An institution that claims such, has essentially put itself beyond being able to even consider that it hasn’t got everything right.

Hmmm…I have been researching the CC for quite some time now. I have never met a Catholic, nor a priest, nor read anything which makes any such claim. In fact, I have been in awe of the fact that if I ask a Catholic, even a priest, a question, that they so easily can say “I don’t know.” (I ask tough questions, by the way!)

I am really not used to that type humility when asking any of my other spiritual leaders and peers these same questions in the past.

Since studying this church, I have seen answers which I have never before heard. “I don’t know,” “the church makes no statements on that,” “some things are MYSTERIES,” and “I don’t know, but I will see if I can find out for you.”

I love my Protestant brethren, but I have seen far less humility in this area with them, than I have seen in my contacts with Catholics. I don’t see what you are describing at all. Protestants are just as dogmatic in their pet doctrines and beliefs, if not more so. In fact, I would venture to say that they also believe in “popes.” They are just not called “popes,” and they usually have one in each church. And sometimes, they are even THEIR OWN POPE.

Now don’t get me wrong, if you personally didn’t like the Catholic church and you feel that you are learning more elsewhere, that is your perogative. I just don’t think you are being honest about the real reasons. Like I said before, EVERY church has offensive folks in them. EVERY church has those with wagging tongues and bad spirits. Personally, I think Protestants have better singers. And, sometimes, their services are much more entertaining. Not only that, there isn’t usually so much that makes you feel guilty and ashamed – not much dwelling on sin and hell for believers. It feels a lot better to think of myself as a “King’s Kid” who has been given all power in heaven and earth, and in which “God doesn’t see my sin anymore – only the blood of Jesus.” In fact, also kind of nice to hear that God wants me to prosper and get my bills paid, to heal my aches and pains and to give me perfect joy all the time.

Maybe I can say all this, because I have been Protestant all my life – and I don’t mean it to be mean and ugly – but the day finally comes when TRUE believers have to face their own hearts and ask themselves the following question: “Am I really believing the 100% truth?” Who doesn’t love a “Jesus Pep Rally?” And who doesn’t love a place where one feels good all the time? Who doesn’t want to believe that hell is really hard to get into?

Sorry, but I am being painfully honest here. I woke up one day and realized I was choosing my fellowship around those who MOST APPEARED TO LOVE ME, and around that which MOST fit what I BELIEVE.

Personally, I am sick and disgusted with myself that I have spent my entire Christian life trying to make scriptures FIT WHAT I BELIEVE, in stead of trying to me ME FIT what the scriptures actually say.

 

[Mannyfit75]

…and believing is believing what Jesus said in all things that he has taught, that include the Real Presence. Not symbolic. Real Presence which is can only be found in two Churches, Orthodox Churches, and the Catholic Church.

 

[kaysette]

By the way – I am old enough to remember when most all of the Protestant churches believed most of the same things and traditions as the Catholics. The things they disagreed with the Catholics about, were NOT their tough stand on sin, abortion, headcoverings, the 10 commandments, baptism, confession, modesty, etc. In fact, as a young girl, in my church, the thing they most had against the local Catholics, were those who SINNED during the week and then went to church and took communion on Sunday…it was NOT their tough stand on faith and morals at all. I remember a time when the Protestant churches were tougher on sin and living as a Christian faithfully than the Catholics. I knew very little about their doctrines – except that I was taught that they don’t worship God or Jesus Christ – that they only prayed to Mary and worshipped Mary, and they prayed to “dead” people. As I got older, I was taught that they murdered millions in the name of God and that they worshipped a “pope,” who was the antichrist.

I was in my 40’s before I would even consider a Catholic to be a Christian believer at all, before I even attempted to see what the church really believed.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

The Catholic Church has never claimed to be perfect. If you feel otherwise, please provide references to Church documents.

The Church has never claimed to be impeccable. If you feel otherwise, please provide references to Church documents.

The Church has claimed to be infallible in matters of faith and morals - but not in other matters. This is based upon the promises and work of God and not because of something that originates within the Church itself. Infallibility is a God-thing, not a man-thing.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

When Jesus said to Peter, “Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I build My Church…and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”

Obviously, Jesus is telling us that the Church will be attacked by Satan until the Last Day. This may mean that within the Church itself we will experience betrayals of commitment; and other sins and crimes. Hell is a real place with real evil spirits that attack the Church.

Denying the “Real Presence” is the “Big Kahuna” of attacks.

Should we even doubt that Jesus presence is not what He said it is that would be the beginning of the end for the Catholic Church.

What may happen is SOME will follow this doubt but not ALL. That insures the Church’s survival. Christ is truly present Body, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. Have no doubt about It.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

By the way – I am old enough to remember when most all of the Protestant churches believed most of the same things and traditions as the Catholics. The things they disagreed with the Catholics about, were NOT their tough stand on sin, abortion, headcoverings, the 10 commandments, baptism, confession, modesty, etc. In fact, as a young girl, in my church, the thing they most had against the local Catholics, were those who SINNED during the week and then went to church and took communion on Sunday…it was NOT their tough stand on faith and morals at all. I remember a time when the Protestant churches were tougher on sin and living as a Christian faithfully than the Catholics. I knew very little about their doctrines – except that I was taught that they don’t worship God or Jesus Christ – that they only prayed to Mary and worshipped Mary, and they prayed to “dead” people. As I got older, I was taught that they murdered millions in the name of God and that they worshipped a “pope,” who was the antichrist.

I was in my 40’s before I would even consider a Catholic to be a Christian believer at all, before I even attempted to see what the church really believed.

My first eight years of school was in a Catholic school. All of the teachers were the Sisters of Notre Dame. They imbued us with the Faith and prepared us for times when we will see heresy ans apostasy and to recognize it.

The True Presence is the central point of what holds us together; otherwise we would have been gone a long, long time ago.
Like you, I heard all of those accusations but what it showed to me was the ignorance of those making the assertions.

Never have we worshipped the Blessed Mother…honor her? YES !

Worship the Pope and pray to him? Simply absurd !

Pray to dead people? If that meant the saints…yes because PRAYER is the route to communicate to the saints with God as the provider for the contact. We NEVER prayed to anyone as we would to God.

The saints are our friends and our family members when we enter eternity.
I wonder sometimes that if we might still receive the Body and Blood of Christ when we are resurrected and put on eternal life. No one knows, I don’t think. But I like to think that it would be the case…"…He who eats My Body and drinks My Blood shall lve FOREVER…" Could that be an eternal sustenance?

 

[kaysette]

I never heard one word about the Catholic doctrine that Jesus was present in the host itself after consecration. I didn’t hear anything negative about the doctrine, because I had never heard of it at all. I was totally shocked when I heard about the doctrine of transubstantiation. When I read about it, I quickly went to some Protestant sources, thinking that surely Protestants believed this, too – and that they just failed to teach us about it.

Out of all my Protestant friends, only one had heard of it and had any opinion at all about it. This particular friend said “yes, I know what that is, and I don’t know what my church believes about it, but I have always believed that Jesus was somehow present in the communion elements when I received them. I have always believed it was more than a symbol – so I figured *my faith *has made it so.”

When I asked my husband about the doctrine, he had never heard of this either and his first reaction was “Why didn’t anyone ever tell us about this?! I feel totally CHEATED that I was not told anything about this!”

 

[Contarini]

By the way – I am old enough to remember when most all of the Protestant churches believed most of the same things and traditions as the Catholics. The things they disagreed with the Catholics about, were NOT their tough stand on sin, abortion, headcoverings, the 10 commandments, baptism, confession, modesty, etc. In fact, as a young girl, in my church, the thing they most had against the local Catholics, were those who SINNED during the week and then went to church and took communion on Sunday…it was NOT their tough stand on faith and morals at all. I remember a time when the Protestant churches were tougher on sin and living as a Christian faithfully than the Catholics. .

Not all Protestant churches, but certainly many. I come from a holiness background, and I was also taught that the problem with Catholics was that they didn’t take sin and repentance seriously enough because of their “empty rituals,” particularly confession. My wife’s grandfather, a fairly prominent Methodist minister (and eventually seminary president), was relatively a lot more ecumenical than my family (he loved Thomas Merton’s work), but apparently he made the same criticism: that Catholics went to Mass on Sunday and then “lived like devils” all week long.

I would not assume that this attitude is dead among Protestants. For many evangelicals, the relatively laxer lifestyle of Catholics is a stumbling block. For some, I think it’s a stumbling block in the sense of temptation–to a limited extent it was for me.

Edwin

 

[Randy_Carson]

Personally, I am sick and disgusted with myself that I have spent my entire Christian life trying to make scriptures FIT WHAT I BELIEVE, in stead of trying to me ME FIT what the scriptures actually say.

:clapping:

 

[drifting_away]

Due to lack of Holy Orders, or Sacraments. Most Protestant Churches lack the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

Only the two large main Christian body which is both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church maintain Holy Orders and valid Sacraments. Therefore, these Churches have Real Presence of Jesus in the form of Bread and Wine, which has become Jesus Christ. For His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is there but hidden in the appearance of Unleaven Bread (leaven Bread / E. Rite/Orthodox).

Though there are Protestant Tradition that have bishops in the Anglican Churches and Episcopalian, they do not have valid sacrament since the Church of England broke their union with Rome during the Reformations.

There is some presence of Jesus Christ but only in Spiritual form in the communities founded in the Protestant Churches but they lack Real Presence of Jesus Christ. I have been approached several times by Non-Catholic Christians to go to to alter in an Non-Denomination Church and I said to myself. "Why should I join this Church since this Church lack the Blessed Lord’s Real Presence? I cannot. So I remain Catholic. The Jesus’ Presence in the Blessed Sacrament is the only that has kept me Catholic.

If I leave, where will I go? Maybe I can go as far as the Eastern Orthodox Church. Yet I remain a Catholic.

For you Non-Catholic Christians who want us to leave our Church, convince us why we should leave. For I tell you there is no Real Presence of Jesus in your Church. Not One.

This is the type of claim that turns me off to our Church. Jesus said that where more than 2 gather in his name, he is present.

 

[estesbob]

This is the type of claim that turns me off to our Church. Jesus said that where more than 2 gather in his name, he is present.

Physically Present?

 

[cslink]

Due to lack of Holy Orders, or Sacraments. Most Protestant Churches lack the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

No one needs the Church to have the real presence of Jesus Christ. He is everywhere that his word through the Holy Spirit is preached. His presence is not in the church it is in the word, which can be anywhere a group of people come together in his glory including a church.

 

[drifting_away]

Mannyfit75;2209400:

Due to lack of Holy Orders, or Sacraments. Most Protestant Churches lack the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

No one needs the Church to have the real presence of Jesus Christ. He is everywhere that his word through the Holy Spirit is preached. His presence is not in the church it is in the word, which can be anywhere a group of people come together in his glory including a church.

I agree. I go to Church and supposedly he is physically present on the altar, but it doesn’t seem to affect anyone. People leave church and hop in their cars to the Mall. It looks like a cracker to me. I guess I’m tired of clinging to this belief that the Catholic Church has the only true Eucharist. How can we limit Jesus like this?

 

[estesbob]

Mannyfit75;2209400:

Due to lack of Holy Orders, or Sacraments. Most Protestant Churches lack the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

No one needs the Church to have the real presence of Jesus Christ. He is everywhere that his word through the Holy Spirit is preached. His presence is not in the church it is in the word, which can be anywhere a group of people come together in his glory including a church.

Pysically present?

 

[estesbob]

cslink;2239618:

I agree. I go to Church and supposedly he is physically present on the altar, but it doesn’t seem to affect anyone. People leave church and hop in their cars to the Mall. It looks like a cracker to me. I guess I’m tired of clinging to this belief that the Catholic Church has the only true Eucharist. How can we limit Jesus like this?

How can you limit Jesus by ignoring his own words and his explicit instrctions to eat his body and drink his blood?

 

[jblair]

Our time on Earth is limited. It is sometimes best to resign from the debating society (of the types of Christ’s presence) and just move on. I am thankful that He is present… period.

 

[cslink]

cslink;2239618:

Pysically present?

If your statement suggest that he is physical present in Church than yes he is physical present any time people gather to praise him. Since I can not see him as to the physical present or not I do not know, but he there. I would phase it that there is no difference than going to church or gathering at the local Y in the road on any day of the week with a group of Christians to have a service. Jesus is present at both of these. The early church had no church, they gathered where they could, whether it was a church building or not and worshiped God. Jesus was present in the triune God.