"no salvation except that within the Church"

[Gorgias]

pray tell what was Jesus teaching those in prison.

First off, if you’re attempting to paraphrase 1 Peter 3:19, you’re getting it wrong. Jesus didn’t teach, He preached. Big difference, especially if you’re asserting (as you have) that their salvation was based on being present in Hades to hear Jesus’ words to them. Nowhere does the Church teach that people have a chance to change their minds (and their eternal destiny) after death.

Now remember the conditions that apply. One was sincerely seeking God. Now if one was sincerely seeking God and upon being taught that God was standing in front of you would one not accept God as He presented Himself?

That’s not what’s in play, though, is it? The question is whether those who weren’t in Hades at that time, but entered later, having also never seen Christ or heard His teaching while they were alive, are just as able to enter heaven!

What virtue is there in being in Sheol, that you some how gleaned from my post.

Not sure what you mean here.

Being taught in hell, gives one an automatic pass. not sure where I stated that.

You stated that those in Sheol at the time of Christ’s death somehow changed their status from ‘hellbound’ to ‘heavenbound’ by virtue of seeing Christ there. At least, that was the point you were arguing, as what you were doing was attempting to refute the assertion that those who never met Christ or His teaching in this life are, by definition, hell bound. (Therefore, the whole point is the ‘change in salvation status’ thing.)

Being taught in hell, gives one the opportunity to be saved.

No it doesn’t. Once a person dies, their fate is sealed. Those in Hades at Christ’s death simply had to ‘wait’ until He went to heaven in order to receive their eternal reward.

Upon being judged by the God, whom one sincerely seeks, also gives one the opportunity to be saved.

Agreed.

 

[peace2u2]

Yes of course, but that extraordinary means, like a Baptist convert to Christ is wholly in sync with living the message of salvation, and thus will according to Catholic Church enter paradise. They enter throught the catholic (little “c” meaning universal) Church

Suppose this “Baptist convert to Christ is wholly in sync with living the message of salvation” yet is an x-cradle Catholic who goes around telling people that they have left the Catholic Church and are now a Baptist Christian, baptized twice and will never return to practice the Catholic faith because they didn’t learn about who Jesus was in that Catholic Church?

 

[epostle]

Suppose this “Baptist convert to Christ is wholly in sync with living the message of salvation” yet is an x-cradle Catholic who goes around telling people that they have left the Catholic Church and are now a Baptist Christian, baptized twice and will never return to practice the Catholic faith because they didn’t learn about who Jesus was in that Catholic Church?

Practicing Catholics who know their faith well don’t “convert” to Protestantism. In most cases, these ex-cradle Catholics quit going to Mass after elementary school, if they ever went, or are ethnic Catholics, meaning Catholicism is the faith of their parents and ancestors.

Protestant x-cradle Catholics give no credibility to the formation they had already received in the Catholic Church. They may have had an emotional experience in another church, and automatically assume Jesus isn’t in the one they abandoned.

Then they get flooded with the usual anti-Catholic rhetoric and are not equipped to deal with it.

 

[Shirtless]

I do believe that Christ is the only way, but we should not presume to state that we always know the way that he will choose to lead a person to heaven. It is entirely possible that he can incline the heart of a Muslim, perhaps without the Muslim even knowing who is involved.

 

[TimothyH]

“except that within” in the title of this post still bothers me every time I see it.

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means outside the Church there is no salvation

“except that within” just rubs me wrong.

-Tim-

 

[bjryman]

Suppose this “Baptist convert to Christ is wholly in sync with living the message of salvation” yet is an x-cradle Catholic who goes around telling people that they have left the Catholic Church and are now a Baptist Christian, baptized twice and will never return to practice the Catholic faith because they didn’t learn about who Jesus was in that Catholic Church?

Well, you have provided several different “cards” in your stack up here. I know that what you state about “didn’t learn about who Jesus was in CC” sets a particular assumption. Let me state it a bit differently. I had a Baptist business associate who is one of the key ministry leaders who welcome folks into his Baptist Church say the following: "time and again we are told that the reason our new members left the CC was that they never felt a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus. He goes on to note that those coming to his church felt put out by what seemed to be overburdened focus on CC rules, rubrics, etc, including the return to “proper” words used throughout Mass (recent Mass revisions). Implication is that an extraordinary effort is place on these nuances, not the simple relationship with Jesus.

So, I might conclude that these folks probably were not involved in CC minsitries where getting to know Jesus by actions and service is so fullfilling. They probably were from the 60% of Catholics who don’t regularly participate at Mass not to mention no ministry work. Thus, these folks need to sort out the message of salvation for themselves. To the degree that they do so, they remain part of the universal church

So perhaps we have two considerations here: 1. CC has problems drawing a greater number of young to Christ through service beyond Mass and 2. So too due mainstream Protestant churches. Maybe we could all learn from Evangelicals…at least a bit?

 

[simoncyreno]

LETTER OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION OF THE HOLY OFFICE
to Archbishop Richard J. Cushing
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM

Pope Pius XII Mystici Corporis
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html

Pope John Paul II, Redemptorois Missio
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio.html

It is necessary to keep these 2 truths together:
[1] the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all people, and
[2] the necessity of the Church for this salvation.

ALL SALVATION COMES THROUGH CHRIST
Pope John Paul II
General Audience May 31, 1995

1. Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus—“outside the Church there is no salvation”—stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition and was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and in the Council of Florence (Decretum pro jacobitis, DS 1351).

There is but one Universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.

		Pope Innocent III, 4th Lateran Council, 1215

We declare, say, define, and pronounce, that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

		Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches: that none of those who are not within the Catholic church, not only pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of Eternal Life, but are to go into the eternal fire ‘prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt.25:41), unless before the close of their lives, they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church’s sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, alms-deeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat, are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ’s sake, can be saved unless he remains in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

		Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino, 1441

 

[hu324b]

A lot of faiths teach this not just Catholic - taking this path to convert is using fear - no one wants to go to hell - very easy thing to say and all different faiths will claim this with some sort of success - not the recruiting tool i would use. I don’t think Jesus wants people to come to him out of fear but that they want the truth of the Gospel .

If a lot of different faiths teach this - how do you get to the truth? I think this is a cop out way of teaching the faith - should not have to go down this path if our faith is true.

Its a believe or else statement.

 

[steve_b]

1. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. – Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

First, it said “all those”. That may be an error. Also, those outside the visible Church who are saved cannot be said to have been “not at all in the true Church”.

Rephrsed It’s saying, good hope is NOT to be entertained for the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the Catholic Church.
t:

1. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. – Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.

The truth in the Catholic Church is pleasing to God, which this proposition denies

It’s not denying that for the Catholic Church.

Rephrased, Protestantism is NOT the same true Christian religion as the Catholic Church and does NOT please God equally as the Catholic Church.

 

[thinkandmull]

Rephrsed It’s saying, good hope is NOT to be entertained for the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the Catholic Church.

It’s not denying that for the Catholic Church.

Rephrased, Protestantism is NOT the same true Christian religion as the Catholic Church and does NOT please God equally as the Catholic Church.

That’s what I said

 

[fbl9]

First off, if you’re attempting to paraphrase 1 Peter 3:19, you’re getting it wrong. Jesus didn’t teach, He preached. Big difference, especially if you’re asserting (as you have) that their salvation was based on being present in Hades to hear Jesus’ words to them. Nowhere does the Church teach that people have a chance to change their minds (and their eternal destiny) after death.

That’s not what’s in play, though, is it? The question is whether those who weren’t in Hades at that time, but entered later, having also never seen Christ or heard His teaching while they were alive, are just as able to enter heaven!

Not sure what you mean here.

You stated that those in Sheol at the time of Christ’s death somehow changed their status from ‘hellbound’ to ‘heavenbound’ by virtue of seeing Christ there. At least, that was the point you were arguing, as what you were doing was attempting to refute the assertion that those who never met Christ or His teaching in this life are, by definition, hell bound. (Therefore, the whole point is the ‘change in salvation status’ thing.)

No it doesn’t. Once a person dies, their fate is sealed. Those in Hades at Christ’s death simply had to ‘wait’ until He went to heaven in order to receive their eternal reward.

Agreed.

At least we have agreed on something.

Are you saying all those in hades at the time Christ was preaching to them went to hell?
If so then the original post was correct. That every one before Christ was predestined for hell.
What was the purpose of Christ preaching in hell?
Hell was the only place for souls before Christ’s death. Was it not.

 

[Gorgias]

Are you saying all those in hades at the time Christ was preaching to them went to hell?

No. Christ’s 'preaching’s wasn’t instructive, per se: those who have died are unable to change their eternal fate. Therefore, it would seem that Christ did not preach to all in Hades; but, to all to whom He ‘preached’, salvation awaited. To say it another way, Christ descended to Hades in order to free the saved and take them to heaven.

Hell was the only place for souls before Christ’s death. Was it not.

If we properly understand what we mean by ‘hell’, yes. It was Hades – the abode of the dead – not the place of eternal damnation.

Christ went to the ‘limbo of the fathers’, where those who would attain to heaven were awaiting Christ’s salvific passion, death, and resurrection.

 

[steve_b]

“except that within” in the title of this post still bothers me every time I see it.

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means outside the Church there is no salvation

“except that within” just rubs me wrong.

-Tim-

Isn’t it sort of a distinction without a difference?

one being Outside means they aren’t inside… true ?

 

[fbl9]

No. Christ’s 'preaching’s wasn’t instructive, per se: those who have died are unable to change their eternal fate. Therefore, it would seem that Christ did not preach to all in Hades; but, to all to whom He ‘preached’, salvation awaited. To say it another way, Christ descended to Hades in order to free the saved and take them to heaven.

If we properly understand what we mean by ‘hell’, yes. It was Hades – the abode of the dead – not the place of eternal damnation.

Christ went to the ‘limbo of the fathers’, where those who would attain to heaven were awaiting Christ’s salvific passion, death, and resurrection.

At least ,with this post, it seems we are in the same book( same book different page)
Who makes up the group of whom salvation awaited? Only faithful Jews or was it many nations of people.?

 

[Even_So]

Your concerns, beliefs, and reasons are very Catholic-sounding.

The Catholic Church teaches that anyone can get to Heaven, even an atheist. At the end of the day, it is not having the right belief that gets us into Heaven but having the right kind of love. One thing is sure: Whoever gets to Heaven does so through Christ’s grace and his death on the cross.

Atheists will not get in. They do not believe so they have rejected GOD.

 

[Even_So]

God Bless you too

I’ll never not believe that Muslims can make it to Heaven but Protestants cannot. That to me seems incredibly absurd.

Would it make sense to anyone that Muslims who reject JESUS must be under the Law, like their brother Hebrews?

 

[Even_So]

The Old Testament situation was different from the New era after Christ. Some writers like Fr. Brian Harrison believe that one must have explicit faith in order to be saved. When Pius IX or Vatican II say “outside of the Church nobody can saved unless he has invincible ignorance”, they interpret it as if it says “sinners have no hope, but those who fight sin will be led someday to faith in Christ”. This interpretation is valid. Its really a theological oddity of a debate though. Its really about WHEN a person receives sanctifying grace. When he is following natural law, or latter when hears about Christ, either from angels in a vision, or a missionary, or whoever.

Agreed. This is a point i was trying to make awhile ago in another thread. It is by Faith in GOD (Law), or acceptance that JESUS is LORD. Abraham was in by faith in GOD. It may have been CHRIST that called out to Abraham in Genesis 22.

 

[Even_So]

No, this limited interpretation is based on Aquinas, that explicit faith is needed for sanctifying grace. American Indians could have had Baptism of Desire on their death beds as a vision from God revealed the truths of the faith.

Which truths of the faith are the necessary ones has not been settled by anyone though.

Anyone find it interesting that the American Indian worshiped a Great Spirit?

 

[Even_So]

You have to believe something in order to be baptized:

Pope Benedict XIV, Cum Religiosi (# 4):
“… confessors should perform this part of their duty whenever anyone stands at their tribunal who does not know what he must by necessity of MEANS know to be SAVED…”

Which means infant baptism is not necessary, right?

 

[Even_So]

"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…".

Buddhists do not believe in GOD. Here is a link to a quote i could not copy.

buddhismbeliefs.org/category/god-and-the-afterlife

We really get in based on conscience? Sounds like go right ahead and save yourself.
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