No salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church?

[Protestant]

Thanking you all for your responses

Reading the posts by Joshua_b, Subrosa, dave, et al., it seems that Roman Catholics do not interpret the phrase, “Outside the Church there is no salvation”, as meaning that salvation can only be received if one is an active / faithful member of the Roman Catholic Church. And this is something that I’m going to have to try and convince Evangelical fundamentalists whom I’m in regular contact with. And perhaps this same issue may be facing you all when you dialogue with Catholic fundamentalists. I firmly believe in Christian unity even if we disagree over doctrinal matters because, as Pope John Paul wrote after quoting scripture (e.g. Acts 4:12), “It is therefore a revealed truth that there is salvation only and exclusively in Christ” (Crossing the Threshold, p. 136). I believe therefore, that any church which claims that it is impossible to be saved unless you belong to them, is, well, deceived.

Protestant

 

[Brother_Luke]

But the fact is that the word Church only applied to that group of early Christians (first called The Way, then called Catholic), and our separated brethren have erroneously labeled their communities as churches… and time has given a sort of validation stamp to the misuse.

.

Dear brother ,

As a historian I don’t agree with your view. The Holy Roman Catholic Church goes directly back to Christ and the Holy Spirit. The rest of the churches or better said denominations (Eastern Orthodox Oriental Orthodox and Protestant) are manmade churches. That’s also the reason why the Protestant churches the whole time are falling apart in smaller entities; they are just human creations while the Holy Catholic Church has a divine origin.:angel1:

 

[Greg27]

With the Church divided along so many lines this is a delicate question. The original Church was united through common creeds, accepted scriptures, valid apostolic succession and unity and obedience to validly ordained clergy (bishops, priests and deacons) who practiced in a reasonably uniform way valid sacraments (baptism, confirmation, eucharist, and the others).

A terrible tragedy resulted from the schisms in the Church, first into Catholic/Orthodox and then into Catholic/Protestant, and then further the fragmentations of the Protestants into their various differing sects, many of which do not even practice any of the classical sacraments. I was a Protestant for seven years but was never baptised, something which dissapoints me greatly looking back. It seemed (especially in evangelical circles) scripture study, going to church and having faith in Jesus were all you needed to be saved.

I don’t believe genuine Christians who are not necessarily united to the Pope but who practice valid sacraments and ecclesiology will miss out on the vision of God, and the Orthodox especially are still close to the Catholic Church in many ways. Nevertheless there are many schismatic wounds to be healed amoung the Christian faithful in the world, and I’m sure regardless of who is to be saved these schisms are scandals in God’s sight.

 

[MrS]

But the fact is that the word Church only applied to that group of early Christians (first called The Way, then called Catholic), and our separated brethren have erroneously labeled their communities as churches… and time has given a sort of validation stamp to the misuse.

.

Dear brother ,

As a historian I don’t agree with your view. The Holy Roman Catholic Church goes directly back to Christ and the Holy Spirit. The rest of the churches or better said denominations (Eastern Orthodox Oriental Orthodox and Protestant) are manmade churches. That’s also the reason why the Protestant churches the whole time are falling apart in smaller entities; they are just human creations while the Holy Catholic Church has a divine origin.:angel1:

Sure sounds like you agree:thumbsup:

 

[Mickey]

I am also known as “Mikey”

Oops!

 

[Mickey]

The rest of the churches or better said denominations (Eastern Orthodox Oriental Orthodox and Protestant) are manmade churches.

For the record Brother Luke, even though the Catholic and Orthodox Church is in schism, the Orthodox Church has abundant grace, apostolic succession, and valid sacraments. The Catholic Church says this.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif

 

[Protestant]

Hi Subrosa

As a validly baptised christian, you share in Christ’s Body, the church. Ergo, salvation is made available to you… So the vehicle for salvation is the Church, but you don’t have to be Catholic to enjoy some of the benefits./QUOTE]

Yes, I have been baptised although not in a Roman Catholic church. So, you would agree that salvation has been made available to me? But in your next post you said that only the Roman Catholic church has the “true gospel”. Now, I’m confused! If I haven’t heard the true gospel, which is only contained in the Catholic church, then how can I be saved?

 

[Protestant]

Hi Dave,

What do you mean by “formal heresy”? Am I committing a “mortal sin” by willingly refusing to become a member of the Roman Catholic Church? So is that fundamentalist whom I quoted correct in saying that he and I are going to be condemned to hell?

Michael / Protestant

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi Subrosa
Subrosa;2251100:

As a validly baptised christian, you share in Christ’s Body, the church. Ergo, salvation is made available to you… So the vehicle for salvation is the Church, but you don’t have to be Catholic to enjoy some of the benefits./QUOTE]

Yes, I have been baptised although not in a Roman Catholic church. So, you would agree that salvation has been made available to me? But in your next post you said that only the Roman Catholic church has the “true gospel”. Now, I’m confused! If I haven’t heard the true gospel, which is only contained in the Catholic church, then how can I be saved?

Since the Church is preserved by Apostolic Succession, she has the fullness of Truths. We believe since Protestant break with Rome in 1517, they only took parts of Catholic doctrines which include the Bible. So they only have partial truths.

The Catholic Church has it all. This may sound selfish but it is fact. Let me put it this way.

A king gives his loyal servant to watch over his kingdom during his departure. This servant became a stewart the keeper of the kingdom. The king for his part has engage in a long war which has not ended.

During this time, the peasants notice the succession of stewart have live the life of immorality, but he still is loyal to the king. The peasants revolted against the King’s stewart and rejected all of his authority. They only took the part of the king’s laws and divided it amongst themselves.

Soon these rebels fragmented the king’s law and only have part of the king;'s inheritance. The stewart and many of those who remain loyal maintain the laws of the king which he has received from his precedessors.

The king here is Jesus, the stewart is the Pope. The rebels are the Protestant reformers. So they may maintain part of the truth but they have departed from all of the King’s revelations but not being loyal to his stewart.

I hope this helps.

 

[Randy_Carson]

But then can one not say that Protestant churches are also the “instrument of salvation”??

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION

"DOMINUS IESUS"
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH

1. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60
   On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Subrosa]

Hi Subrosa
Subrosa;2251100:

As a validly baptised christian, you share in Christ’s Body, the church. Ergo, salvation is made available to you… So the vehicle for salvation is the Church, but you don’t have to be Catholic to enjoy some of the benefits.

Yes, I have been baptised although not in a Roman Catholic church. So, you would agree that salvation has been made available to me? But in your next post you said that only the Roman Catholic church has the “true gospel”. Now, I’m confused! If I haven’t heard the true gospel, which is only contained in the Catholic church, then how can I be saved?

Let us qualify that to “complete gospel.” We, that is, you and I, can agree on many points. A single God expressed in three Persons; Jesus is a single person in two natures; God is Creator; and many more. We disagree on only some issues; Purgatory; Mary; the importance of works, etc.

God’s grace is the final determinant of your, and my, salvation. Do you commit sin by not professing Catholic doctrine? No. A sin is a willfully malicious act and your refusal to accept Catholic doctrine cannot be defined as such. It is simply incorrect.

Hence, in this argument we see simply the difference of perspective. You, being educated in certain doctrine, cannot be held accountable for what is incorrect in that doctrine since it did not originate with you. However, if you begin to educate yourself and examine that doctrine and find error, but do nothing to change your views, then you are moving into sin.

Think of how many times Paul expresses this same teaching in the bible. Those who find truth, yet reject it will be judged accordingly.

This Truth is my responsibility also. I must examine my faith and find reasons to NOT believe it. In my case, I have examined many documents of the early church. What I have found is that those early christians, many of whom died by the jaws of wild animals because of thier christian faith, expressed one in the same belief as what the Catholic Church teaches today.

I have examined other Apostolic churches (Orthodox, Armenian, Coptic, Assyrian, et al) to compare beliefs and have found thier beliefs to be one in the same as the Catholic Church, albeit with some theological variations.

I have examined the Reformation churches and have found that all have rejected some important part of original apostolic christian belief.

And, finally, I have made a great study of the Bible and found that much of what the Reformation churches teach simply is different from what the Bible really teaches. For instance, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fida are not biblical teachings. Also, the books rejected by Luther and the Reformation were at ALL TIMES a part of christianity. It is evident that the reformers (not you) are in violation of the admonition in Revelations 22:18-19.

My process began by rejecting everything at first and then researching. The Holy Spirit guided my way to the truth. At the same time my examination was, and is, a human act, and my intellect is just as responsible for my decisions as is the Spirit.

Have you questioned and examined? Have you made the journey? Is this why you are here, on this forum, at this particular time? Did the Spirit lead you here?

Reject everything you have learned and start from scratch. Examine everything, question everything. You will find the Truth.

Subrosa

 

[itsjustdave1988]

What do you mean by “formal heresy”?

Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith.

Let me give you just one example where Protestantism clings to heresy, objectively speaking. Every Church of Christ since the advent of Christ has held to a larger version of the Book of Daniel than Protestants do. All of them. Furthermore, Jerome did. Origen did. Origen testified that every Church of Christ held to the larger version of Daniel. All the extant ancient Christian manuscripts of Sacred Scripture in other than fragmentary condition testify to the larger version of the Book of Daniel. See more about that here: How big is your book of Daniel?

That the Holy Bible authentically includes the ancient larger version of Daniel is dogma, an article of Christian faith, a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Those who obstinatey deny or doubt this truth commit a sin of grave matter.

Mortal sin has three conditions:

1. Sin of grave matter
2. Full advertence in sinning
3. Perfect consent of the will

Whether or not a sin is “formal” or merely “material” depends upon the conditions listed above. In other words, if condition one is met (grave matter, like denying a portion of the Bible is inspired), but either condition two or three is not met (full advertence or perfect consent), then the sin is called “material.” It is at most a venial (non-mortal) sin which does not separate a Christian from Christ. It may not be a sin at all if the doubt or denial is completely involuntary (very rare, e.g. mentally incapable of voluntary acts).

However, if all three conditions are met, the sin is call “formal” because both the matter (material) and form (formal) of mortal sin are met. Formal heresy is a mortal sin and severs a Christian from Christ. If a Christian dies finally impenitent in mortal sin, they descend to hell.

Am I committing a “mortal sin” by willingly refusing to become a member of the Roman Catholic Church?

Let me put it to you this way, whether you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church or not, if you deny a portion of the Holy Bible is truly the word of God, then you at least commit material heresy, a grave sin which even if merely material, does harm to your soul. Man does not live by bread alone but upon EVERY word from the mouth of God. Yet merely material sin is venial (non-mortal), and does not sever you from Christ.

However, the word “obstinately” connotes the subjective elements of mortal sin and is antithetical to “good faith.” It connotes that a sin of grave matter was indeed committed with full advertence and perfect consent. Denial of God’s word is a grave matter. The matter is “grave” when the thing under examination is seriously contrary to the laws of God and His Church. Full advertence in sinning is had when we know perfectly well that we are doing a serious evil. Perfect consent of the will is verified in sinning when we deliberately determine to do a thing although we know that thing to be sinful. When all three conditions of mortal sin are met, the sin if “formal” and does indeed severe from Christ, placing you “outside the Church” in soul (even if you were a member of the Roman Catholic Church “in body”). If you die “outside the Church” in final impenitence, you go to hell, whether you are Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or non-Christian.

continued…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

continued…

So, if you deny a portion of the Holy Bible is truly the word of God, and do so with full advertence and perfect consent, you do indeed commit mortal sin, which is damnable.

I cannot tell, nor should I attempt to discern if the subjective elements are present within your soul (full advertence, perfect consent). That’s not my job, nor am I competent to look into another persons heart. I can only say with certainty that anyone who denies a protion of the Holy Bible is inspired by God commits a grave sin.

Yet, there are many impediments to one’s faculties of intellect and will which may or may not be at work within you. From a Catholic perspective, God alone is the judge of the internal disposition of your soul (cf. St. Pius X, Pascendi Dominici Gregis, 3).

So is that fundamentalist whom I quoted correct in saying that he and I are going to be condemned to hell?

Perhaps, if all three conditions of mortal sin are present and you remain unrepentent of this mortal sin until death. However, as stated above, culpability for sin is linked to voluntariness in sinning. You cannot accidently commit a mortal sin. You must understand it is mortal, and perfectly consent to sinning just the same.

But let me re-emphasize a point I made above. Even if you are not fully culpable for heresy, and therefore it is only a venial sin and not damnable, sin is still harmful to your soul and detracts from the unity and growth in holiness of the Church of Christ. Lack of full advertence or perfect consent may make heresy merely material and not fully culpable, but it is still a grave error which harms the soul and the Body of Christ on earth.

So when a Pope or any Catholic evangelizes, it is not always that the people we are evanglizing are hellbound. That’s not our call, but is God’s alone. Instead, we are called to proclaim the Gospel, to teach the truth as it has been handed on to us by Christ and the apostles. It is an act of charity, fraternal correction, so that all may assent to the fullness of truth in a more perfect way, and grow in holiness and unity.

See here: Charity demands fraternal correction

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Yes, I have been baptised although not in a Roman Catholic church. So, you would agree that salvation has been made available to me?

If you were validly baptised, then you were justified/regenerated in Christ. You were saved. “Baptism…now saves you.” (1 Pet 3:21).

However, contrary to some Protestant claims, just because you were saved in baptism, doesn’t guarantee you will attain eternal life in heaven. “Saved” has different senses in Scripture. For instance, “He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matt 24:13). This need to “endure” applies to Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. Those who die unrepentent in mortal sin will not be saved in this final sense of eternal glorification in heaven.

Baptism is the begining of this journey of faith. One must endure or persevere in the faith until the end to “be saved” in the final sense of eternal glory in heaven. Is obstinate disobedience congruent with eternal life? Not according to Scritpure:

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.” (Jn 3:36)

But is obstinate rejection of the Church of Christ the same as rejection of Christ? Yes.

“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Lk 10:16).

 

[MariaG]

Reject everything you have learned and start from scratch. Examine everything, question everything. You will find the Truth.

Subrosa

Well, not everything

Michael,

Keep Christ! But question the interpretation of Scripture that has been given to you by your pastor.

Seek out those who were taught by the apostles and see what they have to say, and see how this compares with what the Catholic Church teaches and what your protestant church teaches:thumbsup:

Fathers Know best

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Hi Maria G,

Yes, the Pope’s statements are on the link you provide: “Is Only Rome Right?”

The specific paragraphs that I would like clarification on are the following:

---

Here the Council sets forth its teaching on the Church as the active subject of salvation in Christ: “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, having the Spirit of Christ, integrally accept its organization and all means of salvation instituted in it. In the Church’s visible structure they are joined with Christ-who rules the Church through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops-by the bonds of the profession of the faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and Communion. Those who do not persist in charity, even if they remain in the Church in ‘body’ but not in ‘heart,’ cannot be saved. All of the Church’s children must remember that their privileged condition is not the result of their own merits, but the result of the special grace of Christ. Therefore, if someone does not respond to this grace in thought, in word, and in deeds, not only will that person not be saved, he will be even more severely judged” (Lumen Gentium 14). I think that the Council’s words fully respond to the difficulty raised by your question; they shed light on why the Church is necessary for salvation.

The Council speaks of membership in the Church for Christians and of being related to the Church for non-Christian believers in God, for people of goodwill (cf. Lumen Gentium 15-16). Both these dimensions are important for salvation, and each one possesses varying levels. People are saved through the Church, they are saved in the Church, but they always are saved by the grace of Christ**. Besides formal membership in the Church, the sphere of salvation can also include other forms of relation to the Church.** Paul VI expressed this same teaching in his first encyclical, Ecclesiam Suam, when he spoke of the various circles of the dialogue of salvation (cf. Ecclesiam Suam 101-117), which are the same as those indicated by the Council as the spheres of membership in and of relation to the Church. This is the authentic meaning of the well-known statement “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

---

Michael,

Your answer is right there in the document.

You seem to now understand and yes, you will have to bring this up to the more “fundamental” Catholics who seem to wish to ignore context of various statements, (like statements written DIRECTLY to the reformers) as well as ignore any statement made since Vatican II.

It basically is the same teaching in Protestant Churches that the only way for salvation is through Christ. It is just more fully articulated and in my opinion as a Catholic , more accurate as to the possibilty of HOW a person who has never heard the gospel, can POSSIBLY be saved. It WILL be through Christ, but just as an ER doc can save the life of a person who does not know Him, it is possible (not probable note!) that a person can be saved through Christ by following what is written on the heart of every man without have ever hearing the gospel that has been revealed to you and I.

God Bless,
Maria

And thanks for taking the time to put the exact part up:thumbsup:

 

[LutheranDK]

Perhaps the following analogy might help…

If you are penniless, you are (by definition) without money.

If I then give you $10, you will of course have $10 more than you had before. Where did you get the $10 from? From me, obviously.

Now let’s say there’s another penniless person standing opposite you, and you turn around and give that person $5 from the $10 I just gave you. Where did that person’s $5 come from? Well, in one sense, it came from you… but a case could certainly be made (since you didn’t even have $10 until just a few sentences ago) that it really came from me.

I disagree

If you give me $10, those $10 are now mine, not yours anymore.
If I then choose to give $5 of these away, it is I who have given the money, not you, since you ceased to “own” the money when you gave them to me.

And sorry, I may be a bit slow, but what is this example supposed to illustrate?

By the way, I LOVE your signature

 

[biblebeliver]

Salvation is NOT found in a religion or good works, but in a person…the LORD JESUS CHRIST!

John 11:25, “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 6:40, “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
1st Corinthians 3:11, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

 

[MrS]

Salvation is NOT found in a religion or good works, but in a person…the LORD JESUS CHRIST!

John 11:25, “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 6:40, “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
1st Corinthians 3:11, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

Gee… I don’t see any quotes from 1Peter, and (as expected) from John 6… the BIG obstacle for those who have walked away from the Catholic Church.

It is difficult to say one will “believe” in Jesus Christ, and then not believe in all His Words. The Real Presence is what separates Catholics from all the faith communities who are missing so much.

Perhaps you are among those who see only a symbolism in John 6. Do not be afraid… it is up to God when He will open your eyes. In the meantime, pray.

.ACTS is a great read… so much about the early days of the Church… the procedures, the bishops/priests/deacons etc which still exist today only in the Catholic Church.

And this Sunday we Catholics again celebrated the feast of Pentecost… the birthday of our Church.

.

 

[biblebeliver]

Gee… I don’t see any quotes from 1Peter, and (as expected) from John 6… the BIG obstacle for those who have walked away from the Catholic Church.

It is difficult to say one will “believe” in Jesus Christ, and then not believe in all His Words. The Real Presence is what separates Catholics from all the faith communities who are missing so much.

Perhaps you are among those who see only a symbolism in John 6. Do not be afraid… it is up to God when He will open your eyes. In the meantime, pray.

.ACTS is a great read… so much about the early days of the Church… the procedures, the bishops/priests/deacons etc which still exist today only in the Catholic Church.

And this Sunday we Catholics again celebrated the feast of Pentecost… the birthday of our Church.

.

what quote would you like to see ?