No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[pcg2]

So I just finished reading a pretty exhaustive book by Francis A. Sullivan, S.J. entitled Salvation Outside the Church? Tracing the History of the Catholic Response. He is a Jesuit who has taught theology for many years at Gregorian University in Rome.

But… after more than 200 pages, I am still confused as to what the answer to this question is! I learned so much about the history of this axiom, and how social, psychological, and historical factors contributed to its aceptance and eventual disuse in Catholic Theology.

I read this book so I could get a grasp on what the Church actually taught on this matter, and while I understand so much more than I did before, I came away “dissatisfied” with the ambiguity with which he concluded the book.

I know that this axiom is an imperfect way of describing the Church’s role in the divine economy of salvation… but can anyone just answer me this simple question: **Does the Roman Catholic Church have a necessary role in the salvation of every human being, be him Christian or non-Christian? **

 

[DennisTate]

I’m not Catholic yet but I have noticed that the Catholics that I talk to are more open to taking the NDE accounts seriously than just about any other Christian church that I know of. I strongly suspect that the NDE accounts play a major role how in the latter days we finally understand the plan of God perfectly.

By being open to near death accounts Catholics are becoming some of the best people to get accurate answers from regarding what actually happens after we die.

The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. (Jeremiah 23:20)

.near-death.com/ritch.html

George leaves his body and sees it lying in his bed. He is not aware the dead body in his bed is his. Wanting eagerly to travel to Richmond, Virginia to start college, he finds himself flying in the air toward a city. He is not sure how he acquired these strange powers of flight and transparency. He arrives at a city and discovers he has lost his solidness. He flies back to the hospital and sees his lifeless body in the morgue and realizes he has died.

Suddenly, Jesus appears emitting a tremendous light and love. George’s entire life appears before him. Jesus asks, “What have you done with your life?” He realizes Jesus is not judging him, but he is judging himself.

Jesus gives him a tour of four different dimensions in the afterlife. They both fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. He witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to obtain a cigarette from the workers who are oblivious to her presence. This woman died severely addicted to cigarettes.

In a house, Jesus shows him the spirit of a boy following a living teenage girl and begging for forgiveness while the girl is completely unaware of the boy’s presence. Jesus tells George that the boy committed suicide and is “chained to every consequence of his act.”

Jesus shows George a bar filled with sailors who are heavily drinking. Spirits try desperately and in vain to get a drink or to control the sailors’ alcoholic behavior. These spirits are from humans who die severely alcoholic. He is horrified as he observes a drunken sailor pass out and an alcoholic spirit jump into the body of the sailor.

Jesus takes him to a new dimension away from Earth and shows him a kind of “receiving station” where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of their beliefs. These are spirits who believe they must sleep after death until Jesus returns.

Jesus shows him a dimension where angry spirits are locked in hand-to-hand combat, trying in vain to hurt each other. He hears verbal abuse going on. He observes some trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. He also sees spirits arguing over some religious or political point and trying to kill the ones who did not agree with them. Here, he realizes he is seeing hell. These are spirits who are locked into some earthly desire that went beyond the physical and which cannot be satisfied in the spirit.

He is then taken to a different dimension appearing like an enormous university. Here he observes people dressed as monks engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. He is taken into an enormous library where all the important books of the universe are assembled. He asks Jesus if this is heaven. He replies that these are the people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth. George realizes these people cannot see Jesus, just as the others could not see him in hell.

Jesus takes him into outer space toward a distant city made of brilliant light of a similar description to the city in the Book of Revelation. He speculates this is the place where people go who have become Christ-like while on Earth. Here, love was the dominant focus of life. He realizes he is seeing heaven, but he is not allowed to go in. Jesus then shows him the future of the Earth. He then returns to his physical body.

(George Ritchie)

I would go so far as to strongly suspect that the Being of Light that people meet during a NDE is none other than the Logos/Word, who became Yahushua/Jesus.

For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls. (Boruch 6:6, DRB)

I suspect that the giving an account of our souls is the live review in light of being asked a question to the effect of "What did you do with your life that you can show me, that so many NDE experiencers remember being asked.

 

[Mark77]

That’s the problem, 200 pages written by a theologian.

**The Catechism makes it clear in a short passage;

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

"How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (CCC 846-847)

**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Deconi]

… but can anyone just answer me this simple question: Does the Roman Catholic Church have a necessary role in the salvation of every human being, be him Christian or non-Christian?

Mark77 has the simple answer to your query.

That’s the problem, 200 pages written by a theologian.

**The Catechism makes it clear in a short passage;

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

"How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.** He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (CCC 846-847)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

Note two things;

1. Every soul ever born is accounted for, in the sense that The Church ‘reaches’ everyone.
2. You either can be saved through the first part of the ‘reformulation’ (CCC:846)…or can be saved through the second part. (CCC:847)

Multitudes try and ‘explain’ it as the theologian you’ve just read, and the result is the same confusion you were left with!

It’s actually pretty simple once you understand the 2-parts of the dogma. There is no scenario that anyone can conjure up that can escape it!

No one wakes up in Heaven and exclaims; 'Hey! I didn’t even know this was here, or anything about a Hell. I was just happy, living, and don’t need this! ’

 

[Roy5]

Okay. What about someone like me, who comes from a mixed Catholic-Protestant background? I am well aware that the Catholic church claims to be the one true church. I follow EWTN, read such Catholic publications as Our Sunday Visitor, America, US Catholic, and Commonweal, am well-versed in everything from the Church Fathers to the Catechism, wrote my undergraduate thesis on Aquinas, etc. Still, I do not believe for a minute that I need to be a Catholic to be saved. In fact, I find that idea alien to the heart of Christ’s message and helps keep me from being part of the Catholic church.

I would find Catholicism far more attractive to me personally if it was more accepting of diverse views. Was Mary a perpetual virgin, for example? Frankly, I don't care. There's nothing in the Bible about that - and she was married to Joseph. Why is that doctrine so paramount? Or, this whole transubstantiation teaching. I can accept that Christ is everywhere - 'lo, I am with you always' - so he certainly is present in the Eucharist. But he is equally present anywhere we happen to be. Or, confession. Yes, I know what Christ told the disciples, but I find it hard to believe that a priest can declare sins forgiven. That strikes me as God's job, not that of any man, even the most saintly priest.

And we could go on. But you get my point.

 

[Vico]

Okay. What about someone like me, who comes from a mixed Catholic-Protestant background? I am well aware that the Catholic church claims to be the one true church. I follow EWTN, read such Catholic publications as Our Sunday Visitor, America, US Catholic, and Commonweal, am well-versed in everything from the Church Fathers to the Catechism, wrote my undergraduate thesis on Aquinas, etc. Still, I do not believe for a minute that I need to be a Catholic to be saved. In fact, I find that idea alien to the heart of Christ’s message and helps keep me from being part of the Catholic church.

I would find Catholicism far more attractive to me personally if it was more accepting of diverse views. Was Mary a perpetual virgin, for example? Frankly, I don’t care. There’s nothing in the Bible about that - and she was married to Joseph. Why is that doctrine so paramount? Or, this whole transubstantiation teaching. I can accept that Christ is everywhere - ‘lo, I am with you always’ - so he certainly is present in the Eucharist. But he is equally present anywhere we happen to be. Or, confession. Yes, I know what Christ told the disciples, but I find it hard to believe that a priest can declare sins forgiven. That strikes me as God’s job, not that of any man, even the most saintly priest.

And we could go on. But you get my point.

These are all due to the grace of the Holy Spirit:

Must be in the Church for salvation. We become a member of the Church by valid baptism, but we may be in the invisible Church rather than the visible Church. The Church is the Communion of Saints.

Perpetual virginity. Mary, preserved from the first moment of her conception. This points to Christ.

Transubstantiation. This is the Holy Spirit behind the unchanged physical appearance of the Eucharist. We must believe that we receive the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit to be received.

Absolution. This is the power to bind and loosen sins given to the ministers of the Church.

Baltimore Catechism No. 3:

Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:

1. 
   *]Has been validly baptized;
   *]Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
   *]Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.
   
   Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
   A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.
   
   Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
   A. Such persons are said to belong to the “soul of the church”; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.
   
   Q. 513. Why must the true Church be visible?
   A. The true Church must be visible because its founder, Jesus Christ, commanded us under pain of condemnation to hear the Church; and He could not in justice command us to hear a Church that could not be seen and known.
   
   Q. 514. What excuses do some give for not becoming members of the true Church?
   A. The excuses some give for not becoming members of the true church are:
   
   1. 
      *]They do not wish to leave the religion in which they were born.
      *]There are too many poor and ignorant people in the Catholic Church.
      *]One religion is as good as another if we try to serve God in it, and be upright and honest in our lives.
      
      Q. 515. How do you answer such excuses?
      A.
      
      1. 
         *]To say that we should remain in a false religion because we were born in it is as untrue as to say we should not heal our bodily diseases because we were born with them.
         *]To say there are too many poor and ignorant in the Catholic Church is to declare that it is Christ’s Church; for He always taught the poor and ignorant and instructed His Church to continue the work.
         *]To say that one religion is as good as another is to assert that Christ labored uselessly and taught falsely; for He came to abolish the old religion and found the new in which alone we can be saved as He Himself declared.

 

[Third_Day]

It seems to me that scripture tells us there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church for those who are aware of the truth. Scripture tells us this.

Matt 16:18-19" Simon… you are Rock and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven."

1 Tim 3:15
" If I am delayed you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, **which is **the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

Should we come to know the truth of the Catholic Church then we are bound to adhere to it.

Hebrews 9:25-10:26
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the Day drawing near **for if we sin deliberately **after receiving the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries

Hebrews 6:4–6
“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away.”

There are some who do not know the truth of the Catholic Church.

Romans 10:14 “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?”

Galatians 1:13 " For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it."

1 Tim 1:13 “Though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief.”

Luke 12:47-48 “And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not make ready or act according to his will shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know and did what deserved a beating **shall receive a light beating. **Everyone to whom much is given much will be required.”

John 15:22
“If I had not come to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin”

Jesus tells us that those to whom He has not come will not have sin. Does this mean those outside the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ, go straight to heaven? No, we must take all of scripture. They will be judged by the natural law.

Romans 2:14
“When Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing or perhaps excusing them. This will take place on the day when **God will judge men’s secrets **through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

Acts 10:34-35 " And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. "

1 Cor 5:12-13
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside

Eph 3:7-10
I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord

Not all will be saved

Matt. 7:13:
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

A persons best chance for salvation is in the Catholic Church because it was established by Jesus Christ so that " we may no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the cunning of men by their craftiness in deceitful wiles." Eph. 4:14

 

[JonNC]

That’s the problem, 200 pages written by a theologian.

**The Catechism makes it clear in a short passage;

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

"How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.** He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (CCC 846-847)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

Hi Mark,
Leaving aside CCC 817-819 for a moment, is it your understaning of this teaching that Orthodox Christians, though according to the CC have valid orders and sacraments, cannot be saved because they are outside the CC?

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi Mark,

Leaving aside CCC 817-819 for a moment, is it your understaning of this teaching that Orthodox Christians, though according to the CC have valid orders and sacraments, cannot be saved because they are outside the CC?

 

[JonNC]

=Gabriel of 12;7001610]

Blessings JonNC; The Orthodox that are not in communion with the Pope and seperated communion also with our Eastern Orthodox Catholic communities who remain in communion with the pope, deals with ecclesial and discipline issues, not the matter of salvation.

Greetings my friend. What does this mean? Are the Orthodox not in communion with Rome, and therefore outside the Catholic Church, saved? Does the CCC say there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, except the Orthodox?

Protestantism on the other hand have deviated from the divine fundamental sacramental system which not only brings one into the kingdom of God, these sacraments also sustain one in salvation through Jesus Christ himself.

And yet, the CCC says: "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Does this then mean that as a baptized Christian , can be saved, though not a formal member of the institutional Catholic Church? If the Spirit uses my “ecclesial community”
as a means of salvation, how can one say I cannot be saved? I guess the real question is, am I, by virtue of my baptism, inside the Catholic Church, or not?

Protestantism in general removed themselves into believing that they, themselves can believe how one is to enter into salvation through the scriptures and faith alone. The difference here is where protestants leave off on the subject of salvation from the scriptures and faith, the Catholic Church takes it to the next level, by working out our salvation with fear and trembling through the sacraments instituted by Jesus Christ.

In other words, Catholics and Protestants can agree that only Jesus saves, no works, nothing but the grace of God through the sacrament of baptism. It is here that Protestants and Catholics agree. But Catholicism does not stop here. She continues in faith by works, by working out our salvation with fear and trembling in the graces of God bestowed upon the Children of God beginning from baptism

.
Don’t be too general. Lutheran teaching is very clear regarding the necessity of works.

Protestants preach sola scriptura, sola fide but this is only entrance into the kingdom of God. The Catholic Church has the answer for the born again believer to sustain the graces of God, once a Child of God is born again through water and the spirit (John 3:3-8) in baptism. Once the Catholic Church takes the infant of God off the milk, the Catholic church teaches the neophyte how to eat meat (Gospel) by walking and working out his/her salvation. ).

We are sustained by the word, and the sacraments, by confession/Holy Absolution and the Eucharist, the means of grace.

Thus salvation can only be found in the Catholic Church (body of Jesus Christ)

Am I part of the Body of Christ, by virtue of my baptism?

Peace be with you

And also with you,
Jon

 

[ufamtobie]

The Catholic Church is likend to Noahs Ark those who were in the Ark were all saved, those who were not in the ARK all drowned.

Thank you Lord for giving me the Grace to be Catholic. And I pray that all who are not part of the Catholic Church become a Member of your One True Church. Amen

Ufamtobie

 

[Newbie2]

Hi Mark,
Leaving aside CCC 817-819 for a moment, is it your understaning of this teaching that Orthodox Christians, though according to the CC have valid orders and sacraments, cannot be saved because they are outside the CC?

Jon

We have to be very careful in discussing this teaching not to say or imply that there is no salvation outside the ROMAN Catholic Church. I get the impression that many Catholics (some outside and some inside of this forum) don’t understand the meaning and intent of the word “Catholic” in the context of salvation.

 

[JonNC]

We have to be very careful in discussing this teaching not to say or imply that there is no salvation outside the ROMAN Catholic Church. I get the impression that many Catholics (some outside and some inside of this forum) don’t understand the meaning and intent of the word “Catholic” in the context of salvation.

Good point, Newbie. Let me phrase it this way: does one have to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome to have any chance of salvation?
Or, when the CCC says, "Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”, does that mean by virtue of my baptism that I am linked to and part of the Catholic Church, “though imperfectly”, ?

Jon

 

[Newbie2]

Good point, Newbie. Let me phrase it this way: does one have to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome to have any chance of salvation?

Although that would be the ideal, no.

Or, when the CCC says, "Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”, does that mean by virtue of my baptism that I am linked to and part of the Catholic Church, “though imperfectly”, ?

Yep.

Jon

Here the Church has quite a challenge to define what is meant by this teaching, and methinks for the most part has done it well.

On one hand, if the CC says that sure, salvation is possible for those outside the Church many take it the wrong way; why bother being a Catholic if others can achieve salvation, they would say.

On the other hand, she has done well to stress the notion of an imperfect union, as you said, Jon, is still a union to one degree or another.

The Church teaches that Muslims and Jews have a ***chance ***of salvation, why not Lutherans?

 

[Vico]

Here the Church has quite a challenge to define what is meant by this teaching, and methinks for the most part has done it well.

On one hand, if the CC says that sure, salvation is possible for those outside the Church many take it the wrong way; why bother being a Catholic if others can achieve salvation, they would say.

On the other hand, she has done well to stress the notion of an imperfect union, as you said, Jon, is still a union to one degree or another.

The Church teaches that Muslims and Jews have a ***chance ***of salvation, why not Lutherans?

Read this from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (2007), which comments on “subsists in” and use of “Church” for Catholic and separated orientals but not for those of the Reformation.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

=Gabriel of 12;7001610]
Greetings my friend. What does this mean? Are the Orthodox not in communion with Rome, and therefore outside the Catholic Church, saved? Does the CCC say there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, except the Orthodox?

At last we are getting into the mystical teachings of the gospel here involving the body of Christ as revealed from scripture;

The Orthodox are not outside of the Catholic Church, they, themselves have removed themselves from communion with the Pope, removing themselves as independent bodies from the head of the Church. This is an ecclessial seperation of authority. The Orthodox remain in the Catholic Church. Because these like the Roman Church are “Stewards of the mysteries of God” to be given to all humanity in every age. This is the salvation that the Catholic Church was divinely instituted by Jesus Christ himself, to be a light unto all the nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
(1Cor.4:1 Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God)

What are these mysteries? To be given the power from God to “Forgive sin, and they will be forgiven”, Fish men into the Kingdom of God through the baptismal waters, feed, teach and tend the people of God. In short the mysteries are the sacraments instituted by Jesus Christ, the stewards are the apostles and their successors in the Catholic Bishops which include both East and West Catholics who maintain valid sacraments and valid holy orders in the successors of the apostles. There is much more to expound on these biblical mysteries.

And yet, the CCC says: "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation

, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Mother Church is very wise here because she knows that these Christian virtues, grace, faith, hope and charity originated in the Catholic Church handed down from the apostles including the gifts of the holy spirit. Our seperated brethren have taken from mother Church these spiritual gifts which the Catholic church cannot refute their divine origin and power. Yet these are a “means of salvation” that stems from the Catholic church. Thus if a protestant is manifested with such blessings from God, they all stem from the Catholic Church from whom Jesus Christ is the head of; thus "there cannot be no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, because if one is practicing these gifts outside of the Catholic church are being called to unity in the Catholic church because they are a means to this salvation in the Catholic Church.

Many of the early Church Fathers who are all in agreement “there is no salvation outside the Catholic church” are not as soft to the touch as our present day Fathers of the Catholic church. So I will give you St. Augustines quote that applies here;

"One cannot have (salvation) except in the Catholic Church, outside of the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing the alleluia, one can answer the Amen, one can have the Gospel, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and preach, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church. (sermon to the poeple fthe Church of Caesarea, chapt. 6)

Does this then mean that as a baptized Christian , can be saved, though not a formal member of the institutional Catholic Church? If the Spirit uses my “ecclesial community”
as a means of salvation, how can one say I cannot be saved? I guess the real question is, am I, by virtue of my baptism, inside the Catholic Church, or not?

]

The Catholic church teaches from the quote you mentioned that all those who are graced with these Catholic virtues and gifts from God fall under the “unbrella” if you will of the Catholic Church where salvation is freely given.

Don’t be too general. Lutheran teaching is very clear regarding the necessity of works.

Forgive me, at times it becomes difficult to put into words when addressing Protestantism in general because of the diverse teachings in each community.

We are sustained by the word, and the sacraments, by confession/Holy Absolution and the Eucharist, the means of grace.
Am I part of the Body of Christ, by virtue of my baptism?

All of the above have characteristics of Catholicism including baptism. Being a part of the body of Christ lends to the protestant understanding, and **being in the body of Jesus Christ is a Catholic understanding **when Jesus Christ is our head.

P.S grant it that those Orthodox who refuse communion with the Pope do not have any such authority as an autocephalus (independent) church ( with no head of authority over the whole Christian church world wide) to dictate such a rejection of the sacraments from a successor to the apostles especially Peter in the Popes. This says alot of the authority problem they have, that although they may not recognize the Roman Catholic sacraments, the Pope cannot deny the True Presence of Jesus Christ in any valid sacrament, yet these not in communion with the whole of christendom do not have jurisdiction to refuse the True presence of Jesus body and blood in his valid Sacrament. Yet they remain defiant today.

Peace be with you

 

[lutherlic]

We have to be very careful in discussing this teaching not to say or imply that there is no salvation outside the ROMAN Catholic Church. I get the impression that many Catholics (some outside and some inside of this forum) don’t understand the meaning and intent of the word “Catholic” in the context of salvation.

Thank you Newbie2, I was about to say something similar when I read your reply.

There is not salvation outside of the universal Church, explicitly but not exclusively the Catholic Church. All Christians enter the Church through their baptism. That is the Church that scripture and the catechism refer to. This includes Protestants (according the fullness of their communion) and even non-Christians who, though non-Christian by no fault of their own, seek God and holiness. These groups all comprise the Church Militant of the Communion of Saints.

 

[Vico]

Thank you Newbie2, I was about to say something similar when I read your reply.

There is not salvation outside of the universal Church, explicitly but not exclusively the Catholic Church. All Christians enter the Church through their baptism. That is the Church that scripture and the catechism refer to. This includes Protestants (according the fullness of their communion) and even non-Christians who, though non-Christian by no fault of their own, seek God and holiness. These groups all comprise the Church Militant of the Communion of Saints.

I have never read that it includes the non baptised, only that we can hope for God’s mercy for the unbaptised.

Having access to the Sacrament of Penance is also very important after Baptism.

It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person: 1) has as been validly baptized; 2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and 3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance. (Baltimore Catechism No 3)

 

[Robbinson]

I thought the two catechism cites (current CCC and Baltimore) outlined clearly what “salvation through the Church” means and the circumstances under which those who are not Catholic (whether Christian or non-Chrisitian) may nonetheless find salvation.

The post citing the numerous scriptural verses supporting the idea that we are held accountable to the level of revelaiton made available to us was spot on as well.

None of us know the interior beliefs and what is in the heart of another. I’m sure there are many Christians and non-Chrisitans “aware of Catholic doctrine” who still suffer from “invincible ignorance” (understand it intellectually but are blinded to the truth - have not been drawn to the fullness of truth by God) and salvation is therefore “possible”.

However, there are many, I"m sure, who recognize, in their heart, God’s calling to the fullness of faith in the Church who remain disobedient to that calling (either for family reasons, worldly reasons, or otherwise). For these, salvation would not be available outside the Church as this is a “rejection” of the Holy Spirit.

Ultimately - all of us (regardless of denomination or faith) need to eagerly and earnestly search of God. All of us who are Christian need to follow Christ’s command and preach the gospel (in word and in deed) and all of us who are Catholic need to share the teaching of the Church and be prepared to explain what we understand and why. God will care for the rest.

We should share our faith, never compromise our belief, and yet never judge oneanother - that is God’s job. We (collectively) spend way too much time judging one another whereas Jesus prayed for unity. Lets continue to celebrate our common love of God (and among Christians) common love of Christ and if we are faithful servants, our example will fertizlie the soil for the Word of God for others.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Newbie2]

Thank you Newbie2, I was about to say something similar when I read your reply.

There is not salvation outside of the universal Church, explicitly but not exclusively the Catholic Church. All Christians enter the Church through their baptism. That is the Church that scripture and the catechism refer to. This includes Protestants (according the fullness of their communion) and even non-Christians who, though non-Christian by no fault of their own, seek God and holiness. These groups all comprise the Church Militant of the Communion of Saints.

Again, we have to be careful of how we define these terms. “Catholic” means “universal”.