No Salvation Outside The Church?

[inkaneer]

J,

At present I cannot. But, I can tell you that Jesus is the Church. You just do not have the full understanding of the meaning behind the word “Church”. Jesus and the Church are one in the same, and they separate, depending upon the context you are using the word.

When Jesus started preaching the gospel, he got people to believe in what He was saying about salvation. Some didn’t as well. But, Jesus also told them that believing in Him was not enough, that is why He Baptized them, Confirmed them, and gave Him His physical (mystical) Body too. Jesus’ followers (believers) believe in all of the things that Jesus passed on to them. Not just the fact that He is God. This is the full meaning of a believer.

In the future can we all be a little more observant? I say this because the post I am referencing here is post #280 on page 19 but it is responding to a post by Jericho that was post #11. on page 1 or 2. Be aware that the discussion may have progressed several pages since your last post or visit. It will help keep the discussion on track.

 

[twb1621]

Could you please give me the chapter and verse that says salvation is through His body the church? Believers make up the body, the church. The church organization dosen’t make the body.

In the beginning of the ministry of Christ, He was the Earthly Teacher, Rabbi, Master, and the apostles were the disciples, forming what would be considered the first of His Church with Him as the authority. The apostles were the initial disciples, Christ was present to teach His Word as the Master. Jesus is and always will be the high Priest. However, He assigned His apostles to continue His teachings and established His Church as an entity in His absence with the instructions to go forth and preach His Word to all nations. He also assigned 72 others as ministers of His Church to go forth and preach to all nations. Now, the Church hierarchy as an entity is the overseeing Body of His teachings and continues until His return by His own covenant with her to serve Him as He directed from the beginning. The Church includes the disciples or faithful students. But the Church authority established by Him are the teachers and are of whom the following scripture verses pertain to.

Matthew CH18; 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. 18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Church is the Final authority)

Luke CH10; 16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (do you see salvation and condemnation involved here?)

John CH12; 44 Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me, 45 and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me. 46 I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me.”

1 Timothy CH3; 15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

There are many many references providing proof of the establishment of the Church and a hierarchy if you need them.

Peace

 

[twb1621]

Could you please give me the chapter and verse that says salvation is through His body the church? Believers make up the body, the church. The church organization dosen’t make the body.

continued from previous post;

2 Timothy CH1; 9 He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed preacher and apostle and teacher.

 

[guanophore]

So why become Catholic? And how does this pertain to a lifelong Catholic who leaves the Church and joins a non-Catholic Church, because he disagrees with the CC teachings?

For some, there is no motivation to do so whatsoever. They are more than happy with their truncated version of Christianity, content in the tradition of Apollos.

A Catholic who leaves is not covered by these principles. Most of those who leave the Church never really undersood the Teachings. They don’t even qualify as apostates, since they are leaving only what they imagine is true, having been poorly catechized.

After ignorance, the next highest percentage of persons baptized Catholic who leave do so out of moral disobedience. They reject the Teachings of Jesus because they wish to gratify their own flesh. Persons who do such things do not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying a Pope of the Catholic Church taught error?

No, but there are some expressions and beliefs of Popes that are erroneous, Honorius not being the first, though one of the most grievious. Let’s not turn this thread into examples of popes who wrote things or pronounced things that are clearly an opposition to the Gospel of Christ. They are human. They make mistakes. Not everything they publish is protected by the gift of infallibility.

 

[guanophore]

Modern Protestants don’t separate themselves from the Church?!?

No, they don’t. Many of them never even think about Catholicism, and don’t have any motivation to find out. They were born into separation, baptized, into her within ecclesial communities that are separated, and are spawned from separations that occurred 500+ years ago. They don’t know that the Catholic Church is the only Church. They think it is “just another denomination”.

I don’t see them lining up outside the Confessionals and defending the Real Presence. That, is separation.

Why would they? Most of them are ‘bible christians’ who have been taught to confess their sins “directly to God”, and believe that Jn. 6 is “symbolic”. Some of them have never even heard of the Real Presence! They think Catholics “added to the Bible” because they don’t even know where their bible came from. I did not say they weren’t separated, I just said they did not separate themselves.

These are not minor dogmatic contentions.

No, and I did not claim they were.

It’s been posted numerous times throughout this thread. If you are not in the Church, you cannot hope for salvation.

Yes, but you seem to be conflating the mystical body of Christ with the visible Church.

Syllabus of Errors “16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.”

I think you misunderstand me, Anne. There is no salvation outside of Christ, and for that reason, outside of His One Body, the Church. Therefore, all who are saved, whatever religion they espouse, are saved through the Church.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that the Orthodox are not in union with the Church. They are in schism.

There are almost as many Orthodox that don’t understand schism as there are Protestants who think Catholicism is a denominatinon. Each soul will be judged according to the light they have received.

This has nothing to do with the point that the Church must “breathe with both lungs”, East & West. The two lungs of the Church must necessarily be united. A “lung” in schism is a separated lung and of no use to the body. You cannot breathe from a lung that is not attached.

Are you saying you think the Orthodox are not “attached” to us?

Because to enter heaven, you must be made perfect. Later on, you harp on the term “separated brethren”. I think you are forgetting, that while we might be able to “imperfectly” call them brothers, they are still separated. And unless they find union, they are outside the Church. A man is either in, or he is out… if you try to straddle the line, you will fall out.

Well, I am in agreement with you. However, Jesus is clear that it is not within our purview to pull out the weeds. We are to leave them growing for Him to separate at the harvest. I think you have made the good point that evangelism is essential.

So who are you canonizing that the Church has not?

You complained that the Church never canonized non-Catholics. Why would they? Since there are so many Catholics who have been perfected in faith, why would they canonize someone who was imperfectly joined?

I’m not saying only the Saints whom the Church has canonized are in Heaven, but you are asserting either a) that someone who rejected the Faith is in Heaven, or b) that God withheld saving knowledge of Himself and His Church from someone and thus saved them because they were ignorant.

Is that a problem for you?

Both are false.

I would not characterize it in the way you have. God gives to each person sufficient grace to respond to Him. Some of them are outside the boundaries of the visible Church.

Are you saying that the CCC is in error? Do you believe there is no such thing as invincible ignorance?

 

[guanophore]

Baptism is key, yes. The second a man is baptized validly he is Catholic. The moment he embraces heresy, he is a heretic.

No, Anne, this is not the case. There are plenty of well meaning believers, including Catholics that embrace heresies. I was just on another thread about Mary the Mother of God containing posts of many people that are avowed Trinitarians and believe in the incarnation. However, their posts reflected the Nestorian heresy, because they have embraced problems in reasoning.

A vast majority of Protestants, particularly modern American Evangelicals and fundamentlists have been taught the heresy of Sola Scriptura from the day they were “born again”. They have no clue that this is an heretical belief. That is why the CCC says they do not qualify as heretics. Heresy requires that one have known and embraced the Truth, then willfully departed from it in favor of something opposite. These people have never understood and known the Truth.

By our Baptism, we have a duty to study our faith and seek the Truth. Such study would lead someone to the Catholic Church where they can find salvation.

I agree about our duty to study and seek, but the assertion that one is necessarily led and will find the Catholic faith is not necessarily so. There are many of us that have studied our way in, but there are far more that are studying diligently, and actually get further away because they are following lost leaders.

What do you think “separated” means?
Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.” (#10)

Our separated brethren are not necessarily disunited with us or scattered. There are many who are very faithful witnesses to what they believe and were taught. They are like Apollos - fervent, but misguided. They do recognize Christ as their Head, and are devoted to Him as Lord.

Where? You and cathdoki need to back up your assertions with evidence. I can guess perhaps what you mean, but I am not a mind-reader. God has not granted me the ability to know what others are thinking.

I already saw the instruction of Paul posted above. He made it clear that people will be saved who are not visible members of the Church. Each man is judged by his own conscience.

Where I have provided interpretation? I have posted the words of the Magisterium, verbatim (well, worthy English translations… if all would understand the original languages, I would use those).

You are interpreting “Church” as visible church. Not all who are saved are members of the visible Catholic Church.

But it is my duty and responsibility to preach that without conversion, such souls are hellbound.

I think your manner of evangelism will yield very limited results. You are not starting with an affirmation of their faith.

Our understanding does not change the essential meaning (i.e., that there is no salvation outside the Church).

No, but it changes how we apply the infallible and timeless truth to the conditions in which we presently live.

“The faith which God has revealed has not been proposed like a theory of philosophy, to be elaborated upon by human understanding, but as a divine deposit to be faithfully guarded and infallibly declared. Therefore, that sense of sacred dogmas is to be kept forever which Holy Mother Church has once declared, and it must never be deviated from on the specious pretext of a more profound understanding. Let intelligence, and science, and wisdom increase, but only according to the same dogma, the same sense, the same meaning. If anyone shall have said that there may ever be attributed to the doctrines proposed by the Church a sense which is different from the sense which the Church has once understood and now understands: let him be anathema.” I Vatican Council,* Dei Filius*

Anne, you have misunderstood me. Why are you so afraid?

 

[guanophore]

Vatican I, * Papal Oath* “This true Catholic faith, outside which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold, I do promise and swear that I will most constantly keep and confess whole and inviolate with the help of God until the last breath of my life, and that I will take great care that it be held, taught, and preached by my inferiors and by those who are placed under my charge.”

We covered this ground already. All salvation occurs through the Church. Some saved persons are not members of the visible Catholic Church.

No, and their validly baptized children are Catholics. But when we come of age and have the use of reason, we are obliged to study and seek the Truth. To the degree to which we fail to do this, we are culpable.

Where does Rome encourage the faithful to partake of Orthodox sacraments?

When there are mixed marriages and a Roman Catholic is pastored in an Orthodox Epharchy, and where there are no Roman Catholic sacraments available. Eastern rite and Roman Catholics living in predominantly Orthodox geographical regions can be dispensed, and are encouraged to participate in the sacramental life in their community.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm

The Church teaches that there is no remission of sin outside the Church. That’s the point.

You seem to be conflating the visible church with the mystical. God remits sins of those who are not members of the visible Catholic church.

No, Jesus is not 'restricted' by the Sacraments. They are His. But He has not revealed to us any other means of salvation, nor that He would act outside of what He has revealed through His Church.

Well, we differ on what has been revealed, but I do agree that it makes no sense to act outside of what He has provided as the means.

What is puzzling is that you seem to be starting from a place of what others lack, rather than what they have embraced that is Catholic, with the goal of drawing them into embracing more.

Statements AFTER the Reformation:

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #5 (and #9): “The Church…regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own…The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium…Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adultress. [SIGN]He has cut himself off[/SIGN] from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ…He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.”

This is the point you seem to be missing, Anne. These people have not cut themselves off. They were born into conditions by which they were separated. The separation happened centuries ago.

Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscum #10 “See to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds this dogma of our most holy religion: the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation.”

This is a pastoral instruction to the clergy. It is talking about the “faithful” - Catholics.

Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda Sane #9 “Where is the road which leads us to Jesus Christ? It is the Church. It is our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, the absolute necessity we are under to have recourse to this Church in order to work out our eternal salvation.”

Do you really believe that you are fulfilling this duty by disregarding the portion of the Truth they have already received?

 

[twb1621]

In reading the excerpts provided and hopefully the continuance to read the entire document through the link below, it is hopeful there will be a better understanding by non-Catholics of what the proclamation means. It should be noted that a Catholic educated in the fullness of Christ’s teachings that leave’s the Church has relinquished salvation unless repentance is made hence, no salvation outside the Church. There is no such thing as an ex-Catholic. One can not unlearn the full teachings of Christ to accept partial and/or distorted teachings that make life more pleasurable through self-indulgences. Rejecting teachings that one does not understand or agree with in the Catholic Faith is selective and scripture is clear if one rejects some of His Word he or she rejects all His Word. Yet this is the very inspiration behind the establishment of the many non-Catholic Christian faiths; selectively choosing what one chooses to believe and what to avoid in scripture.

Each Christian has his or her own responsibility to seek the Truth. Where questions arise, there should be the devotion to Christ to seek the answers when it comes to Christian teachings. Those who never knew Catholicism can not know of their partial or misguided teachings where they exist and one does not commit a sin without the elements of willful actions in the knowledge it is a sin.

Excerpts from “NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH”, by Fr. William Most

#16 says: “For they who without their own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation.” John Paul II in his Encyclical on the Missions in #10 says the same [underline added]: “For such people [those who do not formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them part of the Church.” We underline the word “formally” to indicated that there may be something less than formal membership, which yet suffices for salvation. A similar thought is found in LG #14 which says “they are fully incorporated” who accept all its organization. . . . ." We will show presently that there can be a lesser, or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation.

the Decree on Religious Liberty in #1 says that" it [this decree] leaves untouched the traditional Catholic doctrine about the duty of men and societies to the true religion and the one and only ] Church of Christ." So there really is only one true Church.And they think that follows from the words about “subsisting in” and the statement that elements of sanctification can be found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church.

This does not mean that there are other legitimate forms of Christianity. Pope Gregory XVI (DS 2730. Cf. Pius IX, DS 2915 and Leo XIII, DS 3250) condemned “an evil opinion that souls can attain eternal salvation just any profession of faith, if their morals follow the right norm.” So although people who do not formally join can be saved, as LG #16 says, and #10 also says, they are not saved such a faith. It is in spite of it.

Yet we can account for the words about and about finding elements of salvation outside. For this we need the help of the Fathers of the Church…Source continued at http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT

Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

1 Corinthians CH1;10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

**If all Christians were of one mind and spoke the same thing we all would be Catholic to this day. **

 

[AnneElliot]

No, but there are some expressions and beliefs of Popes that are erroneous, Honorius not being the first, though one of the most grievious. Let’s not turn this thread into examples of popes who wrote things or pronounced things that are clearly an opposition to the Gospel of Christ. They are human. They make mistakes. Not everything they publish is protected by the gift of infallibility.

In all the letters that Pope Honorius I wrote that included heresy, not once did he claim to speak with the voice of St. Peter, or condemn or define anything. You need to look at the wording in Unam Sanctam again before you brush it off as non-infallible.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce…”

you seem to be conflating the mystical body of Christ with the visible Church.

You are interpreting “Church” as visible church. Not all who are saved are members of the visible Catholic Church.

You seem to be conflating the visible church with the mystical. God remits sins of those who are not members of the visible Catholic church.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #3 “If we consider the chief end of His Church and the proximate efficient causes of salvation, it is undoubtedly spiritual; but in regard to those who constitute it, and to the things which lead to these spiritual gifts, it is external and necessarily visible.”
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #3 “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ - “Now you are the body of Christ” (I Cor. 12:27)-and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible… From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error.”
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html

Can you provide one Magisterial teaching which claims that God “remits sins of those who are not members of the visible Catholic” Church?

You complained that the Church never canonized non-Catholics. Why would they?

First off, a correction. I did not “complain” that the Church never canonized non-Catholics, nor would I! They are outside the Church! I offered the fact that the Church has never canonized a non-Catholic as evidence for the necessity of conversion to the Catholic Church…

Are you saying that the CCC is in error? Do you believe there is no such thing as invincible ignorance?

“The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess.” Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger,* Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church*, p. 26

The CCC does not grant anything doctrinal value, its authority (and weight) come from the declarations made by the Magisterium outside of the Catechism.

Invincible ignorance is a theory… Regardless, while ignorance can excuse a person, it cannot save him.

Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt** in this matter before the eyes of the Lord”

I agree about our duty to study and seek, but the assertion that one is necessarily led and will find the Catholic faith is not necessarily so.

I meant honest study accompanied by divine grace. If a man asks for grace, God will grant it. That grace WILL lead them to the Church IF they are open to it. If they are not open to that, then they are in turn culpable for what they reject of the graces God gives them. Or do you claim that God does not give all men the graces necessary to find the Catholic Church?

I already saw the instruction of Paul posted above. He made it clear that people will be saved who are not visible members of the Church. Each man is judged by his own conscience.

I missed this then. Please point out where in the Scriptures St. Paul says that persons outside the Church can be saved.

Just because a man is judged by his conscience and can be excused by his ignorance, does not mean his ignorance will save him.

We covered this ground already. All salvation occurs through the Church. Some saved persons are not members of the visible Catholic Church.

And yet… who has been saved who was not a member of the visible Catholic Church? Can you provide one name?

Well, we differ on what has been revealed, but I do agree that it makes no sense to act outside of what He has provided as the means.

By all means, demonstrate what I have not presented in the Church’s official teachings that has been revealed.

This is the point you seem to be missing, Anne. These people have not cut themselves off. They were born into conditions by which they were separated. The separation happened centuries ago.

And yet, they are still affected by the separation, just as we are still affected by Original Sin until Baptism. Just because it happened centuries ago doesn’t mean it does not need to be remedied in order to find salvation. A soul that dies with only Original Sin on its soul cannot enter Heaven.

Separation IS separation. Not union.

 

[guanophore]

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #3 “If we consider the chief end of His Church and the proximate efficient causes of salvation, it is undoubtedly spiritual; but in regard to those who constitute it, and to the things which lead to these spiritual gifts, it is external and necessarily visible.”
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #3 “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ - “Now you are the body of Christ” (I Cor. 12:27)-and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible… From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error.”
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html

Can you provide one Magisterial teaching which claims that God “remits sins of those who are not members of the visible Catholic” Church?

I guess you are in disagreement witht the Catechism, which makes it clear that any person who is validly baptised has the remission of sins.

I am not arguing against the visible church, as you seem to think. I am only saying that there are those who are saved that obvious members of her. This is not a result of “arbitrary conjuring” but because Christ, in His mercy, has joined them to the grace that is only poured out through the Church.

First off, a correction. I did not “complain” that the Church never canonized non-Catholics, nor would I! They are outside the Church! I offered the fact that the Church has never canonized a non-Catholic as evidence for the necessity of conversion to the Catholic Church…

Sorry, poor choice of words. It doesn’t seem like a very useful arguement to me, since our separated brethren do not recognize or appreciate canonization anyway.

They believe that everyone who dies in Christ goes directly to heaven, so they pay no attention to those who have been declared as saints by the Church.

“The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess.” Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger,* Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church*, p. 26

The CCC does not grant anything doctrinal value, its authority (and weight) come from the declarations made by the Magisterium outside of the Catechism.

We are in complete agreement on this as well. What is curious is that you reject it’s contents…

Invincible ignorance is a theory… Regardless, while ignorance can excuse a person, it cannot save him.

No, we are all saved by grace, through faith, when we are brought into His One Body, the Church. Some people are saved through her when they do not realize it.

Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt** in *this ***matter before the eyes of the Lord”

I have to admit, I do get a little chapped when I read such passages. It is a reflection of the culturally myopic perspective of the Roman Pontiffs. The Catholic Church has never been “Roman”, and will never be. The other 22 non-Latin Rites of the Church are every bit as “Catholic” as our Latin brethren, and remain in communion with the successor of Peter in Rome.

I contend that most “bible christians” live in such ignorance about the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, through which they have come to know the grace of salvation.

I meant honest study accompanied by divine grace. If a man asks for grace, God will grant it. That grace WILL lead them to the Church IF they are open to it. If they are not open to that, then they are in turn culpable for what they reject of the graces God gives them. Or do you claim that God does not give all men the graces necessary to find the Catholic Church?

I am contending that many respond to grace, yet do not find her.

I missed this then. Please point out where in the Scriptures St. Paul says that persons outside the Church can be saved.

This is a useless exercise, so long as you conflate the mystical body with the visible.

Just because a man is judged by his conscience and can be excused by his ignorance, does not mean his ignorance will save him.

No, it means that he may be saved without being an idenfiable member of the visible church.

 

[guanophore]

And yet… who has been saved who was not a member of the visible Catholic Church? Can you provide one name?

It is not our purview to determine such things. This is the privilege of God alone. Why do you invite me into sin?

By all means, demonstrate what I have not presented in the Church’s official teachings that has been revealed.

It lies more in the application of the teachings. Your are starting from a point of lack - what our separated brethren lack (full communion with the One Church). Your arguements are based upon official Catholic documents which they do not recognize or accept. How effective have you found this method? Do you have a large group of converts that can testify that your assertions they are not saved have caused them to become members of the visible Catholic Church?

And yet, they are still affected by the separation, just as we are still affected by Original Sin until Baptism.

And after it as well. Although baptism washes away the sin, our concupiscience remains.

Just because it happened centuries ago doesn’t mean it does not need to be remedied in order to find salvation. A soul that dies with only Original Sin on its soul cannot enter Heaven.

And I have never claimed that remediation is not necessary. What I am saying is that these people cannot be charged with the sin of separation.

Separation IS separation. Not union.

Which brings me back to the practical question. How does invalidating what little grace they have recieved draw them into the bosom of the Church?

 

[inkaneer]

So why become Catholic? And how does this pertain to a lifelong Catholic who leaves the Church and joins a non-Catholic Church, because he disagrees with the CC teachings?

Whenever this question comes up I immediately think of the parables Jesus relates in Mt 13:44-50. The kingdom of heaven is the church. It is the pearl of great price that men sacrifice their lives for; the treasure that they abandon all else for. Those who leave it do so at their own peril because by doing so they deny the words of Jesus Himself that His church would be led into all truth.

This question also makes a false assumption that non Catholic assemblies are on a par with Catholicism. They are not for none of them [that includes the Orthodox] have the full deposit of faith entrusted by Jesus to the Apostles. Scripture is clear that Jesus established a church not a cafeteria. You don’t get to pick and choose what you like and want to believe.

 

[AnneElliot]

I guess you are in disagreement witht the Catechism, which makes it clear that any person who is validly baptised has the remission of sins.

I have already addressed the state of those after baptism.

If you have evidence that there is remission of sin outside of the Church, then please produce it.

I am not arguing against the visible church, as you seem to think. I am only saying that there are those who are saved that obvious members of her. This is not a result of “arbitrary conjuring” but because Christ, in His mercy, has joined them to the grace that is only poured out through the Church.

Can you demonstrate the actuality of this through a statement from the Church’s teaching office?

No, we are all saved by grace, through faith, when we are brought into His One Body, the Church. Some people are saved through her when they do not realize it.

But you cannot provide any evidence to demonstrate your point. No Saints who are not members of the Catholic Church, etc.

I have to admit, I do get a little chapped when I read such passages. It is a reflection of the culturally myopic perspective of the Roman Pontiffs. The Catholic Church has never been “Roman”, and will never be. The other 22 non-Latin Rites of the Church are every bit as “Catholic” as our Latin brethren, and remain in communion with the successor of Peter in Rome.

Ah, but you miss the point. The Eastern Catholics ARE in union with the Roman Church.

I contend that most “bible christians” live in such ignorance about the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, through which they have come to know the grace of salvation.

You accuse me of judgment, yet here you are claiming intimate knowledge of a high number (i.e., “most”) of souls.

I am contending that many respond to grace, yet do not find her.

Does God desire that all men come to knowledge of Himself?

This is a useless exercise, so long as you conflate the mystical body with the visible.

Mystical does not mean invisible. Is there a spiritual element to the Church? Of course. But membership in the Church IS visible. If you are aware of a Magisterial statement that says otherwise, please produce it.

No, it means that he may be saved without being an idenfiable member of the visible church.

If this were truly the teaching of the Church, I would be happy to affirm it. However, it’s hogwash.

It lies more in the application of the teachings. Your are starting from a point of lack - what our separated brethren lack (full communion with the One Church). Your arguements are based upon official Catholic documents which they do not recognize or accept. How effective have you found this method? Do you have a large group of converts that can testify that your assertions they are not saved have caused them to become members of the visible Catholic Church?

In this thread I am speaking to Catholics, about Catholic Dogma. Of course I am going to resort to the Magisterium to prove a point. If I were talking to non-Catholics my approach is not to shove a Papal Bull in their face which they care nothing about.

And I have never claimed that remediation is not necessary. What I am saying is that these people cannot be charged with the sin of separation.

Fair enough, however, you still miss the point. They are separated. That separation means something. Just because we may not fault them for causing it, doesn’t mean that they won’t suffer the ill effects of it without remedy.

Which brings me back to the practical question. How does invalidating what little grace they have recieved draw them into the bosom of the Church?

Again, this discussion has been amongst Catholics. This is not my apologetical approach for non-Catholics. However, I don’t lie to them either. If they ask, “do I have to be Catholic to be saved?” the answer is unashamedly, “YES!”

In discussions with non-Catholics, you have to show them that there is only one Church, founded by Christ. That Church is authoritative. And that a particular level of authority was handed on to Peter (the office of steward).

What most Protestants fail to understand, is that the Church, and not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of Truth. If they understood this, they would stop the “bible-thumping” and start looking for that Church. Which is visible. Which is authoritative. And which is established by Our Lord. The Church (the Catholic Church) gave us the Bible.

 

[OKAstro]

Whenever this question comes up I immediately think of the parables Jesus relates in Mt 13:44-50. The kingdom of heaven is the church. It is the pearl of great price that men sacrifice their lives for; the treasure that they abandon all else for. Those who leave it do so at their own peril because by doing so they deny the words of Jesus Himself that His church would be led into all truth.

This question also makes a false assumption that non Catholic assemblies are on a par with Catholicism. They are not for none of them [that includes the Orthodox] have the full deposit of faith entrusted by Jesus to the Apostles. Scripture is clear that Jesus established a church not a cafeteria. You don’t get to pick and choose what you like and want to believe.

Totally agree. My point is that some of the arguments in this thread **against **this CC teaching logically lead to the question - if I can still be saved, why join the CC?

Don’t get me wrong - I read the CCC and what Popes have written, and it is clear what the official CC teaching is…but there’s been so many “that’s not what it means” posts on this thread, that it has frustrated me.

 

[itinerant1]

Totally agree. My point is that some of the arguments in this thread **against **this CC teaching logically lead to the question - if I can still be saved, why join the CC?

Don’t get me wrong - I read the CCC and what Popes have written, and it is clear what the official CC teaching is…but there’s been so many “that’s not what it means” posts on this thread, that it has frustrated me.

Why join the Catholic Church? I answered this question in a previous post. So, I will expand on it here. Although salvation is possible outside formal membership in the Church, as St. Paul made clear, it is God’s will that all men become members of his Church. No one is called by God, for example, to be Protestant, or at least to remain Protestant, since Protestantism is not fully Christ’s Church.

If a person rejects the Catholic Church in favor of being a Protestant, Jew, Moslem, or some other religion, or no religion, then he is rejecting God’s graces. For example, if such a person chooses to become or remain Protestant, then he is rejecting, for example, the sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist. The sacraments, which are being rejected, are aids to salvation. Rejecting aids to salvation can imperil one’s salvation if the person is morally culpable for that act of rejection.

It is primarily a matter of co-operating with God’s plan for salvation, following his will. His plan for us includes full membership and participation in the life of the Church. Of course, not all people have heard the Gospel message and so are judged according to their conscience, according to the natural moral law. Some people, for a variety of reasons, honestly cannot see that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, and so opt for Protestantism. Such persons are still morally obligated to search for the truth of the matter and co-operate with God’s grace and calling.

 

[jericho777]

continued from previous post;

2 Timothy CH1; 9 He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed preacher and apostle and teacher.

Our disagreement comes with the definition of who or what is the “church”. Your view is more of an organization rather than a body made up of individual believers. You are always waiting for direction from an organization rather than operating on what the bible has already revealed.

The apostle Paul is a perfect example of what I believe is the way christians should operate. God calls individuals to service and gives His Holy Spirit to facilitate their mission. It is the Holy Spirit that directs the individual to service.

 

[AnneElliot]

Why join the Catholic Church? I answered this question in a previous post. So, I will expand on it here. Although salvation is possible outside formal membership in the Church, as St. Paul made clear, it is God’s will that all men become members of his Church. No one is called by God, for example, to be Protestant, or at least to remain Protestant, since Protestantism is not fully Christ’s Church.

This is contradictory. How can a man be saved outside of God’s will? It is God’s will that all men become members of His Church, yet you claim there is salvation outside membership in the Church, and thus, outside of the will of God.

If a person rejects the Catholic Church in favor of being a Protestant, Jew, Moslem, or some other religion, or no religion, then he is rejecting God’s graces. For example, if such a person chooses to become or remain Protestant, then he is rejecting, for example, the sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist. The sacraments, which are being rejected, are aids to salvation. Rejecting aids to salvation can imperil one’s salvation if the person is morally culpable for that act of rejection.

It is primarily a matter of co-operating with God’s plan for salvation, following his will. His plan for us includes full membership and participation in the life of the Church. Of course, not all people have heard the Gospel message and so are judged according to their conscience, according to the natural moral law. Some people, for a variety of reasons, honestly cannot see that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, and so opt for Protestantism. Such persons are still morally obligated to search for the truth of the matter and co-operate with God’s grace and calling.

So… are you suggesting that it is God’s will that some people remain ignorant of the Faith?

Because, all people are called to become members of His Church. Yet, some people have not heard the Gospel message… couldn’t God send them a missionary?

Is Divine Providence in control, or not?

People who are ignorant of the Gospel may be saved, yes, but only because God will send them a missionary or reveal to them through internal inspiration what must be believed for salvation. God does not deny the graces necessary for salvation to anyone. It is necessary that a man be a member of the Church for salvation. It is necessary that a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit (Baptism) in order to wash away Original Sin and become a member of the Church. God, in His Divine Providence, who prepared the open heart of some ignorant person, will not leave them without saving knowledge because desires not only that all men be saved, but that they come to knowledge of the Truth. Providence, which rules all, would send that man a missionary or reveal to him in some other way that which is necessary for salvation.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is."

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: Objection- “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith. St. Thomas replies- It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance. In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him…"

 

[AnneElliot]

Our disagreement comes with the definition of who or what is the “church”. Your view is more of an organization rather than a body made up of individual believers. You are always waiting for direction from an organization rather than operating on what the bible has already revealed.

The apostle Paul is a perfect example of what I believe is the way christians should operate. God calls individuals to service and gives His Holy Spirit to facilitate their mission. It is the Holy Spirit that directs the individual to service.

Jericho,

What is the pillar and foundation of truth?

 

[jericho777]

Jericho,

What is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Hi Anne,
The foundation of truth resides in the believers the body of Christ the “church”. The church in of itself is not truth. Only God can be truth.