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Deconi
Guest
No apology is necessary for being vigorous and enthusiastic about Church matters.
That said we can wrestle for it and the winner gets to be right!
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That said we can wrestle for it and the winner gets to be right!
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Deconi
Guest
The final say is a Pope and none have ever used the term unparalled ambiguity…so I am free to disagree! In fact I’ve never seen it before regarding this issue.
Quite a lengthy treatment and a good effort, but Maritain concludes, in his opinion, that The Church is within each one of us…as we are created. I have found these thoughts prevalent in Protestant circles and at odds with Catholicism.
The dogma is much misunderstood, predominantly, by those who have not taken the time to examine it with Catholic lenses, since it is a Catholic dogma. It has to be held up against THE REST of what The Church claims, professes and teaches to grasp a full understanding of the claim. To isolate it on its own is where contextualised issues arise.
There are also those who try to explain a diluted view of it and cause confusion about whether you need to be Catholic to attain salvation. There should be none!
If The Church was unnecessary for our salvation, she would not have been spoken into existence by her Founder!
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Pitcharan
Guest
NOT MAY BE. It is available to all mankind no religions barred
This is the statement that is ambiguous purely from the language view point of how it is understood. The CC position as taught to us is this: there are many false teachings on salvation going around outside the CC mainly by heretic deserters. We are warned not to believe in a teaching other than what CC teaches (that is a teaching different from what CC teaches). It does not mean that all that is taught outside is wrong. Some eastern orthodox teachings are identical to CC
No one ever said so; why mention this now?it also does not mean Catholics are guaranteed salvation.
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twb1621
Guest
Why do you continue to ignore what I ask and the many verses I presented you?
I say nothing of you I haven’t said of myself so do not take it as an attact, but as an observation based on personal experience. As far as the “freedom” Christ purchased for you on the cross, I would be interested in knowing what you see that freedom as. And you being joeful to share God’s Word with others is something you had all along if you knew the Catholic Faith properly and shared His Word correctly, so that was a misconceived notion all along that you could not.
This is your quote;
*“There is definitely structure and authority in the NT but there is no elevated clergy. You all look and act more like Pharisees than servants of God. There are supposed to be overseers not rulers.”
This is my response (in part) repeated: “Your criticized Catholic Priests for their looks and actions. Show me were scripture shows God declares the Israelites “gone astray” because of their garments of worship and condemns the priests for wearing those garments. In your mentioning wrongful acts, lets acknowledge there have been corrupt in the Church at times over her life. That shouldn’t be a shock if we are familiar with scripture itself;”
“…people trembling and quivering in their presence”, I had a great deal of respect for the priests and religious and rightfully so but do not know of people being this fearful of them without being taught by their parents to have such a perspective… but I can not speak of the kind of relationship that existed between you and them or how you were raised to see them. I was raised in a very large parish in Philadelphia with thousands of parishioners and never found the priests or monsignor unapproachable. It seems you had a learned prospective of them but again I can not say. There are priests good in their devotions and some not so good just as any other minister, preacher, reverend or whatever.
My Christian brother, churches of other faiths most certainly are independent of the Catholic Universal Church if they preach and believe differently than the Catholic Faith. These churches are established by man and the teachings of man’s beliefs based on man’s opinions, not on true faith in the complete teachings of Christ as scripture itself attests must be. if a person is of a faith that is trimmed down or in opposition to the Church Jesus founded and as it has existed for these 2000 years, that person is obviously not “speaking the same thing”, nor “of the same mind” nor “of the same judgment”. He or she is not in unison with the teachings of the Catholic Universal Church. As I presented you before and as the Inspired Word of God proclaims and can not be altered;
1 Corinthians CH1; 6 As the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 So that nothing is wanting to you in any grace, waiting for the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 Who also will confirm you unto the end without crime, in the day of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful: by whom you are called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.
Matthew CH28; 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” (It is the Church Founded by Christ and it will never end until His return.)
Continued next post…
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twb1621
Guest
Obviously you didn’t read or comprehend that I told you this in a previous post. But if you think Jesus taught the 12 to preach one Gospel and Paul a separate Gospel not in unison, your sadly mistaken. Scripture is clear that Paul respected the 12 for who they were and met with the apostles so as to keep the Teachings of Christ united, especially considering the differences between teaching the Jews and the Gentiles. The apostles were teaching the Gospel before Paul ever became involved and in fact Paul as Saul was a persecutor of the Christians and was present at the martyrdom of Stephen. Do you not realize this?
Were did you get the idea that I think God has to work through anything let alone magic. I have provided you more proof that what you promote is wrong both regarding scripture and the Church. One cannot devote his or her self to selective verses and reject others so as to build a faith that suits them.
God Chose to work through His only Begotten Son who Chose to establish “a” Church through the apostles He chose all of which was to remain of one teaching and of which all were to once again; “speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment”.
All of these conditions are in scripture and have been provided to you. If you choose to ignore them, it is willful ignorance, not lack of awareness.
All of this is Biblical including the succession of the Apostles and I have proven this many times with many verses. If you devote yourself to the Inspired word of God it must be ALL His Word not part of His Word.
Yup.
Historical lineage of the Church not the people. Yes, God calls people to His Church and to His service but not to distort His word through individual teachings based on individual opinions separate of His Church or to lead others “astray” from His Church, His fold, His Body, His Bride.
You did not have to study the reformation to join a group that follows a different faith or one that goes on the belief in Sola Scriptura or “the Bible alone”. These are merely one of thousands that came about because of the reformation.
You see you just proved yourself wrong in your own beliefs. If it were Biblical Truth you would be Catholic as all these Biblical verses I presented you show, there is only one Church and it must be of only one spoken word, and mind and judgment. You are not and your Church obviously is not if it is not of the Catholic Faith. That stands to reason. Further still, those churches with all their independent belief systems born of the reformation over the last 500 years are not in agreement theologically with themselves but are all of whoever’s beliefs one adopts so your out of luck on the “Maybe the reason we agree in our theology is because it is simply biblical truth”, theory.
My Brother, I gave you more than ample proof both scripturally and from the Catechism of the Catholic Church proving you were wrong regarding scripture and what you could have done on behalf of your faith in service to God. Our (and your) obligation as Catholics in the covenant Jesus made with His Church is to know the fullness and True Teachings and live His teachings in humility and charity. You could have learned your faith and scripture, and been performing whatever ministry you chose to take part in including serving in such ways as here but you chose to abandon His Church (like I once did out of the same ignorance to my faith) and go on to learn and adopt something easier to accept and live with, taking it even further by promoting those distorted beliefs. In fact, perhaps it is God’s intention that you left the Church to go where you are, learn the truth in Catholicism and help some of those others you currently gather with who never knew the Catholic Church at all and need guidance. No one knows the mind of God. But it would be beneficial to you to go over all the verses presented you and then some including the CCC being ill-informed of the Faith. Otherwise, you are one who was offered more and whom more is expected.
Grace of God.
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inkaneer
Guest
If you want to see where healing is in the Catholic church go to any shrine as see the thousands of crutches and other medical devices put there by people who have been healed go to Fatima or Lourdes or any other shrine. In Catholicism to be considered an alleged healing miracle must be investigated by a panel of competent medical authorities most of whom hold positions of professors at medical schools. They must certify that after an exhaustive investigation of the fact that the resulting cure is indeed a miracle. There is not one protestant denomination who subjects their supposed miracles to such an exhaustive scrutiny. Instead, from them we get “my back was hurting, now its not, Praise the Lord”. Instead of miracles we get scams like Peter Popoff and the TV evangelists with their health and wealth gospel.
As to your question of, " How can the lesser (the church) define the greater (the Word of God)." I say I am not aware of any verse of scripture that says that. So I am interested in what makes you think the church is lesser than the word of God? Where is that recorded in scripture? I don’t find it. Instead I see where scripture claims that it is the church that is the pillar and foundation of truth. You will find that in your bible too. It is in 1Timothy 3:15. I do not find scripture making the same claim about itself. In fact I don’t find where scripture makes the claim that it is inspired by God. It was a bunch of bishops of the Catholic Church that did that. But I am no sola scripturist so I don’t pretend to know every verse in the Bible sof you would be so kind as to tell me which verse says that the church is lesser than the scriptures I would certainly appreciate it.
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Deconi
Guest
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twb1621
Guest
I tend at times to lean toward instinctively reacting like James and John but recall our Lord’s rebuting them.Tom, your succinct patience is a marvel to behold!
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itinerant1
Guest
Speaking from experience on CAF, Forum Moderators may not see things as you have described. One can get smacked down by a Moderator for just saying that what someone else has quoted in their post is nothing but political propaganda or government lies. It gives the impression that one is saying the other poster is merely spreading or repeating lies. (This is especially true if the moderator does not share the poster’s political views, such as if the poster thinks the Gulf Wars were unjust wars, but the Moderator thinks otherwise and will thus apply the forum rules more strictly. Moderators are human and so have their own indiosyncracies. Remember, I did not say that about Moderators, and if you tell anyone I said any of this this, I will call you a bald-faced liar.
)In sum, it’s better to stay on the safe side rather than risk having a thread shut down. Instead of saying, for instance, that what a poster has related is a lie, address the issue directly and show why the statement in question is false. This method makes for a much more informative debate and discussion, and does not run the risk of unneccessarily offending anyone. Catch my drift? Elsewhere than this forum it may be appropriate in some circumstance to call someone a liar. St. Jerome was notorious for the choice of language in his strong denunciations of heretics. Even St. Paul said of the Judaizers who insisted on circumcision, “Tell them I hope the knife slips.”
Ouch!!
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itinerant1
Guest
Yes, you did miss the posts in question made by Anne. Clearly, you have not followed this discussion as closely as you led everyone to believe when you entered the thread in defense of Anne.This is too loaded, Iti. My agreement with the Pope does not mean I disagree with Anne as a consequence because I have only seen that she agrees with him also!
Some of the multiple documents she cited INCLUDE the ‘unseen’ exceptions to the rule. I must have missed where she explicitly denied The Church’s illumination of baptism of desire and invincible ignorance as means of salvation. In fact, as I’ve mentioned, the documents cited included them, expressly and implicitly.
It cannot be misleading to cite / quote documents that support the various dogmas of The Church. How can it be? Has the dogma changed? Has someone used Papal Authority to unlock it or remove it?
The underlying context of the latter Fathers that make address of those documents is, first and foremost, acceptance at face value that it is true! You can see that by understanding their attempts of reformulating the dogma, instead of stating that it is confined to a time and place in history or, God forbid, that it is erroneous or ambiguous.
On the subject of Cornelius as a pagan reckoned “upright and God-fearing”…I can exegete that passage as… that no pagan can be ‘God-fearing’ unless by his own instincts he is ‘aware’ there is a God! or there must be a Supreme Presence beyond all he sees and experience in his life. (I can be wrong there of course)
It is similar to Abram who was a Gentile when he was reckoned righteous and God calls him. In fact ‘the promise’ was made him whilst still an uncircumcised Gentile.
I suggest you get up to speed on the history of this discussion before you make any more critiques, of which you are not, by your own admission, properly informed to make.
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Pitcharan
Guest
I see you do this regularly Deconi. You conveniently evaded what Tom had posted earlier and now when he reminds you saying that you did not read or understand his post, you use a sweet compliment to once again evade a straight forward response. That’s why I called you an ARTFUL DODGERTom, your succinct patience is a marvel to behold!
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Pitcharan
Guest
You mean Moderators could be Terminators? Well that’s a valid reason to be cautious in the language we use.Speaking from experience on CAF, Forum Moderators may not see things as you have described. One can get smacked down by a Moderator for just saying that what someone else has quoted in their post is nothing but political propaganda or government lies. It gives the impression that one is saying the other poster is merely spreading or repeating lies. (This is especially true if the moderator does not share the poster’s political views, such as if the poster thinks the Gulf Wars were unjust wars, but the Moderator thinks otherwise and will thus apply the forum rules more strictly. Moderators are human and so have their own indiosyncracies. Remember, I did not say that about Moderators, and if you tell anyone I said any of this this, I will call you a bald-faced liar.
In sum, it’s better to stay on the safe side rather than risk having a thread shut down.
But this latter reason you just gave, for better effect (results), sounds more attractive to me.Instead of saying, for instance, that what a poster has related is a lie, address the issue directly and show why the statement in question is false. This method makes for a much more informative debate and discussion, and does not run the risk of unneccessarily offending anyone. Catch my drift? Elsewhere than this forum it may be appropriate in some circumstance to call someone a liar. St. Jerome was notorious for the choice of language in his strong denunciations of heretics. Even St. Paul said of the Judaizers who insisted on circumcision, “Tell them I hope the knife slips.”
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Pitcharan,
Do you think Dickens would have wanted you to use one of his more famous characters so shamelessly?
How about ‘Artless Dodger’…
God bless
Do you think Dickens would have wanted you to use one of his more famous characters so shamelessly?
How about ‘Artless Dodger’…God bless
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Pitcharan
Guest
Did you mean “Shameless Dodger”?Hi, Pitcharan,
Do you think Dickens would have wanted you to use one of his more famous characters so shamelessly?
God bless
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Pitcharan,
Do you think the Moderator looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger …
God bless
Do you think the Moderator looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger …
God bless
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twb1621
Guest
In all fairness, I thought I should clear Deconi’s name on this as he was only commenting on posts I wrote to Jericho777. The post he quoted was not addressed to him. easily misunderstood…
Peace,
Tom
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twb1621
Guest
It seems we’re run aground at low tide here… I know! Group Hug! :grouphug:Hi, Pitcharan,
Do you think the Moderator looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger …
God bless
I
itinerant1
Guest
http://www.bangitout.com/uploads/82the-terminator.jpgHi, Pitcharan,
Do you think the Moderator looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger …
God bless
Did somebody say Moderator? Where’s your salvation now, mortal man?
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tqualey
Guest
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itinerant1
Guest
I just finished reading the following article at Catholic Education Resource Center. This article is one of the best I have come across because, for one reason, it discusses “No salvation outside the Church” in its historical context over the centuries.
So, in the spirit of “group hug”, I would like to “share” with all of you what Fr. Peter Stravinskas has to say: Can Outsiders Be Insiders?
So, in the spirit of “group hug”, I would like to “share” with all of you what Fr. Peter Stravinskas has to say: Can Outsiders Be Insiders?
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