No Salvation Outside The Church?

[mo3]

I only believe what the Holy Spirit wanted written down was revealed in scripture.

Obviously. So you agree that not “everything” was written down?
So you agree that the “interpretation” of scripture is not written down?

“We are told to hold fast to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. Our faith was completely delivered to us.”

Please quote chapter & verse that says “our faith was completely delivered to us” in writing?

Our faith is perfectly delivered to us in scripture.

This is false. Please quote chapter & verse that says “our faith is perfectly delivered to us in scripture”?

The Holy Spirit is sent to us to be our teacher John 14:26 to reveal God’s will for us in light of scripture. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict the written word.

This is true but it does not say the Holy Spirit is the “only” teacher. What about the apostles that didn’t write anything like Thomas, Phillip, etc.?

Where do we find the foundation of truth?

God bless.

 

[AnneElliot]

A question I posed before:

If the CCC in paragraph 841 states that God’s plan of Salvation includes muslims, then how can it not include non-Catholic Christians?

“The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess” Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 26; Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/VIENNE.HTM
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne
[25]. It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place, in the hearing of both Christians and Saracens and there make public declarations in his honour. There is a place, moreover, where once was buried a certain Saracen whom other Saracens venerate as a saint. A great number of Saracens flock there quite openly from far and near. This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated any further without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on catholic princes, one and all, who hold sovereignty over the said Saracens and in whose territory these practices occur, and we lay on them a pressing obligation under the divine judgment that, as true Catholics and zealous for the Christian faith, they give consideration to the disgrace heaped on both them and other Christians. They are to remove this offence altogether from their territories and take care that their subjects remove it, so that they may thereby attain the reward of eternal happiness. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet. They shall also forbid anyone in their dominions to attempt in future the said pilgrimage or in any way give countenance to it. Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/VIENNE.HTM

ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel
“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the catholic faith.”
ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm

 

[inkaneer]

A question I posed before:

If the CCC in paragraph 841 states that God’s plan of Salvation includes muslims, then how can it not include non-Catholic Christians?

It does but as I said before God established the Church as the normative means of salvation. Everyone will be judged but in His mercy God will apply different standards to those judged based on their particular situation. But no one should rely on “invinceable ignorance” as a basis for salvation because if one is wrong the downside is eternal damnation.

 

[inkaneer]

David - Look at my post 122. It is clear that unless Luther repented, returned to the CC, and received the sacrament of penance, the Church would say he did NOT achieve salvation. As for as I know, he never did.

It seems that you do not believe that being in full communion with the CC is necessary for salvation (except for those who are ignorant of the CC or of God). Luther was clearly aware of the CC and rejected her teachings - heresy. You are twisting the CCC’s clear teaching on this

Let’s not judge Luther’s eternal disposition. Luther was a very troubled man having been the victim of parental abuse all his young life. We know this from Luther’s own writings. His solution to this misuse of authority was to run away from his family and join the Augustinians. However, there he was subject to the discipline of the order as well as the church. Again Luther ran. The doctrine of sola scriptura is directly related to Luther’s problems with authority outside of himself. With sola scriptura it was Luther who was in authority. He said what scripture meant not the church. But soon others would come along and would also apply their interpretations which differed from those of Luther and Luther would rail at these upstarts because they dared to defy him.

A very troubled man to be sure.

 

[cathdoki]

“The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess” Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 26; Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/VIENNE.HTM
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne
[25]. It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place, in the hearing of both Christians and Saracens and there make public declarations in his honour. There is a place, moreover, where once was buried a certain Saracen whom other Saracens venerate as a saint. A great number of Saracens flock there quite openly from far and near. This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated any further without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on catholic princes, one and all, who hold sovereignty over the said Saracens and in whose territory these practices occur, and we lay on them a pressing obligation under the divine judgment that, as true Catholics and zealous for the Christian faith, they give consideration to the disgrace heaped on both them and other Christians. They are to remove this offence altogether from their territories and take care that their subjects remove it, so that they may thereby attain the reward of eternal happiness. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet. They shall also forbid anyone in their dominions to attempt in future the said pilgrimage or in any way give countenance to it. Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/VIENNE.HTM

ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel
“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the catholic faith.”
ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm

And?

 

[AnneElliot]

And?

Just because something is written in the CCC does not grant it authority, it must have declaration outside of the Catechism (as (then) Cardinal Ratzinger outlines in the quote I provided above). Catechisms can, and often are, changed/modified/updated.

Though the CCC points to Vatican II’s* Lumen Gentium *#16, upon reading LG #16 you would see it’s talking about the Church duty to evangelize to “procure the salvation of [the muslims]”.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[cathdoki]

Just because something is written in the CCC does not grant it authority, it must have declaration outside of the Catechism (as (then) Cardinal Ratzinger outlines in the quote I provided above). Catechisms can, and often are, changed/modified/updated.

Though the CCC points to Vatican II’s* Lumen Gentium *#16, upon reading LG #16 you would see it’s talking about the Church duty to evangelize to “procure the salvation of [the muslims]”.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

I agree that muslims as is are not “saved”. But when it comes to other Christians it’s different story. And that does have declaration outside of the CCC.

 

[AnneElliot]

I agree that muslims as is are not “saved”. But when it comes to other Christians it’s different story. And that does have declaration outside of the CCC.

Which you won’t provide?

It would be false ecumenism to think that other Christians don’t need to convert to the Catholic Church to find salvation.

 

[dstclair3]

Jesus says"I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." I have known Non Catholic Christians who are so passionately in love and devoted to Christ and their life works reflect this. I know I will see them in paradise.

 

[AnneElliot]

Jesus says"I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." I have known Non Catholic Christians who are so passionately in love and devoted to Christ and their life works reflect this. I know I will see them in paradise.

That is not what the Church teaches.

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

“In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.”
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9nostis.htm

etc., etc., etc.

 

[mo3]

That is not what the Church teaches.

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

This document does not say anyone outside the boundaries of the Catholic Church cannot be saved. The CCC does not say this either.

“In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.”
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9nostis.htm

This is a Papal encyclical and is not dogmatic teaching.

God bless.

 

[gkoomen]

To whom much is given, much is required. The more opportunity a person has to learn and seek out the truth, the more responsible that person becomes for what they do in response to it. For Muslims, for other Christians, the way is still very narrow. I wouldn’t be taking any chances. There are any number of books available to help. I would recommend, “Where is That in the Bible”, by Scott Hahn as a starter. But don’t make the mistake of thinking that anyone, Muslim or Christian, can just coast carelessly through life without truly seeking God and His truth, and sail right on into Heaven - just isn’t going to happen, no matter how long you argue!

 

[cathdoki]

That is not what the Church teaches.

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

“In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.”
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9nostis.htm

etc., etc., etc.

What about the Orthodox?

 

[tominator2]

That is not what the Church teaches.

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
QUOTE]

Absolutely the Church is necessary for salvation, for to be outside the Church is to be “unsaved.” However, this statement still does not speak about those who, through invincible ignorance, may not be included in the visible Church but still may experience God’s salvation via God’s merciful judgement.

The problem is, one can not count on God’s mercy to outweigh His justice. To do so is presumptuous. Objectively, we must belong to His Church to gain the salvation He freely gives. If one is convinced of this truth and refuses, that is the “unsalvation” mentioned in your quotation. Many who are not visible members of the Church would not necesssarily fall in that category.

The other poster may “know” he will see this or that non-Catholic in heaven. This is grace-filled positive thinking, but God may not agree. Only He knows.

Tominator2

 

[cathdoki]

Only He knows.

Tominator2

Now that was profound!!! Many Catholics are Catholic in name only. There are many non-Catholics that worship God in true love. To say they will not be saved is to be acting as God. The CC does not profess to do so.

 

[mo3]

so the phrase “no salvation outside the church” isn’t clear enough? It means that there really is salvation outside the church? That doesn’t make sense. Are the teachings of the church straightforward, or do they not mean what they say?

Maybe you are looking for a perfect “one liner.” This statement is not a “one liner.” There is a paragraph which give the context of the meaning.

James 2:24 - See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This verse must be “interpreted” within the context of James, the entire Bible, and the teachings of the Church.

Sacred Scripture is not a collection of “one liners.” Yes there are some “one liners” but most teachings are understood in context.

Can anyone explain the “Trinity” with a one liner?

Can anyone explain the teachings of Jesus Christ with a “one liner”?

God bless.

 

[gkoomen]

There is no guarantee that all Catholics will go to heaven. Even Dante saw several Popes in his 'Inferno"! There are many in the Church carelessly following the “broad way”. I’m afraid there is no band aid way. You can’t go forward in a ‘crusade’, say a prayer, never experience a change of life or heart, and expect to thus have your ticket and go to heaven Jesus never taught that. And you can’t get ‘done’ as a baby by a Priest, never appropriate what you received - never act on it, and expect that to get you there either. Neither of these has ever really believed, or their actions would show it - that’s what James was writing about. Faith without works is dead, because true faith will affect the life of the one who has it.

 

[AnneElliot]

This document does not say anyone outside the boundaries of the Catholic Church cannot be saved. The CCC does not say this either.

Oh, you’re looking for this then:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (Denzinger 714)

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” Fourth Lateran Council (Denzinger 430)

This is a Papal encyclical and is not dogmatic teaching.

It echoes the constant teaching of the Church that there is no salvation outside the Church. The two statements above are dogmatic/infallible (Ex Cathedra and an Ecumenical Council, respectively).

What about the Orthodox?

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Denzinger 468)

Refer also to above statement from Pope Eugene IV… "so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

 

[AnneElliot]

AnneElliot;6930438:

That is not what the Church teaches.

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Absolutely the Church is necessary for salvation, for to be outside the Church is to be “unsaved.” However, this statement still does not speak about those who, through invincible ignorance, may not be included in the visible Church but still may experience God’s salvation via God’s merciful judgement.

Such ‘invincibly ignorant’ persons would be brought to the Truth (and the Church), by miraculous means if necessary in order to procure their salvation. It has happened in the past (Saints have raised the dead solely in order to baptize them, Saints have bilocated to preach the Gospel to natives, etc.).

Saint Thomas Aquinas agrees:
St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is."

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: Objection- “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith.* St. Thomas replies- It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance.* In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him…"

St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. II, 28, Q. 1, A. 4, ad 4: “If a man born among barbarian nations, does what he can, God Himself will show him what is necessary for salvation, either by inspiration or sending a teacher to him.”

 

[inkaneer]

Jesus says"I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." I have known Non Catholic Christians who are so passionately in love and devoted to Christ and their life works reflect this. I know I will see them in paradise.

How do you know? Maybe it is just wishful thinking on your part. The fact is that you really don’t know. I knew people who were passionate in their love of the Lord until personal tragedy struck them and they now curse God unceasingly. Just goes to show that you really never know even when you think you do.