No Salvation Outside The Church?

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How do you know? Maybe it is just wishful thinking on your part. The fact is that you really don’t know. I knew people who were passionate in their love of the Lord until personal tragedy struck them and they now curse God unceasingly. Just goes to show that you really never know even when you think you do.
As Catholics we have the Euchrist (as do the Orthodox) and that is the main separation from the non-Catholic Christians. To question the validity of non-Catholic Christians being firmly in love with Jesus is silly. They know how to love and many of them live very holy lives. Just like many Catholics do. By the same token there are many Catholics that are Catholic in name only. They say they believe in Jesus and His saving power, but are basically Chrieasters (ya know, Mass on Christmas and Easter only). Who is living the Gospel more closely?
 
As Catholics we have the Euchrist (as do the Orthodox) and that is the main separation from the non-Catholic Christians. To question the validity of non-Catholic Christians being firmly in love with Jesus is silly. They know how to love and many of them live very holy lives. Just like many Catholics do. By the same token there are many Catholics that are Catholic in name only. They say they believe in Jesus and His saving power, but are basically Chrieasters (ya know, Mass on Christmas and Easter only). Who is living the Gospel more closely?
The Dogma, “No Salvation Outside the Church” does not guarantee Catholics heaven. A Catholic still must die in a state of grace to enter into heaven.

Since there is no remission of sin outside of the Catholic Church, how is a Protestant (or any non-Catholic) saved? Or do you argue that God has 2 standards? One for Catholics (members of His Church), and another for non-Catholics?
 
the dogma, “no salvation outside the church” does not guarantee catholics heaven. A catholic still must die in a state of grace to enter into heaven.

Since there is no remission of sin outside of the catholic church, how is a protestant (or any non-catholic) saved? Or do you argue that god has 2 standards? One for catholics (members of his church), and another for non-catholics?
so, all protestants go to hell?
 
This bean-counting is always amusing to me. Jesus didn’t tell us to be statisticians. He just said “strive to enter”.
 
so, all protestants go to hell?
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (Denzinger 714)
 
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (Denzinger 714)
So, all protestants go to hell. What about the Orthodox? The Church with little change or new doctrine for well over a thousand years?
 
Salvation outside the Church

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as “the universal sacrament of salvation” (CCC 774–776), and states: “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as “baptism of blood” or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
 
So, all protestants go to hell. What about the Orthodox? The Church with little change or new doctrine for well over a thousand years?
The Orthodox are in the same boat as the Protestants. They reject the Papacy. They are not in union with the Catholic Church.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Denzinger 468)

Pope St. Pius X:
“Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation, to follow the right road of reason, to feed on the truth, to obtain peace and even happiness in this life.” Iucunda Sane, #9
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10greg.htm
 
From Fr. Frederick William Faber’s The Precious Blood, p. 74
“Let us tease ourselves with one more imaginary case, and then we will have done. To many persons the great burden of life is the secret of predestination; and most men have at times felt the uncertainty of salvation as a weight upon their spirits. To a good man, whatever increases this uncertainty is a grave misfortune. Without a private revelation, no one can at any time say absolutely that he is in a state of grace, not even although he may just have received absolution in the best dispositions in his power. Nevertheless he feels a moral certainty about it, which for all practical purposes is as good as an assurance. We are not then always absolutely certain that the Precious Blood has been applied to our souls in absolution. But whence is it that we derive that moral certainty which is our consolation and our rest? From the fact that, when properly received, the operation of the Precious Blood is infallible. What an unhappiness it would be, if this were not so ! The power of the Blood of Jesus is never doubtful, its work never incomplete. Moreover God has gathered up its virtue in a very special way into certain Sacraments. He has made its application almost visible. He has tied its miracles as it were to time, and place, and matter, and form, so as to bring us as near to a certainty of our being in a state of grace as is compatible with His laws and our own best interests. If we could be no more sure that we had validly received absolution in confession, than we can be sure we have ever madean act of perfect contrition, we should be in a sad plight, and go through our spiritual exercises and our inward trials in a very downcast and melancholy way. Our state would be, at least in that one respect, something like the state of those outside the Church, who are not living members of Christ, nor partakers in His saving jurisdiction in the Sacrament of penance. If the Precious Blood had been shed, and yet we had no priesthood, no Sacraments, no jurisdiction, no sacramentals, no mystical life of the visible unity of the Church,—life, so it seems, would be almost intolerable. This is the condition of those outside the Church ; and certainly as we grow older, as our experience widens, as our knowledge of ourselves deepens, as our acquaintance with mankind increases, the less hopeful do our ideas become regarding the salvation of those outside the Roman Church. We make the most we can of the uncovenanted mercies of God, of the invisible soul of the Church, of the doctrine of invincible ignorance, of the easiness of making acts of contrition, and of the visible moral goodness among men; and yet what are these but straws in our own estimation, if our own chances of salvation had to lean their weight upon them ? They wear out, or they break down. They are fearfully counterweighted by other considerations. We have to draw on our imaginations in order to fill up the picture. They are but theories at best, theories unhelpful except to console those who are forward to be deceived for the sake of those they love, theories often very fatal by keeping our charity in check, and interfering with that restlessness of converting love in season and out of season, and that impetuous agony of prayer, upon which God may have made the salvation of our friends depend. Alas! the more familiar we ourselves become with the operations of grace, the further we advance into the spiritual life, the more we meditate on the character of God, and taste in contemplation the savour of His holiness, the more to our eyes does grace magnify itself inside the Church, and the more dense and forlorn becomes the darkness which is spread over those outside. Yet, not indeed to this state, God forbid ! but to a painful partial resemblance of it should we be brought, if God’s tender considerate love had not as it were localized the Precious Blood in His stupendous Sacraments. Truly the Sacraments are an invention of love, yet are they not also as truly a necessity of our salvation, not only as applying the Precious Blood to our souls, but as enabling faith to ascertain its application? Would not the divine assurance of our salvation be a very heaven begun on earth ? Yet the Sacraments are the nearest approach to such a sweet assurance as the love of our Heavenly Father saw to be expedient for the multitude of His children. The Precious Blood, then, is the greatest, the most undeniable of our necessities. There is no true life without it.”
 
The Orthodox are in the same boat as the Protestants. They reject the Papacy. They are not in union with the Catholic Church.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Denzinger 468)

Pope St. Pius X:
“Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation, to follow the right road of reason, to feed on the truth, to obtain peace and even happiness in this life.” Iucunda Sane, #9
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10greg.htm
Wrong.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

I think that falls under ignorant innocence. BTW…a Catholic can receive the Eucharist from an Orthodox Church provided he/she has no Catholic Church available and has asked the Orthodox priest. I think that says something about the Orthodox Church in Catholic eyes.

Now, do you really think that if a protestant really believed the Catholic Church was correct would refuse to join it? Do you think that being brought up with a certain doctrine from another Christian church would not fall under invincible ignorance? If you do then you know the mind of God. The Phrarises thought they knew the mind of God. They were into the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.

How can you possibly think that there aren’t devout Christians that are not Catholic who will be in heaven?
 
I quoted the Popes! Your beef is with them.

FYI, if you, as a Catholic, asked an Orthodox priest to receive the Holy Eucharist, they would say ‘No’. Their opinion of Catholics is not so nice. Despite the fact that the Orthodox have a valid priesthood, the fact remains that they are separated from the Roman Catholic Church. They do not submit to the Holy Father. They reject him.
 
I quoted the Popes! Your beef is with them.

FYI, if you, as a Catholic, asked an Orthodox priest to receive the Holy Eucharist, they would say ‘No’. Their opinion of Catholics is not so nice. Despite the fact that the Orthodox have a valid priesthood, the fact remains that they are separated from the Roman Catholic Church. They do not submit to the Holy Father. They reject him.
You didn’t acknowledge my highlighted text. You’ve conveniently ignored a few things.

So, all protestants and orthodox go to hell?
 
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

I think that falls under ignorant innocence. BTW…a Catholic can receive the Eucharist from an Orthodox Church provided he/she has no Catholic Church available and has asked the Orthodox priest. I think that says something about the Orthodox Church in Catholic eyes.

Now, do you really think that if a protestant really believed the Catholic Church was correct would refuse to join it? Do you think that being brought up with a certain doctrine from another Christian church would not fall under invincible ignorance? If you do then you know the mind of God. The Phrarises thought they knew the mind of God. They were into the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.

How can you possibly think that there aren’t devout Christians that are not Catholic who will be in heaven?
You mean “*invincible *ignorance”.

Ignorance will not save anyone. It can excuse them from the sin of infidelity as Pope Pius IX says… but their other sins, which they are culpable for (i.e., sins against the natural law) cannot be forgiven without the Church.

“We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins…” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Denzinger 468)
 
You didn’t acknowledge my highlighted text. You’ve conveniently ignored a few things.

So, all protestants and orthodox go to hell?
I responded in a separate post.

If they do not convert before their death, then yes, anyone who is not Catholic will go to hell.
 
You mean “*invincible *ignorance”.

Ignorance will not save anyone. It can excuse them from the sin of infidelity as Pope Pius IX says… but their other sins, which they are culpable for (i.e., sins against the natural law) cannot be forgiven without the Church.

“We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins…” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Denzinger 468)
Nope. “Innocent” is directly quoted from a Catholic website.
 
Nope. “Innocent” is directly quoted from a Catholic website.
Which one?

I’ve referenced when I’ve taken things from other sites so that you can see for yourself. Give credit where credit is due.
 
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