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cathdoki
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Finally you are catching on!!! Salvation is only in Jesus Christ. Not a particular Church.
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AnneElliot
Guest
Please, for your own sake, take a break from this thread.
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guanophore
Guest
I think there may be other things that do matter, and I think that opportunity is also available to those who have never even heard of Christ, so cannot be devout followers of Christ.
I also think that Anne has a valid point. All who are saved are done so through the Catholic Church, whether they recognize it or not, and whether they are formal or visible members of her or not. Jesus You have thrown out anything that you disagree with. It’s only founded ONE CHURCH, and all who are members of Him are members of His One Church. So, from that perspective, it is quite right and proper to say that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This is a doctrine of the faith, and one which we should all support. I think where we are getting bogged down with Anne is that she believes that all these people need to be “visible” members of the “visible” Church, and that is not the case.
We all agree that Abraham was saved, and he was not a visible member of the Roman Catholic Church. There are also others who are saved because they meet the “qualifications” like Abraham did.
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AnneElliot
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Where did I say all these people need to be “visible members” of the Church? I said the Church is visible.
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inkaneer
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But the APostles did not resort to scripture. They claimed a direct revelation from the Holy Spirit when they said in Acts 15:28, “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:” [Acts 15:28]. Oddly enough it was the Judiacizers who were using the scriptures. Now if that is not a further judgement against sola scriptura and private interpretation of scripture then I don’t know what is.
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cathdoki
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Now, what you are saying I agree with fully .
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guanophore
Guest
It seems like you agree, then that the method of salvation has not changed. Although we recognize that God can save whoever He wants, however He likes, he saves us by grace, through faith.
God is not constrained by the sacraments, as your own quotes of official documents attest. Although baptism is the normative means, He can save the ungodly without a visible baptism.
Exactly, but you see that the words are “Holy Roman Church”. the Church is not “Roman”. The Latin Rite is only one of 23 Rites in unity with the Successor of Peter. When we read the Papal and Concilar documents, we take into account that the writer(s) are coming from their own perspective.
Your perspective, unlike theirs, is not protected by the gift of infallibility.
Your opinion is that people who are not visible members of the Roman Catholic Church cannot be saved. From our perspective, the documents don’t mean what you think they mean. We believe that all members of the Eastern Rites can be saved without “converting” to the Latin way of practicing the faith.
The Church affirms our perspective, but she does not affirm yours.
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AnneElliot
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WHERE did I say this?
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cathdoki
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Repeatedly.
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guanophore
Guest
There is no distinction here, cathdoki. Jesus cannot be separated from His One Body, the Church. He only founded One Church. There are no valid “particular churches” other than the one He founded.
This is why the Holy Father refers to the gatherings of our separated brethren as “ecclesial communities”. they lack the marks of the true Church.
When people are united to the Head, they are, by definition, united to the Body. there is only one Body, which subsists in the Catholic Church. That is why there is no salvation outside of her.
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cathdoki
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I still agree with what you are saying. Perhaps my poor choice of wording. But we both agree that protestants and orthodox can be in heaven.
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guanophore
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You said you make no distinction between the two, and that people who are not visibly Catholic have no recourse to forgiveness of sins.
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AnneElliot
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There’s a handy search feature on the site… you can type in the phrase you are looking for, namely, “visible member” and my username, “AnneElliot” and it will show you all the posts where such a phrase is found. You’ll notice, NONE of my posts that appear have those two words joined side by side until this accusation surfaced.
I never said that people who are not visibly Catholic have no recourse to forgiveness of sins.
I said there is no remission of sin outside of the Church.
I said the Church is visible.
As I said before:
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cathdoki
Guest
***I’m saying, everyone who is saved is a member of the Catholic Church. They belong to the Church, they submit to the Pope and believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches.
This is what the Church teaches, as I’ve demonstrated previously with excerpts from Popes and Councils, etc.***
Oh well, you put more trust in men than in Jesus.
This is what the Church teaches, as I’ve demonstrated previously with excerpts from Popes and Councils, etc.***
Oh well, you put more trust in men than in Jesus.
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AnneElliot
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I put my trust in the authority given by Jesus Christ to St. Peter and his successors.
Because such trust is, ultimately, trust in the Lord and His words.
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cathdoki
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Well, then you should probably read some of what Cardinal Ratzinger had to say regarding non-Catholics. You might want to get a copy of the koran and kiss it from time to time.I put my trust in the authority given by Jesus Christ to St. Peter and his successors.
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cathdoki
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Oh, you may also want to invite all the religions of world to your house and pray with them. Just make sure you take down the crucifix from the rooms that non-Christians and pagans stay in so as not to insult them.I put my trust in the authority given by Jesus Christ to St. Peter and his successors.
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guanophore
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***I’m saying, everyone who is saved is a member of the Catholic Church. They belong to the Church, they submit to the Pope and believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches.
This is what the Church teaches, as I’ve demonstrated previously with excerpts from Popes and Councils, etc.***
I think the element of “submit to the Pope” is problemantic, especially for those who have had valid baptism but don;'t know about the Pope, or more often, are misinformed.
This is what the Church teaches, as I’ve demonstrated previously with excerpts from Popes and Councils, etc.***
I dont’ think so. Jesus identifies Himself completely with His Body, the Church. The Church is not comprised of only “men”, but has divine elements as well.
I think the element of “submit to the Pope” is problemantic, especially for those who have had valid baptism but don;'t know about the Pope, or more often, are misinformed.
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guanophore
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Perhaps you will be kind enough to distinguish how you see that they are different?
This is another strawman, Anne. We are all in agreeement that the Church is visible. The problem is that you conflate the visible with the invisible. Abraham is saved, but he was never a member of the visible Church. therefore, people outside the boundaries of the visible Church can, and are, saved through that Church.
As I said before:
We all agree on this point.
Yes, you have said this, and I am sure you believe that is what the Church teaches.
But the fact is, this is an addition of your own that is not supported by the facts. You have even demostrated this yourself in the case of Abraham, and admitted that different circumstances apply to him. In the same way, different circumstances apply to all those who are saved and are outside the visible boundaries of the Church.
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Emerite
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So, in essence, Anne Elliott is stating that the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict), of the Interdicasterial Commission for the Catechism of the Catholic Church is incorrect in stating the following:
“This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
This Catechism has the imprimi potest, which means that it is a declaration by a major superior of a Roman Catholic religious institute that a book on questions of religion or morals written by a member of the institute may be printed. I would think this is about the equivalent to an imprimatur.
Maybe our Ms. Elliott needs to notify the pontiff that we’re all getting incorrect information from his Catechism.
Also, concerning baptism of desire, this same Catechism, at page 321, No. 1260, states,
“‘Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.’ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”
“This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
This Catechism has the imprimi potest, which means that it is a declaration by a major superior of a Roman Catholic religious institute that a book on questions of religion or morals written by a member of the institute may be printed. I would think this is about the equivalent to an imprimatur.
Maybe our Ms. Elliott needs to notify the pontiff that we’re all getting incorrect information from his Catechism.
Also, concerning baptism of desire, this same Catechism, at page 321, No. 1260, states,
“‘Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.’ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”
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