No Salvation Outside The Church?

[guanophore]

So, in essence, Anne Elliott is stating that the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict), of the Interdicasterial Commission for the Catechism of the Catholic Church is incorrect in stating the following:

“This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

This Catechism has the imprimi potest, which means that it is a declaration by a major superior of a Roman Catholic religious institute that a book on questions of religion or morals written by a member of the institute may be printed. I would think this is about the equivalent to an imprimatur.

Maybe our Ms. Elliott needs to notify the pontiff that we’re all getting incorrect information from his Catechism.

Also, concerning baptism of desire, this same Catechism, at page 321, No. 1260, states,

“‘Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.’ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”

No, I don’t think she has as much of an issue with these passages as she does the possiblity of being saved as a Protestant. It is assumed that Protestants hear and embrace the gospel, and it is her contention that God draws everyone into the Catholic faith, and that they should study there way here. By “here” I mean ROMAN Cathlocism. I don’t think she believes that God’s grace will draw someone into a non Latin Rite.

 

[twb1621]

Here is my short answer to your post. When churches are mentioned in the NT they are in reference to location and deed see Rev 2. They were only bound by their love for Christ. Even in 3 John1:9-10 there was a bad leader who refused the true fellowship. How come no one was sent from the head church to remove him?

PS your posts are not long winded but insightful.

Sorry for the late reply but I had problems logging into CAF… And thank you for your understanding.

I urge you to once again refer to those scriptural verses I supplied before, most especially;

Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

1 Corinthians CH1;10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

Do you truly see room for independent opinions in the teachings of Christ from the established Church as acceptable Here? In all honesty if you do you are fabricating it to support what you do not wish to accept. The establishment of the hierarchy and a single organized Church possessing one faith speaking the same thing with no schisms, perfect in the same mind, is not reflected in the numbers of Christian divisions that exist nor is believing the existence of independent thought anything but opposition to Scripture itself. Of course Bishops had authority over their own geographic regions but they did not have authority to surpass the authority entrusted to them by the Church and John’s message well supports this. In referring to your verse from John, do you know that no action was ever taken? Or do you know why no action was taken or what the seriousness of the underlying problems were that brought about the issues spoken of?

In the verse you referenced, it is evident Diotrephes abused his position but it is not evident what was at the bottom of his abusiveness other than a prideful ego. Nothing in history clarifies or attests to how serious his actions were at that time.

“In the Third Epistle Diotrephes is blamed for misuse of the position of pre-eminence which he enjoyed in the community. The presbyter will reprimand him on his arrival (III John, 9, 10). But the expression, “who loveth to have the pre-eminence among them” (ho philoproteuon, not used elsewhere), does not warrant the conclusion that Diotrephes had usurped his position of authority. Nor can any solid grounds be found for the conjecture that the brethren, who went out “for his name” and were kindly received by Gaius (III John, 3, 8) were travelling apostles or even charismatical teachers, and were therefore dismissed as suspicious “pneumatikoi” by the “monarchical bishop” Diotrephes.” Source: New Advent Encyclopedia

John assured that if he went there he would be attentive to the problem with Diotrephes which shows he maintained an authoritative position and that no one can credibly deny. Now question also how Diotrephes became a bishop in the first place. The only way a person was instilled into that position was through election by the authorized Bishops of the Church. History does not offer any certain knowledge of him. Second, Jesus had Judas among His chosen Apostles and Jesus did not reject him. You can say Judas fit into the plan of God but you can’t say Diotrephes didn’t in some way. This verse does not disprove or devalue anything when it comes to the establishment of the one Church of Christ’s teachings. But let me offer you scriptural support for the establishment and hierarchy of His Church. Let’s look at the following;

***“But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” ***
Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mat. Ch 16. 15-19)

“…. Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.”** (Mat. Ch 24. 11-13)**

Matthew CH28; 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

Here is my short answer to your post. …

continued previous post;

“…Keep watch over yourselves (the chosen teachers) and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them. So be vigilant and remember that for three years, night and day, I unceasingly admonished each of you with tears. And now I commend you to God and to that gracious word of his that can build you up and give you the inheritance among all who are consecrated. I have never wanted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. You know well that these very hands have served my needs and my companions. In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’" (Acts Ch 20. 28-35)

”21 After they had proclaimed the good news to that city and made a considerable number of disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch. 22 They strengthened the spirits of the disciples and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying, “It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.” 23 They appointed presbyters 5 for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.” (Acts Ch 14. 21-23)

1 “…After this the Lord appointed seventy (-two) 2 others whom he sent ahead of him in pairs to every town and place he intended to visit. 2 He said to them, "The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few; so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest. 3 Go on your way; behold, I am sending you like lambs among wolves. 4 3 Carry no money bag, no sack, no sandals; and greet no one along the way. 5 Into whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this household.’ 4 6 If a peaceful person 5 lives there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you.” (Luke Ch 10. 01-06)

23 “They appointed presbyters 5 for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.” (ACTS CH 14: 23)

Continued next post

 

[twb1621]

Here is my short answer to your post. …

continued previous post;

“For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And therefore he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 Neither doth any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was. 5 So Christ also did not glorify himself, that he might be made a high priest: but he that said unto him: Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, with a strong cry and tears, offering up prayers and supplications to him that was able to save him from death, was heard for his reverence. 8 And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered. 9 And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation: 10 Called by God a high priest, according to the order of Melchisedech.” (Hebrews CH5)

**5 “For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, 6 on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious. 7 For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, 9 holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.” (TITUS CH 01: 5-9)

24 “whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. 26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 5 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; 6 second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.” (1 Corinthians CH 12; 2428)

**Comparing verses from the New Testament to Old Testament and Compare the symbol of the keys with that in the following: **

**Old Testament; “In that day I will call my servant Eli’akim the son of Hilki’ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. (Isaiah 22:20-22) **

Note: the power of `loosing and binding’ in heaven and on earth…

New Testament: Jesus said; “……I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mat. Ch 16. 15-19)

***Respectfully my brother, Who in your faith has been given the authority to forgive sin in Christ’s proclamation? I am sure you can see the expressed hierarchy being established in scripture and it is even more clearly reinforced in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. The suggestion there was no overseeing authority being established to govern the Church Jesus founded is denying scripture in itself and in truth, an attempt to retain justification against what is well asserted in the establishment of the one Church established by Christ in His Blood. ***
***Nothing in Scripture supports independant teachings and if your beliefs and other beliefs practiced by other Christian faiths were of one mind, we all would be Catholic, as none other existed since 33 AD. ***

Now again, do you disregard the writings of the apostolic fathers and if so on what grounds?

***Peace ***

 

[jericho777]

Yes, the HS inspired Scripture in the first place, but Scriputre cannot “carry” authority. This can only be done by persons, not writings, however Holy.

2Tim.3
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and [SIGN]profitable[/SIGN] for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Scripture is “profitable” to use when one is engaged in the exercise of authority that Jesus gave to the Church. But Scripture cannot exercise authority, which requires decision making, taking responsibility, the ability to be held accountable, discernment, and other qualities that Scripture does not have.

This notion that Scripture is an authority is one of the most damaging heresies of the Reformation, because belieiving it has caused millions to make of themselves their own authority (believing it is the HS) and doctrinal errors continue to splinter the Church.

You are missing v15 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. It is able to make us wise for salvation that’s powerful! And that’s just the OT just imagine using both OT and NT what God can acomplish with His word.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Is 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

I had no idea it was a heresy to believe scripture was authoritative. I do/did not study the reformation. I got this notion from the reading of scripture. By seeing the power of it unto salvation. How it can radically change peoples lives.

 

[jericho777]

[Continued next post…

You sure can type

We both see authority differently in scripture. I don’t see CC level of heirarchial authority present in scripture. I don’t see an elevated priesthood either never mind there is no priesthood in NT scripture at all. When you gave the qualification for elder one of them was marriage. What happened to that?

The Jews had three major sects. They were constantly arguing, trying to find the meraning of scripture. Yet they were still in fellowship with each other. How come there was not one homogenous faith? Do you blame the Holy Spirit?

We can bind evil and loose the lost unto freedom in Christ. I have seen the sick healed and demons cast out also. I see the promises of scripture released in the lives of believers. I see Gods persence working in my life.

If the writings you are talking about are not in the bible then I would take them with a grain of salt. There may be some useful information in them but they are not Holy Spirit inspired scripture which I fully embrace.

Well at least you call me brother that’s a start. I call you brother also. Blessings
[/quote]

 

[twb1621]

You are missing v15 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. It is able to make us wise for salvation that’s powerful! And that’s just the OT just imagine using both OT and NT what God can acomplish with His word.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Is 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

I had no idea it was a heresy to believe scripture was authoritative. I do/did not study the reformation. I got this notion from the reading of scripture. By seeing the power of it unto salvation. How it can radically change peoples lives.

****jericho777, know that I am not trying to belittle you, but hopefully offering you further insight if you are open to it. Go back a few verses and read what is being said and to who here. Paul is speaking to one of his closest disciples who has routinely accompanied Paul and whom Paul has been teaching in preparation for service to the Church founded by Christ to continue on as a teacher himself. Timothy became a bishop elected by the Church and died a martyr because of his service and devotion to the work he was entrusted with in the name of Christ through His Church. ****

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**You say; “it is able to make us wise”. Paul refers to the OT as you acknowledged but the reference to Timothy’s knowledge of scripture pertains to the foreknowledge of the prophecies of the coming of the Messiah, Jesus, and with Timothy’s faith in Jesus, these scriptures give him the wisdom for salvation. But Timothy’s faith and knowledge of Jesus came from Paul, (as in verse #14) an Apostle of Christ who was chosen by Christ in the service of the teaching of the Gospel. **

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****No offense intended, but you are qualifying yourself as equally having the ability, knowledge and understanding of scripture as one taught directly by an apostle and equal to an elected bishop preacher/teacher in the Church of Christ. ****

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2 Timothy CH3; 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they also oppose the truth - people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress, for their foolishness will be plain to all, as it was with those two. 10 2 You have followed my teaching, way of life, purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra, persecutions that I endured. Yet from all these things the Lord delivered me. 12 In fact, all who want to live religiously (in the service to Christ) in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. 14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, 15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

As is confirmed in*** Colossians*** below, the fact Paul himself verifies is he is a minister of the Church of Christ. Paul, the apostle, Timothy, once the disciple of Paul taught to become a minister and hold the elected seat of the Bishopric.

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Colossians CH1: 21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.”

There is no doubt you have been touched by the Holy Spirit but do not be mistaken in thinking you have gone the distance intended for you. There is fullness to the Teachings and consequently the relationship offered you by Christ that you have not experienced and unless you open your mind to what is being explained to you in this thread, you hinder yourself. If you can not explain all the verses presented you and their opposition to what you offered in the interpretation you provided, you may wish to consider the possibility you have misunderstood some things in your devoted quest to know the Word of God.

 

[AnneElliot]

It is assumed that Protestants hear and embrace the gospel, and it is her contention that God draws everyone into the Catholic faith, and that they should study there way here. By “here” I mean ROMAN Cathlocism. I don’t think she believes that God’s grace will draw someone into a non Latin Rite.

While I think my position is clear from my previous posts, I would like to remind you that I never said anyone had to be a Roman (/Latin-rite/Western) Catholic, so please stop pretending that is a matter of contention. The Catholic Church is comprised of both the Eastern Catholics and the Roman Catholics. They are united under the Holy Father.

 

[itinerant1]

I own a profound book about the Catholic Church by the leading Catholic, Thomist philosopher of the 20th century, Jacques Maritain. The book is titled, “On the Church of Christ”. Fortunately, this book has been made available online at Nortre Dame’s Jacques Maritain Center.

Chapter X involves a discussion of the formula “No salvation outside the Church”. Here are a few lines from that chapter, the rest of which I will leave for everyone to read at their own pleasure, and enlightenment:

“No salvation outside the Church,” – this is a formula of unparalleled ambiguity. According to the sense in which one takes it, it is either a misleading assertion which immures the mind in a dungeon where it believes itself forced to despair of all those who are not our own, – or the statement of a holy truth in which we can nourish our hope toward all those who are not our own…

All non-Christians and non-Catholic Christians who have in them the grace of Christ are invisibly in the visible Church…They are in the visible Church invisibly, either from the fact that (non-Christians) they belong visibly to a spiritual family originally other than the Church, or from the fact that (non-Catholic Christians) they belong visibly to a confession in more or less profound dissidence with the Church…

On the Church of Christ, Chap X

 

[AnneElliot]

“No salvation outside the Church,” – this is a formula of unparalleled ambiguity.

Ambiguous?!
…
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council (D 430)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (D 468)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (D 714)

Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscum #10 “See to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds this dogma of our most holy religion: the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation.”

Pope Pelagius II, Dilectionis Vestrae: “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be for them that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. If slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (D 246-247)

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #5 (and #9): “The Church…regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own…The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium…Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adultress. He has cut himself off from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ…He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.”

Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood." (D 1647)

Condemned **Errors **by Pope Pius IX (Syllabus of Errors)
“15. Everyman is free to embrace and profess that religion which he, led by the light of reason, thinks to be the true religion.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.
17. We must have at least good hope concerning the eternal salvation of all those who in no wise are in the true Church of Christ.
18. Protestantism is nothing else than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is possible to serve God as well as in the Catholic Church.”
(D 1716, 1717, 1718)

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis: “Some think they are not bound by the doctrine proposed a few years ago in Our Encyclical Letter, bearing upon the sources of “revelation,” which teaches that the mystical body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. Some reduce to any empty formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to attain eternal salvation…”(D 2319)

*(D #) indicates where the passage is found in Denzinger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma

 

[itinerant1]

Ambiguous?!
…
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council (D 430)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (D 468)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (D 714)

Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscum #10 “See to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds this dogma of our most holy religion: the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation.”

Pope Pelagius II, Dilectionis Vestrae: “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be for them that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. If slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (D 246-247)

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #5 (and #9): “The Church…regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own…The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium…Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adultress. He has cut himself off from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ…He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.”

Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood." (D 1647)

Condemned **Errors **by Pope Pius IX (Syllabus of Errors)
“15. Everyman is free to embrace and profess that religion which he, led by the light of reason, thinks to be the true religion.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.
17. We must have at least good hope concerning the eternal salvation of all those who in no wise are in the true Church of Christ.
18. Protestantism is nothing else than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is possible to serve God as well as in the Catholic Church.”
(D 1716, 1717, 1718)

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis: “Some think they are not bound by the doctrine proposed a few years ago in Our Encyclical Letter, bearing upon the sources of “revelation,” which teaches that the mystical body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. Some reduce to any empty formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to attain eternal salvation…”(D 2319)

*(D #) indicates where the passage is found in Denzinger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma

 

[twb1621]

You sure can type

We both see authority differently in scripture. I don’t see CC level of heirarchial authority present in scripture. I don’t see an elevated priesthood either never mind there is no priesthood in NT scripture at all. When you gave the qualification for elder one of them was marriage. What happened to that?

One does not see what one refuses to see and because one does not see something, it does not mean it is not there… Ask many of the drivers involved in motor vehicle accidents.

The established initial hierarchal structure is obvious as is the very authority of the apostles by their own words directing the assignment of presbyters, deacons, and so on…
“of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood.” You do not see presbyters, deacons, teachers and on and on in those verses and you do not know what “overseers” refers to or that a pperson who is an overseer whould have to have authority? You do not recognize their differences are determined by their knowledge and responsibility to their service?

You gave no true consideration to the Biblical verses as they deserved but please explain your understanding of the many verses I have presented you. You misunderstood the reference to marriage to start with. Being married is not a requirement of the priesthood. It states “married only once”, meaning if married he can not be married more than once as Jesus taught. If the requirement of the priesthood was that one had to be married there would be a problem with Jesus being the High Priest as described under the order of Melchisedech. See Hebrews CH5 again. And Hebrews is in the NT. Where does it say Jesus did away with the priesthood under the order of Melchisedech? It says He became the High Priest and we know scripture tells us Jesus established His own Church within which His own Priesthood by the definition of what a priest is, a person having the authority or power to administer religious rites.

The Jews had three major sects. They were constantly arguing, trying to find the meraning of scripture. Yet they were still in fellowship with each other. How come there was not one homogenous faith? Do you blame the Holy Spirit?

Of course not, we blame the imperfection of man as human. Were any of the apostles above human fault or perfect in all ways as Jesus was? Or did they have their own faults as well. Peter denied Christ and had weakness of faith, James and John were called sons of thunder for their desire to punish, Thomas did not believe in Christ’s resurrection, and so on. These were the chosen apostles of Christ. So your point is invalid and of no support to your position.

We can bind evil and loose the lost unto freedom in Christ.

That is the farthest I ever seen a rubber band stretch my brother… Please show support for this one.

I have seen the sick healed and demons cast out also.

Satan also has the power to present such events.

I see the promises of scripture released in the lives of believers.

Perhaps you do and perhaps you do not understand all that is offered to those who seek the fullness of Christ’s offer of salvation.

I see Gods persence working in my life.

I believe I see this in you also but who would benefit from you maintaining limits to your knowledge and subsequent deeper relationship with God?

If the writings you are talking about are not in the bible then I would take them with a grain of salt. There may be some useful information in them but they are not Holy Spirit inspired scripture which I fully embrace.

I am sorry but if you claim the men taught by and succeeding the apostles who were deeply involved in the identification and selection of what truly was determined (by them) to be the Inspired Word of God were not guided by the Holy Spirit in determining and selecting these gospels, then you can not claim the Bible is actually or reliably the Inspired Word of God.

Well at least you call me brother that’s a start. I call you brother also. Blessings

Of course. I do not suggest you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. I suggest you allow Him to finish his guidance on your behalf.

 

[guanophore]

You are missing v15 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. It is able to make us wise for salvation that’s powerful! And that’s just the OT just imagine using both OT and NT what God can acomplish with His word.

I have not missed anything, Jer. Of course the Scriptures can make us wise! Catholics read them every day, and in some communties, they are prayed all day long through chanting, reading and song. I am not denying the power of the Scriptures. God can accomplish everything with His Word that He intends.

But He did not intend for the Scriptures to govern the Church. He trained people to do that. This is an activity that is outside the character of the Scripture.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The reason this is possible is because of the Person of the HS that works through Scripture. This same Word of God that is living and active resides in the Church, where it is kept infallible by the HS.

Is 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

This scripture is one of the ones that makes it seem clear that God can and will preserve the Word He entrusted to the Church. I wonder why people don’t believe He can do this?

I had no idea it was a heresy to believe scripture was authoritative.

You misunderstood, Jericho. Authoritative does not equate to exercising authority. Of course the Holy Writings are authoritative, but they do not make decisions. Only people do that.

I do/did not study the reformation. I got this notion from the reading of scripture. By seeing the power of it unto salvation. How it can radically change peoples lives.

yes, and you are to be commended for doing so. If you continue to read them, you may come to also realize that Jesus only founded One Church, and that He has infallibly preserved His word in it.

 

[AnneElliot]

For guanophore regarding Abraham and the Just of the Old Testament:

“Baptism is called the Sacrament of Faith; in so far, to wit, as in Baptism man makes a profession of faith, and by Baptism is aggregated to the congregation of the faithful. Now our faith is the same as that of the Fathers of old, according to the Apostle (2 Corinthians 4:13): “Having the same spirit of faith . . . we . . . believe.” But circumcision was a protestation of faith; wherefore by circumcision also men of old were aggregated to the body of the faithful. Consequently, it is manifest that circumcision was a preparation for Baptism and a figure thereof, forasmuch as “all things happened” to the Fathers of old “in figure” (1 Corinthians 10:11); just as their faith regarded things to come.”
newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm

“All are agreed in saying that original sin was remitted in circumcision.”
newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm

“The state of the human race after sin and before Christ can be considered from two points of view. First, from that of faith: and thus it was always one and the same: since men were made righteous, through faith in the future coming of Christ. Secondly, according as sin was more or less intense, and knowledge concerning Christ more or less explicit. For as time went on sin gained a greater hold on man, so much so that it clouded man’s reason, the consequence being that the precepts of the natural law were insufficient to make man live aright, and it became necessary to have a written code of fixed laws, and together with these certain sacraments of faith. For it was necessary, as time went on, that the knowledge of faith should be more and more unfolded, since, as Gregory says (Hom. vi in Ezech.): “With the advance of time there was an advance in the knowledge of Divine things.” Consequently in the old Law there was also a need for certain fixed sacraments significative of man’s faith in the future coming of Christ: which sacraments are compared to those that preceded the Law, as something determinate to that which is indeterminate: inasmuch as before the Law it was not laid down precisely of what sacraments men were to make use: whereas this was prescribed by the Law; and this was necessary both on account of the overclouding of the natural law, and for the clearer signification of faith.”
newadvent.org/summa/4061.htm#article3

“… when Christ descended into hell He worked by the power of His Passion. Consequently, His descent into hell brought the fruits of deliverance to them **only **who were united to His Passion through faith quickened by charity, whereby sins are taken away. Now those detained in the hell of the lost either had no faith in Christ’s Passion, as infidels; or if they had faith, they had no conformity with the charity of the suffering Christ: hence they could not be cleansed from their sins. And on this account Christ’s descent into hell brought them no deliverance from the debt of punishment in hell.”
newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm#article5

“It cannot be said that the sacraments of the Old Law conferred sanctifying grace of themselves… Nevertheless the Fathers of old were justified by faith in Christ’s Passion, just as we are. And the sacraments of the old Law were a kind of protestation of that faith, inasmuch as they signified Christ’s Passion and its effects.”
newadvent.org/summa/4062.htm#article6

However, for us born after Christ:
“Christ’s Passion put an end to the figurative sacraments, which were supplanted by Baptism and the other sacraments of the New Law.”
newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article2

St. Thomas Aquinas was the easiest reference I could link you to at the moment. If you are unsatisfied, I can dig up something else.

 

[itinerant1]

Ambiguous?!
…
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council (D 430)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (D 468)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (D 714)

Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscum #10 “See to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds this dogma of our most holy religion: the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation.”

Pope Pelagius II, Dilectionis Vestrae: “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be for them that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. If slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (D 246-247)

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #5 (and #9): “The Church…regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own…The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium…Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adultress. He has cut himself off from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ…He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.”

Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood." (D 1647)

Condemned **Errors **by Pope Pius IX (Syllabus of Errors)
“15. Everyman is free to embrace and profess that religion which he, led by the light of reason, thinks to be the true religion.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.
17. We must have at least good hope concerning the eternal salvation of all those who in no wise are in the true Church of Christ.
18. Protestantism is nothing else than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is possible to serve God as well as in the Catholic Church.”
(D 1716, 1717, 1718)

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis: “Some think they are not bound by the doctrine proposed a few years ago in Our Encyclical Letter, bearing upon the sources of “revelation,” which teaches that the mystical body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. Some reduce to any empty formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to attain eternal salvation…”(D 2319)

*(D #) indicates where the passage is found in Denzinger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma

Good quotes. However, there is nothing in these quotes that contradicts what Maritain says. You would have known that if you had read the chapter in question. But then again, maybe not.

Accordingly, your response is a non-repsonse. You have not presented a counter-argument to Maritain’s thesis, of which you apparently know nothing about because you have not made the effort to read and understand it. There is no merit in arguing against a position you do not understand. To put matters succinctly, your post has only the appearance of a counter-argument.

Theological discussion, if it is to be of any worth, must delve below the surface of things, and this requires using one’s mind to think critically and form judgements. Your “non-responsive” post suggests to everyone that you are hardly thinking about the issue before you make, to use a cliche, a “knee-jerk response”.

 

[guanophore]

For guanophore regarding Abraham and the Just of the Old Testament:

…

St. Thomas Aquinas was the easiest reference I could link you to at the moment. If you are unsatisfied, I can dig up something else.

Anne, I never had any doubts about Abraham’s salvation, or the means by which it was accomplished. Perhaps you assumed that I have not read this article, and others on the subject.

I think there is no amount of “digging” that you can do that will satisfy me. I have no quarrel with the teaching of the Church, which has been preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit.

My quarrel is with you, my dear. there is nothing in this article that states Abraham had to be a member of the visible Catholic Church to be saved, as you have indicated is necessary. Prior to posting this, you agreed with me that there were “qualifiers” for certain people, the just of the OT being among them. What you seem to deny is that there are qualifiers for our separated brethren as well.

However, I am not here to be “satisfied” by you. I am content to commend you to your beliefs. I will hold you up in prayer, as well as all those among our separated brethren who will be insulted by your lack of affirmation for their faith in God.

 

[guanophore]

Good quotes. However, there is nothing in these quotes that contradicts what Maritain says. You would have known that if you had read the chapter in question. But then again, maybe not.

Accordingly, your response is a non-repsonse. You have not presented a counter-argument to Maritain’s thesis, of which you apparently know nothing about because you have not made the effort to read and understand it. There is no merit in arguing against a position you do not understand. To put matters succinctly, your post has only the appearance of a counter-argument.

Theological discussion, if it is to be of any worth, must delve below the surface of things, and this requires using one’s mind to think critically and form judgements. Your “non-responsive” post suggests to everyone that you are hardly thinking about the issue before you make, to use a cliche, a “knee-jerk response”.

Aw, c’mon itinerant! She has degree in theology! Obviously she has spent years studying this, and probably has carefully placed all these wonderful quotes in a text file.

Besides, she has already stated that no theologian or anyone else has anything to say that is more valuable than a Papal or concilar document, so there is really no need to read and study such things.

 

[JM3]

A sample of Karl Adam’s ‘The Spirit of Catholicism’:

For non-Catholic communions are not merely non-Catholic and anti-Catholic. When they set themselves up against the original Church of Christ, they took over and maintained a considerable amount of the Catholic inheritance, and also certain Catholic means of grace, in particular the sacrament of Baptism. They are therefore, if we regard them as a whole, not mere antithesis and negation, but also to a large extent thesis and affirmation of the ancient treasure of truth and grace that has come down to us from Christ and the apostles. Their churches are built not only of their own un-Catholic materials, but also of Catholic stuff from the original store of salvation. And in so far as they are genuinely Catholic in their faith and worship, it can and will and must happen that there should be, even outside the visible Church, a real growth and progress in union with Christ. So is the promise of Jesus fulfilled: “And other sheep I have that are not of this fold” (Jn. x, 16). Wherever the Gospel of Jesus is faithfully preached, and wherever baptism is conferred with faith in His Holy Name, there His grace can operate. When the disciples would have forbidden a man who had not attached himself to Jesus from casting out devils in His Name, Our Lord declared: “Forbid him not. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. He that is not against you is for you” (Mk. ix, 38-39). The Church acted entirely in harmony with these words of our Lord when in her severe struggle with St. Cyprian and the African tradition and afterwards in prolonged controversy with the Donatists, she upheld the validity of baptism in the Name of Jesus conferred by heretics. And it was Rome, Rome that is so violently attacked for her intolerance, and Pope Stephen, who even at the peril of an African schism would not allow heretical baptism to be impugned. The Church practices the same toleration with regard to the valid administration of the other sacraments, so far as their nature requires only the power of orders and not also the power of jurisdiction. In those non-Catholic bodies in which the apostolic succession has been maintained by means of valid episcopal ordinations, as in the schismatic churches of the East, and in the Jansenist and Old-Catholic churches, she still recognizes the validity of all those sacraments which of their nature do not require her power of jurisdiction but only valid orders. It is Catholic teaching, therefore, that in all these churches the true Body and the true Blood of Christ are received in the Holy Eucharist, not because they are schismatical churches, that is to say not because of their own special character, but because in spite of this they still preserve a part of the original Catholic heritage. It is that which is Catholic in them that still has power to sanctify and to save.

&

The assertion that the Catholic Church of later centuries has developed the ideas of St. Cyprian and St. Augustine, that she has 'continually sharpened the principle of exclusiveness and so continually narrowed Catholicism"[5] is in contradiction with the plain facts of history. For the truth is that the later Church corrected the original rigorism of the ancient African theologian and maintained that God’s grace worked even outside the Catholic body. Non-Catholic sacraments have the power to sanctify and save, not only objectively, but also subjectively. It is therefore conceivable also, from the Church’s standpoint, that there is a true, devout and Christian life in those non-Catholic communions which believe in Jesus and baptize in His Name.

&

The Church rightly maintains and continually reiterates, in decisive and uncompromising fashion, her claim to be the sole true Body of Christ; but at the same time she holds a generous and large-minded view regarding the activity of Christ’s grace. That activity has no bounds or limits, but is as infinite as the love of God.

 

[JM3]

Vatican II: DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
2. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

 

[Pitcharan]

For guanophore regarding Abraham and the Just of the Old Testament:

"Baptism is called the … the easiest reference I could link you to at the moment. If you are unsatisfied, I can dig up something else.

Dear Anne,
I have been reading your many posts on this thread. Instead of engaging in a meaningful healthy debate, you are posing like an authortative spokesperson of the CC and in the process causing much damage by saying things which our Holy Mother the Church never said or implied. Please get this into your heart and head: **THE CC IS GOD’S OWN MYSTICAL BODY AND AN INSTITUTION FOR SALVATION AND NOT DAMNATION. ** For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. (Jn 3:17) Our Lord Himself said:"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." (Jn 12:47-48). However, He said nothing about those who did not hear His words. So it is obvious, that neither the Lord nor His church ever talked about damnation of those who never heard His words.

You are drawing your own meaning of “no salvation outside the church”. The CC merely warns the faithful about “false teachings on salvation other than that preached by the church”