No Salvation Outside The Church?

[Deconi]

Your choice of words “undermining” and “discredit” have a pejorative nuance. Just a note.

Anne misrepresents what the Church teaches about salvation. I argue my points and she distorts my points and then rejects her mischaracterizations of my points. It’s called a “straw man fallacy.” That does not earn anyone’s respect.

Apparently you have been awed by her proliferation of quotes without realizing the selective nature of the quotes, one which distorts the issue. Her tact is then to ask how she has been selective. But such things were previously addressed and ignored by her. I would frequently have to refer her back to earlier posts if I were to play that game. And that would be a waste of my time.

The whole matter goes circular without her actually engaging in a rational discussion or argument. The ability to post quotes is no demonstration of one’s understanding of a theological issue.

My post from Pope John Paul II, with comment, has actually disproven her unduly narrow, and therefore erroneous, presentation of the issue. Will it make any difference? No.

The truth is, I am now making posts to help others understand better the issue at hand. I just use Anne’s posts as springboards for that since she has demonstrated an unwillingness to understand the counter-arguments, such as her refusal to read Maritain’s essay, though she is quick to criticize one of his statements. That being the case, I am no longer debating with her, and will move on to discuss the issue with other members in this thread.

WHOA! - Do I ‘look’ like the ‘validation’ or ‘verifying’ Police?!

Thank you for the qualifying rant, albeit, unneccessary. I have read the thread.

The thing is, from my perspective, you are all correct in part. But you (all) are arguing ‘past’ each other, trying to drive your points home.

Anne is correct in holding with the ECFS and successive Popes who made the proclamation and stipulated the means of salvation! How can it be wrong if the documents and citations are from the ‘root’ source…as opposed to ‘opinions’ of non-authorities?!

‘You’ are also correct in offering the developing mind of ‘Authority’ in defining the perimeters of the path of salvation which is in a mysterious and universal way…as to encompass, basically, the universe??! But the statement remains true and unmoved!

…*

Maybe it’s just me…

 

[Tradycja]

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1994: “The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess” (Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 26, Ignatius Press)

 

[cathdoki]

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1994: “The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess” (Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 26, Ignatius Press)

So, what was his intent in writing the CCC and putting some of the statements regarding salvation for non-Catholics? To confuse us?

 

[Emerite]

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1994: “The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess” (Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 26, Ignatius Press)

Ignatius Press’s Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 26, further states, “The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the whole. Since it transmit what the Church teaches, whoever rejects it as a whole separates himself beyond question from the faith and teaching of the Church.”

I believe the blanket statement that there is “No Salvation Outside the Church” is an incorrect statement – there can be exceptions. However, in response to a writer on this Post who said, “then, why be Catholic?” The Catechism, at No. 846, indicates that if a non-Catholic intellectually realizes that the CC is the one true Church and fails to enter it (convert), he/she could not be saved. See CCC, at No. 846, which states “ … they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it?”

 

[RoseRed2]

There is salvation outside the Church if you don’t know any better.

 

[AnneElliot]

To clarify about “invincible ignorance”… God desires all men to be saved AND come to knowledge of the truth. Divine Providence is in control. Those with open hearts to the Gospel (open hearts PREPARED by the Lord), will be englightened by God somehow (a missionary, or internal inspiration, etc.) so that they can be brought to saving faith, knoweldge, **and **the Church…

1 Timothy 2:3-4 “God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Lumen Gentium #16 “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not ***yet ***arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord”

Pope Pius IX * Quanto conficiamur moerore *“Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments…”

St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is."

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: Objection- “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith. St. Thomas replies- It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance. In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him…"

Ven. Mary of Agreda bilocated more than 500 times to convert and teach the Native Americans about the Faith.

etc.

 

[itinerant1]

To clarify about “invincible ignorance”… God desires all men to be saved AND come to knowledge of the truth. Divine Providence is in control. Those with open hearts to the Gospel (open hearts PREPARED by the Lord), will be englightened by God somehow (a missionary, or internal inspiration, etc.) so that they can be brought to saving faith, knoweldge, **and **the Church…

1 Timothy 2:3-4 “God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Lumen Gentium #16 “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not ***yet ***arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord”

Pope Pius IX *Quanto conficiamur moerore *“Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments…”

St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is."

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: Objection- “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith. St. Thomas replies- It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance. In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him…"

Ven. Mary of Agreda bilocated more than 500 times to convert and teach the Native Americans about the Faith.

etc.

What is it about invincible ignorance that you believe you have clarified? It is difficult to discern what you think is relevant about some of your quotes. In fact, the mention of such situations as Mary of Agreda suggests that you do not understand “invincible ignorance.”

Also, was Socrates in the Church and thereby saved? (The situation, of course, is hypothetical but realistic nonetheless.)

 

[cathdoki]

Isn’t it time to just ignore this silliness from her?

 

[itinerant1]

Pope John Paul II affirms that salvation is possible to those who are not external members of the Church. This statement corresponds to Maritain’s distinction of those who are invisible members of the visible Church.

Those who deny this fact arbitrarily limit Christ’s grace, which is truly made available to non-Catholics and non-Christians. As John Paul II says, “It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her.”

“This affirmation of the Savior’s “uniqueness” derives from the Lord’s own words. He stated that he came “to give his own life in ransom for the many” (Mk 10:45), that is, for humanity, as St. Paul explains when he writes: “One died for all” (2 Cor 5:14; cf. Rom 5:18). Christ won universal salvation with the gift of his own life. No other mediator has been established by God as Savior. The unique value of the sacrifice of the cross must always be acknowledged in the destiny of every man. … For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. … In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a yes to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. … Religions can exercise a positive influence on the destiny of those who belong to them and follow their guidance in a sincere spirit. … The Church does not exist nor does she work for herself, but is at the service of a humanity called to divine sonship in Christ (cf. RM 19). She thus exercises an implicit mediation also with regard to those who do not know the Gospel.” (All Salvation Comes through Christ; General Audience — May 31, 1995)

It appears that some people who are formally outside the Church are yet in the Church spiritually, having received the grace of Christ, but may know nothing explicitly about Christ and His Church while alive on earth. In fact, they may outwardly reject the Church.

 

[itinerant1]

Redemptoris missio

Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All

1. "The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

“For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that “this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God.””

I thought this such a great quote that it merits re-posting.

 

[itinerant1]

Isn’t it time to just ignore this silliness from her?

Sic et non.

 

[jericho777]

****jericho777, know that I am not trying to belittle you, but hopefully offering you further insight if you are open to it. Go back a few verses and read what is being said and to who here. Paul is speaking to one of his closest disciples who has routinely accompanied Paul and whom Paul has been teaching in preparation for service to the Church founded by Christ to continue on as a teacher himself. Timothy became a bishop elected by the Church and died a martyr because of his service and devotion to the work he was entrusted with in the name of Christ through His Church. ****

---

You say; “it is able to make us wise”. Paul refers to the OT as you acknowledged but the reference to Timothy’s knowledge of scripture pertains to the foreknowledge of the prophecies of the coming of the Messiah, Jesus, and with Timothy’s faith in Jesus, these scriptures give him the wisdom for salvation. But Timothy’s faith and knowledge of Jesus came from Paul, (as in verse #14) an Apostle of Christ who was chosen by Christ in the service of the teaching of the Gospel.

---

****No offense intended, but you are qualifying yourself as equally having the ability, knowledge and understanding of scripture as one taught directly by an apostle and equal to an elected bishop preacher/teacher in the Church of Christ. ****

---

---

2 Timothy CH3; 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they also oppose the truth - people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress, for their foolishness will be plain to all, as it was with those two. 10 2 You have followed my teaching, way of life, purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra, persecutions that I endured. Yet from all these things the Lord delivered me. 12 In fact, all who want to live religiously (in the service to Christ) in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. 14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, 15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

As is confirmed in*** Colossians*** below, the fact Paul himself verifies is he is a minister of the Church of Christ. Paul, the apostle, Timothy, once the disciple of Paul taught to become a minister and hold the elected seat of the Bishopric.

---

Colossians CH1: 21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.”

There is no doubt you have been touched by the Holy Spirit but do not be mistaken in thinking you have gone the distance intended for you. There is fullness to the Teachings and consequently the relationship offered you by Christ that you have not experienced and unless you open your mind to what is being explained to you in this thread, you hinder yourself. If you can not explain all the verses presented you and their opposition to what you offered in the interpretation you provided, you may wish to consider the possibility you have misunderstood some things in your devoted quest to know the Word of God.

Yes the many hundreds of prophecies but it’s greater than that. It lays the foundation of faith for all generations to come. It is God’s word.

How did I qualify myself as one taught by an apostle? I only know what I do from reading and studying scripture. I am sure of my faith and able to defend it. Talking to JW’s will force you to know what you believe and why.

I do not know what you mean by I think I’ve gone the distance intended for me? I t would take me a very long time to write lengthy dissertations for all the verses presented. My time is short and my typing ability limited. And sometimes I think it’s better not to give a response.

 

[cathdoki]

Contrary to a few elitists, there is Salvation being a Christian even if they are not in full communion with the CC. To be a Christian is to be at least in some way part of Catholic or Universal Church.

Christ is not an elitist. Some here are.

 

[twb1621]

Being familiar with many I respect a great many of you in this thread and it takes all of us at times for that one misunderstanding non-Catholic Christian to find the right one of us who may get through in their presentation of the truth or even a single comment that may ring a bell. Thanks be to God we all have slightly different approaches as I know mine (no such thing as political correctness) is not for everyone. No Catholic in a relationship with Christ through His Church would believe Jesus to be a God who would condemn to eternal damnation, anyone who possesses the heartfelt desire and devotion to respond to Him in the only way they have been taught was correct while not having any true knowledge of the Catholic Faith through her teachings of His Word. We seem here to have a slight conflict mostly among ourselves but I believe what I have said is a given knowing the posting of many here from other threads.

We all know that for a sin to be a sin according to CC teachings there must be intent and knowledge the considered activity is a sin. Of course ignorance is not a “get out of jail free” card but I am not referring to wanton ignorance so we can bypass that one. The Catholic Church holds that a Catholic who leaves the Church rejects the salvation Jesus offers through His Church and no, there is no salvation outside the Church without repentance under such a condition but only God knows the hearts of man to man’s last breath. No one can unlearn what they have been blessedly taught freeing them self to be a practitioner in a faith of less requirements just because it is more comfortable, convenient or has less demands. The more one is given the more is expected of them.

But, we are 500 years beyond that time of the “reformation” which has given birth to the many non-Catholic Christian Faiths and distorted teachings presented by those who preached from their own opinions, their own personalized beliefs, and lack of belief, derived from the stolen writings of the apostolic Church. Scripture warned of it so we expected it. We watch as time passes the births of more and more established “opinions” described as “churches”, boasting names on their exterior walls, spring up. However, this ongoing tumor has raised the awareness and suspicion of distorted teachings and confusion among many non-Catholic Christians including preachers, ministers, pastors and scholars and conversion to the CC is also growing among the learned.

They who broke away and distorted His word have much to answer for but the Church acknowledges the 500 years of separation that left many devout worshipers of Christ with no knowledge of what the fullness and accurate teachings of His Church bestow to its faithful. For those who worship Christ devoutly according to what they have been led to believe is the way to salvation, as I said before, surely must be judged in heart as well as faith. One can not miss what one does not know exists. We pray for their enlightenment through the grace of God and questions they may raise regarding conflicts they may find between verses of His written word. But again, the Church has recognized their intent to worship Christ, there many years seperated from the fullness and truth in His Teachings and the necessity to open her heart and doors to our separated brothers and sisters so they may feel welcome enough to ask the questions and learn with their due consideration what the Truth is. Through the grace of the Holy Spirit, they ask, and through the grace of the Holy Spirit we hope to answer accurately and compassionately… not always easy to do. They only know what others have told them against the CC which was told to them to justify their own “Christian” faiths separate of the Catholic Faith. When we take an active part we assume a major responsibility for the defense and clarification of “The Way” and I certainly hope those of you who may know of an error on my part will be there to point it out to me.

 

[jericho777]

One does not see what one refuses to see and because one does not see something, it does not mean it is not there… Ask many of the drivers involved in motor vehicle accidents.

The established initial hierarchal structure is obvious as is the very authority of the apostles by their own words directing the assignment of presbyters, deacons, and so on…
“of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood.” You do not see presbyters, deacons, teachers and on and on in those verses and you do not know what “overseers” refers to or that a pperson who is an overseer whould have to have authority? You do not recognize their differences are determined by their knowledge and responsibility to their service?

You gave no true consideration to the Biblical verses as they deserved but please explain your understanding of the many verses I have presented you. You misunderstood the reference to marriage to start with. Being married is not a requirement of the priesthood. It states “married only once”, meaning if married he can not be married more than once as Jesus taught. If the requirement of the priesthood was that one had to be married there would be a problem with Jesus being the High Priest as described under the order of Melchisedech. See Hebrews CH5 again. And Hebrews is in the NT. Where does it say Jesus did away with the priesthood under the order of Melchisedech? It says He became the High Priest and we know scripture tells us Jesus established His own Church within which His own Priesthood by the definition of what a priest is, a person having the authority or power to administer religious rites.

Of course not, we blame the imperfection of man as human. Were any of the apostles above human fault or perfect in all ways as Jesus was? Or did they have their own faults as well. Peter denied Christ and had weakness of faith, James and John were called sons of thunder for their desire to punish, Thomas did not believe in Christ’s resurrection, and so on. These were the chosen apostles of Christ. So your point is invalid and of no support to your position.

That is the farthest I ever seen a rubber band stretch my brother… Please show support for this one.

Satan also has the power to present such events.

Perhaps you do and perhaps you do not understand all that is offered to those who seek the fullness of Christ’s offer of salvation.

I believe I see this in you also but who would benefit from you maintaining limits to your knowledge and subsequent deeper relationship with God?

I am sorry but if you claim the men taught by and succeeding the apostles who were deeply involved in the identification and selection of what truly was determined (by them) to be the Inspired Word of God were not guided by the Holy Spirit in determining and selecting these gospels, then you can not claim the Bible is actually or reliably the Inspired Word of God.

Of course. I do not suggest you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. I suggest you allow Him to finish his guidance on your behalf.

There is definitely structure and authority in the NT but there is no elevated clergy. You all look and act more like Pharisees than servants of God. There are supposed to be overseers not rulers.

The only priesthood in the NT is the priesthood of all believers. Jesus is the end of the priesthood as such because He is the ultimate high priest because He offered His own blood once forever. It is the perfectly complete sacrifice wiping away all sins forever. Never having to be offered over and over again as with an earthly high priest.

Elders and deacons are to be the husband of one wife. The context that it is written in makes it a prerequisite for the office.

So now you are saying it is satan who is doing these miracles. Why because your church doesn’t think God will work outside of itself. I have never seen any miracles done in a CC in my 28 years of attending. On a regular basis I see miracles done in my church. Demons cast out cancer healed the deaf hearing and more. Should you ever need a miracle from the hand of God in the name of Jesus let me know, you have an open invitation.

As to the apostolic tradition you speak of, someone here told me God can use a donkey to accomplish His will.

 

[twb1621]

Yes the many hundreds of prophecies but it’s greater than that. It lays the foundation of faith for all generations to come. It is God’s word.

How did I qualify myself as one taught by an apostle? I only know what I do from reading and studying scripture. I am sure of my faith and able to defend it. Talking to JW’s will force you to know what you believe and why.

I do not know what you mean by I think I’ve gone the distance intended for me? I t would take me a very long time to write lengthy dissertations for all the verses presented. My time is short and my typing ability limited. And sometimes I think it’s better not to give a response.

Understand my brother, finding out the truth requires the effort and that is what we are doing here, making the effort for those who wish to learn while those who wish to learn make the effort to raise their questions or issues. True devotion demands seeking the answers, not ignoring the questions for a more suitable or easier conclusion. It is not necessary that you write me to explain how every one of these verses relate or come in opposition to your beliefs. But it is necessary for you to be able to correctly find those answers for yourself which is why I offered them in such length.

Those who have determined themselves as capable of discerning scripture independently, open themselves up to the distortions of opinion in which case you can no more rightly claim your opinion holds any more validity than any other of 30000 plus “official” Christian systems of belief, all of which claim to be correct. I have spoken deeply with JW and have JW among my family members so that never ends. But take your example of the JW and just compare the NWT, KJV, and Latin Vulgate Bibles for instance and you tell me which one is distorted or deceitful and which one offers the True Teachings of Christ and how you know. If you go by “the Bible” alone, you cannot know which one is true. It is only through the lineage in teachings over 2000 years that proves which is “The Way, The Truth, and The Life”, how do you know which interpretation of the Bible is His true Teachings if you make all your own interpretations? And are you aware that for someone who wishes to go by the Scripture, you oppose the Gospel’s direction by self interpreting?

 

[Deconi]

Being familiar with many I respect a great many of you in this thread and it takes all of us at times for that one misunderstanding non-Catholic Christian to find the right one of us who may get through in their presentation of the truth or even a single comment that may ring a bell. Thanks be to God we all have slightly different approaches as I know mine (no such thing as political correctness) is not for everyone. No Catholic in a relationship with Christ through His Church would believe Jesus to be a God who would condemn to eternal damnation, anyone who possesses the heartfelt desire and devotion to respond to Him in the only way they have been taught was correct while not having any true knowledge of the Catholic Faith through her teachings of His Word. We seem here to have a slight conflict mostly among ourselves but I believe what I have said is a given knowing the posting of many here from other threads.

We all know that for a sin to be a sin according to CC teachings there must be intent and knowledge the considered activity is a sin. Of course ignorance is not a “get out of jail free” card but I am not referring to wanton ignorance so we can bypass that one. The Catholic Church holds that a Catholic who leaves the Church rejects the salvation Jesus offers through His Church and no, there is no salvation outside the Church without repentance under such a condition but only God knows the hearts of man to man’s last breath. No one can unlearn what they have been blessedly taught freeing them self to be a practitioner in a faith of less requirements just because it is more comfortable, convenient or has less demands. The more one is given the more is expected of them.

But, we are 500 years beyond that time of the “reformation” which has given birth to the many non-Catholic Christian Faiths and distorted teachings presented by those who preached from their own opinions, their own personalized beliefs, and lack of belief, derived from the stolen writings of the apostolic Church. Scripture warned of it so we expected it. We watch as time passes the births of more and more established “opinions” described as “churches”, boasting names on their exterior walls, spring up. However, this ongoing tumor has raised the awareness and suspicion of distorted teachings and confusion among many non-Catholic Christians including preachers, ministers, pastors and scholars and conversion to the CC is also growing among the learned.

They who broke away and distorted His word have much to answer for but the Church acknowledges the 500 years of separation that left many devout worshipers of Christ with no knowledge of what the fullness and accurate teachings of His Church bestow to its faithful. For those who worship Christ devoutly according to what they have been led to believe is the way to salvation, as I said before, surely must be judged in heart as well as faith. One can not miss what one does not know exists. We pray for their enlightenment through the grace of God and questions they may raise regarding conflicts they may find between verses of His written word. But again, the Church has recognized their intent to worship Christ, there many years seperated from the fullness and truth in His Teachings and the necessity to open her heart and doors to our separated brothers and sisters so they may feel welcome enough to ask the questions and learn with their due consideration what the Truth is. Through the grace of the Holy Spirit, they ask, and through the grace of the Holy Spirit we hope to answer accurately and compassionately… not always easy to do. They only know what others have told them against the CC which was told to them to justify their own “Christian” faiths separate of the Catholic Faith. When we take an active part we assume a major responsibility for the defense and clarification of “The Way” and I certainly hope those of you who may know of an error on my part will be there to point it out to me.

Ahh! Wisdom!..the prince of all knowledge.

Well said, Tom.

 

[OKAstro]

'Tis funny, I’ve patiently read through this thread and all ‘Anne’ has done is quote the proclamation, supported it with source material and hold to the position of the ECFS and succeeding Popes!

Her antagonists, probably in efforts to save everyone else in existence, have accused her of views she never claims or posit, refute those ‘views’ with subjective musings of theologians who weren’t exercising Papal Authority, and then accuse her of holding such views! About 30% of this thread is wasted with her trying to defend views she didn’t forward.

For what it’s worth, which isn’t much,… Anne, I’m with you!

**We know what we know! ** Revelation has shown and the Apostolic Succession teaches and continues to teach, Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God and no other name under Heaven can save us! If you know Christ or heard of Him, somehow this can only be through The Church…therefore salvation CAN be yours and it will be THROUGH The Church.

**We don’t know what we don’t know!..**but The Church has ‘reached’ into the unknown by SPECIFYING how those outside Her scope can ALSO attain salvation. In essence, The Church has proclaimed salvation is offered to every soul ever born!..but the assurances we do know is absent…for only God knows.

Clearly, there is no salvation outside The Church!

That is a DOGMATIC, INFALLIBLE proclamation…made with The Keys given to Peter’s Office! We know it is infallible because of the successive efforts to elaborate and expand it’s meaning so as to illuminate or light-up all who are created. Some theologians have relegated it to a ‘locale’ perimeter thinking it applied only to a specific people and time. ‘Theologians’ do not have The Keys to unlock it!

Several Popes make address of it since, which is indicative of it’s dogmatic bind on all the faithful.

The point is, salvation is not to be ‘gambled’ with, or to ‘test’ God. He has made it clear through Scriptures that He desire ALL be saved and through His Church, He has stipulated the means of salvation, just as He did with His people in the OT. **The difference is … we Catholics and non-Catholics, Christians and non-Christians are now understood to be ALL His people! NT. **

Lastly, Abraham was Catholic when he was circumcised…just as we are when we are Baptised. The Church is not called The Mystical Body of Christ for nothing.

Well said Deconi - I agree. Anne has owned this debate. Her detractors have resorted to petty comments trying to demean her character - and is a sign of desparation because they have nothing else.

 

[JM3]

Contrary to a few elitists, there is Salvation being a Christian even if they are not in full communion with the CC. To be a Christian is to be at least in some way part of Catholic or Universal Church.

Christ is not an elitist. Some here are.

This is not what the Church teaches.

Matthew 25:31-46. Have you considered that some Catholics may not find salvation IN the Church?

I wonder what happened to charity.

 

[JM3]

Karl Adam wrote :

The Catholic Church as the Body of Christ, as the realization in the world of the Kingdom of God, is the Church of Humanity. Of her essential nature she aims at the incorporation of the men of all times and all places in the one Body of Christ. Hence inevitably her external and internal catholicity, her accessibility and comprehensiveness. And hence also her exclusiveness, that is her claim to be the Church of Humanity, the exclusive institution wherein all men shall attain salvation. Because the Church is conscious that she is the Church of humanity and that Kingdom of God to which all men whatsoever by the will of Christ fundamentally belong, she cannot admit that men can be saved by membership in other societies established by the side of and in antagonism to the primary Church of Humanity founded by Christ. Even Heiler cannot deny the cogency of this position. "So far as Catholicism is genuinely universal and represents fully all religious values, it must be exclusive. But this exclusiveness is not the exclusiveness of narrowness, but of inexhaustible wealth.[1] The Church would belie her own deepest essence and her most outstanding quality, namely her inexhaustible fullness and that which guarantees and supports this fullness, her vocation to be the Body of Christ, if she were ever to recognize some collateral and antagonistic Christian church as her sister and as possessing equal rights with herself. She can recognize the historical importance of such churches. She can designate them as Christian communions, yes, even as Christian churches, but never as the Church of Christ. One God, one Christ, one Baptism, one Church. There can never be a second Christ, and in the same way there cannot be a second Body of Christ, a second manifestation of His spirit. When some American Christians went to Rome in the Spring of 1919 to invite Pope Benedict XV to take part in a “World Conference on Faith and Order,” they misunderstood the Catholic conception of the Church and this its fundamental claim. The Catholic Church can and will appraise generously, and will countenance, all the communities of non-Catholic Christendom. She can and will recognize in them the first rudiments of a preparation for that re-union of all Christians which is demanded by the present state of Christendom in general and of the West in particular. But she cannot recognize other Christian communions as churches of like order and rights with herself. To do so would be infidelity to her own nature, and would be the worst disloyalty to herself. In her own eyes the Catholic Church is nothing at all if she be not the Church, the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God. This exclusiveness is rooted in the exclusiveness of Christ, in His claim to be the bringer of the new life, to be the way, the truth and the life. The fullness of the Divinity was revealed to us in Christ. The Incarnate God is the last and most perfect self- revelation of God. God’s wisdom, goodness and mercy became incarnate in Him. “Of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace” (Jn. i, 16). And therefore there is no other road to God except through Christ. There is “no other name under heaven given to men, whereby they must be saved” (Acts iv, 12). But we can grasp Christ only through His Church. It is true that He might, had He so willed, have imparted Himself and His grace to all men directly, in personal experience. But the question is not what might have been, but what Christ in fact willed to do. And in fact He willed to give Himself to men through men, that is by the way of a community life and not by the way of isolation and individualism. He willed that His grace should come to men who were conjoined in a single compact fellowship, and that it should come to them through this fellowship, not without it, and still less in opposition to it. It was not His will to sanctify a countless multitude of solitary souls, but a corporate kingdom of saints, a Kingdom of God. And this method of communicating Himself corresponds entirely to His fundamental requirement, the commandment of fraternal love. For that commandment implies a community, implies the union of the brethren, and there can be no fraternal love without such a community. And it corresponds also to the essential nature of divine grace, which is offered to all men at once. The grace of God in its manifestation is a catholic power, comprehending and grasping all men. So that it cannot manifest itself otherwise than in absolute unity. There can be no contradiction, or dissension, or schism where God is. His truth cannot be otherwise than one truth, one life, one love. And therefore it can be realized in but one form, in a comprehensive fellowship that binds together all men in intimate unity.