No Salvation outside the Church?!

[DoxieMama]

The Catechism 846 says “outside the church there is no salvation”

It says those who refuse to enter it or remain in it will not attain salvation, upon knowing it’s founded by God through Christ.

So, if I decide the Catholic church is not for me, as I am now in RCIA and thinking of dropping out, does that mean I’m going to Hell?!

I love Jesus and believe in Him, so why would I go to Hell for not becoming Catholic?!

Or, is the above passage not to be taken literally?

 

[davidv]

The Catechism 846 says “outside the church there is no salvation”

It says those who refuse to enter it or remain in it will not attain salvation, upon knowing it’s founded by God through Christ.

So, if I decide the Catholic church is not for me, as I am now in RCIA and thinking of dropping out, does that mean I’m going to Hell?!

That is not for any of us to say. That is between you and God only.

I love Jesus and believe in Him, so why would I go to Hell for not becoming Catholic?!

If Jesus established a Church on earth and gave it authority to speak for Him, would your disobedience of the Church be disobedience of Him? Would this disobedience be sufficient to separate you from Him?

Or, is the above passage not to be taken literally?

It must be taken literally, as long as one understands what “in the church” means in this context.

 

[bilop]

The Catechism 846 says “outside the church there is no salvation”

It says those who refuse to enter it or remain in it will not attain salvation, upon knowing it’s founded by God through Christ.

So, if I decide the Catholic church is not for me, as I am now in RCIA and thinking of dropping out, does that mean I’m going to Hell?!

I love Jesus and believe in Him, so why would I go to Hell for not becoming Catholic?!

Or, is the above passage not to be taken literally?

What this means is that everyone in Heaven will be Catholic. Some may not have been visibly Catholic in this life, but the must be reconciled to Christ and the Church before they enter Heaven.

The clearest examples are the OT Saints, and the Holy Innocents (or really any validly baptized, non-Catholic child that dies before the age of reason). They were never members of the Catholic Church on earth, but must be in Heaven.

Jesus himself went to preach to the OT faithful after his death. How others are reconciled to the Church is a mystery we don’t know.

God Bless

 

[Genesis315]

If you’re not united to the Body of Christ, which is the Church, how can you have His life in you? Think about it, if you cut off one of your own members, it’ll shrivel up and die. So you have to be united to the Body to be saved. To do this, you need to be baptized into the one Body in the one Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), partake of the one bread as one Body (1 Cor. 10:17), profess the One Lord, one faith, one Baptism (Eph 4:4-5). Like Noah’s ark, you have to be on board to be saved (as the Bible says, like Noah’s ark in the flood, Baptism now saves (1 Peter 3:20-21), and as I mentioned earlier, we are baptized into one Body, apart from which, one cannot be saved–so the ark and the Body have the same significance in this regard).

The Church has also universally and definitively taught this dogma on at least three occasions (at the Fourth Lateran Council, by Pope Boniface VIII, and at the Council of Florence).

Here’s a good, short read on the finer points of this dogma from Pope Bl. John Paul II :
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

 

[clem456]

If you’re not united to the Body of Christ, which is the Church, how can you have His life in you? Think about it, if you cut off one of your own members, it’ll shrivel up and die. So you have to be united to the Body to be saved. To do this, you need to be baptized into the one Body in the one Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), partake of the one bread as one Body (1 Cor. 10:17), profess the One Lord, one faith, one Baptism (Eph 4:4-5). Like Noah’s ark, you have to be on board to be saved (as the Bible says, like Noah’s ark in the flood, Baptism now saves (1 Peter 3:20-21), and as I mentioned earlier, we are baptized into one Body, apart from which, one cannot be saved–so the ark and the Body have the same significance in this regard).

The Church has also universally and definitively taught this dogma on at least three occasions (at the Fourth Lateran Council, by Pope Boniface VIII, and at the Council of Florence).

Here’s a good, short read on the finer points of this dogma from Pope Bl. John Paul II :
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

Ummmm…I don’t think the document you quoted backs up what you state here as your interpretation of that position.
This issue has been debated on the forum many times if you search for it. It is not necessarily as simply as we would like it to be.

Lumen Gentium is probably the best place to go for definitive Church teaching:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Especially Chapter 2 section 16

 

[Genesis315]

Ummmm…I don’t think the document you quoted backs up what you state here as your interpretation of that position.
This issue has been debated on the forum many times if you search for it. It is not necessarily as simply as we would like it to be.

I didn’t meant to imply it was simple, which is why I linked to the audience which provided a short summary of the “finer points” as I said. I wanted to provide the Biblical and Magisterial foundation for the dogma and I provided the allocution to explain how those same means of salvation may be brought to some in extraordinary ways in special circumstances. I will say, that I would not encourage another to presume the special circumstances applied to him–better to do what God has objectively commanded than to bank on subjective excuses.

Lumen Gentium is probably the best place to go for definitive Church teaching:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Especially Chapter 2 section 16

While this is no doubt an act of the Magisterium which enunciates aspects of this doctrine which has been consistently taught by the Church, it is not intended to be a definitive (“defining”) act. There is no lnaguage hinting that it is. Likewise, it does not provide an explanation as to the means by which such individuals might be saved, as does Ad Gentes or the CCC in various places (the allocution I linked to explains this in even more detail).

As such, I wouldn’t isolate it from the greater corpus of Catholic teaching on this matter and hold it out as the definitive authority on this topic. I also wouldn’t isolate it from those acts whicha ctually are definitive which establish the means necessary for salvation, such as those I cited in my previous post (which were cited by Bl. John Paul II in the allocution), as well as those that deal definitively with the fact that such means can be partaken of extraordinarily (e.g. St. Pius V’s Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus which definitively condemns the idea that the faith and charity sufficient for salvation cannot exist before actual baptism).

 

[coachkfan1]

The passage from the Catechism means what it says and is meant to be taken literally.

 

[clem456]

The passage from the Catechism means what it says and is meant to be taken literally.

I’m assuming this is the passage you are referring to:
It is meant to be taken literally, as a whole. Many like to take the first paragraph literally and exclusively, ie out of context.

VI. The Necessity of Baptism

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[clem456]

I didn’t meant to imply it was simple, which is why I linked to the audience which provided a short summary of the “finer points” as I said. I wanted to provide the Biblical and Magisterial foundation for the dogma and I provided the allocution to explain how those same means of salvation may be brought to some in extraordinary ways in special circumstances. I will say, that I would not encourage another to presume the special circumstances applied to him–better to do what God has objectively commanded than to bank on subjective excuses.

While this is no doubt an act of the Magisterium which enunciates aspects of this doctrine which has been consistently taught by the Church, it is not intended to be a definitive (“defining”) act. There is no lnaguage hinting that it is. Likewise, it does not provide an explanation as to the means by which such individuals might be saved, as does Ad Gentes or the CCC in various places (the allocution I linked to explains this in even more detail).

As such, I wouldn’t isolate it from the greater corpus of Catholic teaching on this matter and hold it out as the definitive authority on this topic. I also wouldn’t isolate it from those acts whicha ctually are definitive which establish the means necessary for salvation, such as those I cited in my previous post (which were cited by Bl. John Paul II in the allocution), as well as those that deal definitively with the fact that such means can be partaken of extraordinarily (e.g. St. Pius V’s Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus which definitively condemns the idea that the faith and charity sufficient for salvation cannot exist before actual baptism).

I guess I misread your post. I thought you were stating that a person must be an professing member of the visible Church on earth through physical baptism, to be saved.
My bad.

 

[Edward_G]

The Church can say whatever it wants to say. The founding document, which would be, the Gospel, gives us a clear indication of what salvation is and requires in the parable of the thief on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43).

If your attitude is that of the thief on the cross next to Jesus, you will be saved in the end. That’s why it’s in the last Gospel and is the last thing Jesus ever says to anyone before he dies. It is the final word on the subject.

If that were not so, God would not have had that story survive for milennia and get passed the editorial staff of the RCC.

Granted, Paul and Peter come along sometime later and start adding a bunch of requirements to salvation. After all, you can’t maintain power if everyone is off getting saved by Jesus themselves, but I think where there is disagreement, we have to go with the words of Jesus Christ and his Gospel writers. He would be the authority on matters of salvation, now wouldn’t he? :newidea:

 

[clem456]

The Church can say whatever it wants to say. The founding document, which would be, the Gospel, gives us a clear indication of what salvation is and requires in the parable of the thief on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43).

If your attitude is that of the thief on the cross next to Jesus, you will be saved in the end. That’s why it’s in the last Gospel and is the last thing Jesus ever says to anyone before he dies. It is the final word on the subject.

If that were not so, God would not have had that story survive for milennia and get passed the editorial staff of the RCC.

Granted, Paul and Peter come along sometime later and start adding a bunch of requirements to salvation. After all, you can’t maintain power if everyone is off getting saved by Jesus themselves, but I think where there is disagreement, we have to go with the words of Jesus Christ and his Gospel writers. He would be the authority on matters of salvation, now wouldn’t he? :newidea:

So your whole notion of salvation is based on one scripture passage?

 

[fix]

The Church can say whatever it wants to say. The founding document, which would be, the Gospel, gives us a clear indication of what salvation is and requires in the parable of the thief on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43).

If your attitude is that of the thief on the cross next to Jesus, you will be saved in the end. That’s why it’s in the last Gospel and is the last thing Jesus ever says to anyone before he dies. It is the final word on the subject.

If that were not so, God would not have had that story survive for milennia and get passed the editorial staff of the RCC.

Granted, Paul and Peter come along sometime later and start adding a bunch of requirements to salvation. After all, you can’t maintain power if everyone is off getting saved by Jesus themselves, but I think where there is disagreement, we have to go with the words of Jesus Christ and his Gospel writers. He would be the authority on matters of salvation, now wouldn’t he? :newidea:

How do you know the Gospel is true?

 

[Edward_G]

So your whole notion of salvation is based on one scripture passage?

Yes.

How do you know the Gospel is true?

I don’t. I believe the Gospels are true. But to break that down a bit:

I believe that the only thing which exists is God. Nothing else really exists. Everything else is just an image in the mind of God.

I believe that the substance of God is consciousness.

I believe that Jesus Christ is what a human being is like when they are fully formed. I believe that the whole purpose of a human being is to become Christ, that is: God conscious of Himself from inside His creation.

I believe the Gospels are an instruction manual for that in that they detail what appears to be the only person who has ever been Christ–Jesus Christ.

I believe that a great deal of our transformation into Christ comes after this lifetime. Thus, the thief on the Cross is very instructive. The thief came to see what Christ was, and he died putting his faith in that belief. That may be the best we can do, certianly the best I can do.

I may not be able to become Christ in this life, but I can at least take the first step and place my faith in Christ. I can at least learn what Christ means and say, “Yeah, I want to go that way.”

That’s the ABC’s of me, baby. :tiphat:

 

[fix]

I don’t. I believe the Gospels are true. But to break that down a bit:

I believe that the only thing which exists is God. Nothing else really exists. Everything else is just an image in the mind of God.

I believe that the substance of God is consciousness.

I believe that Jesus Christ is what a human being is like when they are fully formed. I believe that the whole purpose of a human being is to become Christ, that is: God conscious of Himself from inside His creation.

I believe the Gospels are an instruction manual for that in that they detail what appears to be the only person who has ever been Christ–Jesus Christ.

I believe that a great deal of our transformation into Christ comes after this lifetime. Thus, the thief on the Cross is very instructive. The thief came to see what Christ was, and he died putting his faith in that belief. That may be the best we can do, certianly the best I can do.

I may not be able to become Christ in this life, but I can at least take the first step and place my faith in Christ. I can at least learn what Christ means and say, “Yeah, I want to go that way.”

That’s the ABC’s of me, baby. :tiphat:

So, you believe the Gospel but not all of the Gospel?

 

[clem456]

Yes.

What about John 3:5?

 

[Edward_G]

What about John 3:5?

What about it?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Catechism 846 says “outside the church there is no salvation”

It says those who refuse to enter it or remain in it will not attain salvation, upon knowing it’s founded by God through Christ.

So, if I decide the Catholic church is not for me, as I am now in RCIA and thinking of dropping out, does that mean I’m going to Hell?!

I love Jesus and believe in Him, so why would I go to Hell for not becoming Catholic?!

Or, is the above passage not to be taken literally?

Articles on Salvation Outside the Church

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark P. Shea
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=121&ed=1

It Didn’t Go Out with Vatican II
The Church’s Position on Salvation outside the Church Is Unchanged
By Mark P. Shea
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea3.asp

NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH
By Father William G. Most
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Church can say whatever it wants to say. The founding document, which would be, the Gospel, gives us a clear indication of what salvation is and requires in the parable of the thief on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43).

If your attitude is that of the thief on the cross next to Jesus, you will be saved in the end. That’s why it’s in the last Gospel and is the last thing Jesus ever says to anyone before he dies. It is the final word on the subject.

If that were not so, God would not have had that story survive for milennia and get passed the editorial staff of the RCC.

Granted, Paul and Peter come along sometime later and start adding a bunch of requirements to salvation. After all, you can’t maintain power if everyone is off getting saved by Jesus themselves, but I think where there is disagreement, we have to go with the words of Jesus Christ and his Gospel writers. He would be the authority on matters of salvation, now wouldn’t he? :newidea:

Um…yeah…no.

Jesus established Peter as the authority in the Church on Earth knowing that He would be ascending to Heaven after His resurrection.

So, you are responsible for obeying the authority of the shepherd whom Jesus chose to care for His flock…Peter and his successors, the popes of the Catholic Church.

You can’t have Jesus apart from His body, the Church.