No Salvation Outside the Church

[ChristIsTheWay]

I’ve been trying to get a better understanding of this teaching. As I understand, someone invincibly ignorant may be saved outside the Church. I take that to mean someone is not told they are required to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved. What about someone who is told it is necessary to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved but sincerely does not believe that doctrine to be true? Can they be saved or are they damned? Does God only know? I’m specifically thinking of members of other Christian churches.

 

[buffalo]

I’ve been trying to get a better understanding of this teaching. As I understand, someone invincibly ignorant may be saved outside the Church. I take that to mean someone is not told they are required to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved. What about someone who is told it is necessary to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved but sincerely does not believe that doctrine to be true? Can they be saved or are they damned? Does God only know?

Work backward from this - if you find yourself in heaven you will be Catholic, and it will have come through the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church Christ founded for this very reason.

 

[DavidFilmer]

What about someone who is told it is necessary to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved but sincerely does not believe that doctrine to be true? Can they be saved or are they damned?

The Church has never taught how invincible ignorance works - only that it is possible. The Church has never said what sort of criteria it includes. Maybe only a few people have achieved salvation this way. Maybe nobody ever has. We just don’t know.

That’s why it is important to evangelize the world, offering Christian Baptism, which is 100% guaranteed to place you in a state of Grace. We know exactly how Baptism works, and we should never be satisfied that invincible ignorance will save those who are not Baptized. It might, or it might not, but Baptism works every time.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

The Church has never taught how invincible ignorance works - only that it is possible. The Church has never said what sort of criteria it includes. Maybe only a few people have achieved salvation this way. Maybe nobody ever has. We just don’t know.

That’s why it is important to evangelize the world, offering Christian Baptism, which is 100% guaranteed to place you in a state of Grace. We know exactly how Baptism works, and we should never be satisfied that invincible ignorance will save those who are not Baptized. It might, or it might not, but Baptism works every time.

What about baptized non-Catholic Christians?

 

[Ad_Orientem]

It depends on what you mean by “sincere.” Vatican II uses the phrase “through no fault of their own” (LG 16). It is possible to be seriously negligent in seeking out and learning the truth, and consequently to believe error. I don’t think such a person is necessarily excused by his ignorance, simply because he really believes the error.

 

[Gorgias]

What about baptized non-Catholic Christians?

Possible, through the grace of God.

We know a sure way to salvation, which includes the Church and sacraments. God isn’t limited by the Church, though – if He wills that a person enters heaven, then it will be so.

 

[grannymh]

I’ve been trying to get a better understanding of this teaching. As I understand, someone invincibly ignorant may be saved outside the Church. I take that to mean someone is not told they are required to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved. What about someone who is told it is necessary to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved but sincerely does not believe that doctrine to be true? Can they be saved or are they damned? Does God only know? I’m specifically thinking of members of other Christian churches.

No Salvation outside the Catholic Church means that there is only one God Who is Savior.

Jesus Christ, the only True God and True Man, established the Catholic Church as the normal means of living our life in anticipation of being with Him in eternal joy. Since Christ died for all, and since all people are called to the same destiny, Catholics hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. (Source: CCC 1260)

“Ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church” is not a cut and dried automatic formula which often appears on threads. Considering the complexity of the human mind, there could be a variety of factors contributing to a decision as to how best to seek God. Yes, God is the only One who understands a person’s soul.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

What I am to make of this from the Catechism:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[superdave69]

Possible, through the grace of God.

We know a sure way to salvation, which includes the Church and sacraments. God isn’t limited by the Church, though – if He wills that a person enters heaven, then it will be so.

Think about the thief on the cross,next to Christ.

 

[chimo]

I’ve been trying to get a better understanding of this teaching. As I understand, someone invincibly ignorant may be saved outside the Church. I take that to mean someone is not told they are required to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved. What about someone who is told it is necessary to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved but sincerely does not believe that doctrine to be true? Can they be saved or are they damned? Does God only know? I’m specifically thinking of members of other Christian churches.

St. Paul writes that the believer can sanctify the unbeliever. The Graces we receive from God can also go to other people. When you go to Mass you are entering the greatest force and power the world has ever known. It is the power of love incarnate. When we receive Jesus in Holy Communion (in a state of Grace) we are enabling God to dispense His Holy Spirit not only in our own lives but throughout the world as well. Not only these benefits are for the living but for the departed as well including all those souls still in Purgatory. This great act of love contained in Holy Communion has all the power to transform not only those who receive Him but also those who live in the world and are opened to His Graces. The Church then becomes salvation not only for her own but to those as St. Paul says are still unbelievers. God does this because you decided to receive Him in Holy Communion. You are helping God to dispence His Graces. Without your participation these Graces will not be available. So it is important to come to receive Him often so He can do His work on many others who are not in Church or even part of the Church.

 

[DavidFilmer]

What about baptized non-Catholic Christians?

Christian Baptism (even administered outside of the Catholic Faith) brings the recipient into a state of Grace. If this recipient falls into mortal sin, s/he is removed from this state. If the recipient is not Catholic then his/her recourse to sacramental Confession is significantly impaired.

Most protestants confer valid Christian Baptism, so most protestants are actually “saved” at one point in their lives (even if they do not personally associate their Baptism with their salvation). The question then becomes whether or not they are able to remain in a state of Grace.

Is it easy or difficult for a person of good will to fall into mortal sin? The Church has no answer to that question.

 

[Michael_Allen]

I’ve been trying to get a better understanding of this teaching. As I understand, someone invincibly ignorant may be saved outside the Church. I take that to mean someone is not told they are required to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved. What about someone who is told it is necessary to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved but sincerely does not believe that doctrine to be true? Can they be saved or are they damned? Does God only know? I’m specifically thinking of members of other Christian churches.

If we see the church as the body of Christ (Romans 7:4, 1 Corinthians 12:27), and that baptism is the outward sign of entering into sharing in the death and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 6:3-4), then I think it mistaken to believe that “No salvation outside of the Church” means salvation is limited only to Roman Catholic Church. I think scripture is clear that salvation is through joining with Christ with us living in Him and Him living in us (John 15:4) - the Body of Christ is not limited by man-made divisions in the communion of the faithful.

 

[Genesis315]

I share this a lot, but I think it is one of the best explanations of the possibility of the salvation of non-Catholics and how that relates to the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church. It is an allocution from Pope Bl. John Paul II:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

 

[Genesis315]

If we see the church as the body of Christ (Romans 7:4, 1 Corinthians 12:27), and that baptism is the outward sign of entering into sharing in the death and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 6:3-4), then I think it mistaken to believe that “No salvation outside of the Church” means salvation is limited only to Roman Catholic Church. I think scripture is clear that salvation is through joining with Christ with us living in Him and Him living in us (John 15:4) - the Body of Christ is not limited by man-made divisions in the communion of the faithful.

I would just clarify that it does indeed mean salvation is limited to the Catholic Church, which is the Body of Christ. That’s the whole point of the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church (the Church referenced here is the Catholic Church). What is possible is that persons may belong to the Catholic Church in a way sufficent for salvation, but which does not make one a visible member. It’s a subtle but important distinction. The one Church of Christ, which is the Body of Christ, cannot be identified with anything other than the Catholic Church–it can only be said to subsist in the Catholic Church, nowhere else.

 

[Disciple_I_Hope]

ChristisTheWay, thank you for opening this thread. The question of “salvation outside the Catholic Church” is one that I consider many times.

I think–I cannot verify this–that the statement, “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church,” is a pre-Vatican II statement. I was taught this in my gradeschool and highschool days. Although the priests and nuns who taught me might deny using these exact words, it is the picture I had in my mind. I truly believed when I was younger that all those who were not Catholics were condemned to the eternal fires.

However, I knew then and now know many non-Catholic Christians who more fervently “live the Gospel” than a lot of Catholics I knew and now know. Doctrinally, how does this work? The answer never satisfied me on a spiritual level. Intellectually it made sense, but I couldn’t internalize it. That answer has been bandied about in this thread. Vague phrases like “through no fault of their own,” “God in His loving mercy,” “it doesn’t seem reasonable, but God can…we just don’t know.” As I said these all are clear intellectually for me, and really can’t be argued, but they didn’t satisfy me in my heart.

I have begun to read the Vatican II documents, and discovered the concept of salvation and Church just last night. Based on what I now know, I would say that, “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church,” does not exist as a teaching or doctrine. In Chapter II, “ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD,” of the “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church–Lumen Gentium,” paragraphs 13-16 deal with salvation.

Paragraph 13 starts with these words.

All men are called to belong to the new people of God. Wherefore this
people, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole
world and must exist in all ages, so that the decree of God’s will may be
fulfilled. In the beginning God made human nature one and decreed that all His
children, scattered as they were, would finally be gathered together as one.

and ends with these.

All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are
related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ,
and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to
salvation.

Chapters 14, !5 and 16 sequentially address those categories of the last quoted sentence: Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ and the whole of mankind.

The first words of Paragraph 15 address, I think, your question, ChristisTheWay.

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who,
being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not
profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the
successor of Peter.

As I read these paragraphs in depth, it is this “linking” and being defined as “the people of God” that provides the route to salvation.

It appears that the doctrine of the Church, as expressed by the Second Vatican Council in it’s self-redefinition of the the Church, is that the “people of God” receive salvation.

Paragraph 16 addresses “those who have not yet received the Gospel” and says that these are “related in various ways” to the people of God. I found it interesting that this paragraph is the only one that contains the words “through no fault of their own and do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church.” These words, or some of them, have been used to address the salvation of non-Catholic Christians, and yet Vatican II used them referring to non-Christians.

The paragraphs in CCC which address the Church and salvation–776, 780 and 816 (I used the index heading of “Salvation” and went to the paragraphs referenced under “Church as…of,”) and Pope John Paul II’s remarks, linked above, either paraphrase or reiterate “Lumen Gentium.”

As a note to this, Paragraph 15 contains some “fire and brimstone” concerning Catholics who leave the Church and those “who have discovered the Church” and refuse to join. I was amazed at the “harshness” of these words compared to the “gentleness” of the entire discussion.

ChristisThe Way, I have attempted to present what the Church teaches. I apologize if I slipped in my opinion or missed something. Once again, thanks for your question.

Grace, peace and love.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I share this a lot, but I think it is one of the best explanations of the possibility of the salvation of non-Catholics and how that relates to the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church. It is an allocution from Pope Bl. John Paul II:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

From the article:

It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her.

Does this include Protestants who are told of the necessity of joining the Catholic Church yet sincerely do not believe it? I’m thinking of great examples of Christians like CS Lewis and William Lane Craig. Surely these great men knew the Church’s teaching in this matter and yet did not accept it. Am I to believe they are in hell or will be in hell?

 

[Sirach2]

From the article:

Does this include Protestants who are told of the necessity of joining the Catholic Church yet sincerely do not believe it? I’m thinking of great examples of Christians like CS Lewis and William Lane Craig. Surely these great men knew the Church’s teaching in this matter and yet did not accept it. Am I to believe they are in hell or will be in hell?

That highlight is key to understanding invincible ignorance. These persons have not received the gift of faith to accept that the doctrine they read about or heard about is actually true. Until the Holy Spirit convicts them, despite every effort they have made to understand our faith, they will remain unconvinced and “invincibly ignorant” through no fault of their own. God alone sees the heart.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

That highlight is key to understanding invincible ignorance. These persons have not received the gift of faith to accept that the doctrine they read about or heard about is actually true. Until the Holy Spirit convicts them, despite every effort they have made to understand our faith, they will remain unconvinced and “invincibly ignorant” through no fault of their own. God alone sees the heart.

Thank you.

 

[Gorgias]

I think–I cannot verify this–that the statement, “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church,” is a pre-Vatican II statement. I was taught this in my gradeschool and highschool days. Although the priests and nuns who taught me might deny using these exact words, it is the picture I had in my mind. I truly believed when I was younger that all those who were not Catholics were condemned to the eternal fires.

DIsciple,

Yes, ‘extra ecclesiam nulla salus’ is certainly a teaching with centuries of history under its belt. Yet, it says ‘there is no salvation’, not ‘no one is saved’; that is, it does not assert that no one but Catholics can attain to heaven. That may have been the way it was taught, but I think that it’s critical to keep in mind the notion of ‘intended audience’.

You mention Lumen gentium, and this is an excellent jumping-off point. In paragraph 14, what does it say? Does it suggest that Catholics may leave the Church and still be saved? I would say that it does not. So, in the context in which Catholics are the audience, the application of ‘extra ecclesiam’ means exactly what you were taught: if you’re Catholic and you leave the Church, you risk your eternal salvation.

However, as you note, when the audience is other than Catholics (cf LG 15 and 16), ‘extra ecclesiam’ means something different: it means that, where non-Catholics and non-Christians are concerned, salvation is still possible – this salvation, nonetheless, still comes from the Church which Jesus founded. Therefore, even for non-Christians, ‘extra ecclesiam’ still holds!

In other words, ‘no salvation outside the Church’ is a doctrine that is at least as old (and probably older than!) you suspect. However, this doesn’t mean that it isn’t still a valid expression of the faith: it is, in a very real way, still taught by the Church!

 

[Disciple_I_Hope]

Thank you, Gorgias, for your post. It sent me down an avenue of thought and research that I truly enjoy. Allow me to share some of the results with you and the rest of the forum and then discuss this phrase in the “modern” Church as defined in Vatican II.

The sentence, “Salus extra ecclesiam non est,” was originally penned by St. Cyprian of Carthage (3rd century) in one of his letters about baptismal heresy–way off topic for this thread. It was first used “officially” by the Church in the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215. The exact statement was, “There is but one universal Church of the faithful outside which no one is saved.” Subsequently, there is a litany of defenses and explanations of this specifically up to and including Pope Pius XII, who was pope when I was in gradeschool.

This is the point at which my remarks may be off the topic of this thread. It they generate a discussion, it might be best to start a new one.

The original Latin does not say “outside” the Church. That would be extra ecclesia. Used in this sense, it conveys the concept of “beyond.” It might be subtle but it’s real. The problem, yes I use that word specifically, is the acceptance of the word “outside.” The earlier uses, according to my research, fully incorporate the concepts you expressed–beyond the faith in Jesus Christ. But as we approached current times, the translation more closely approached “outside the formal boundaries of Catholicism.”

In his book, “The Theological Aspects of Vatican II,” then Father Ratzinger indicated that one of the goals of the Council was to redefine the Church as something alive and not something to be defended; to define the Church as “something,” rather than “not something.” I can attest to the pre-Council picture that he presents. Many times, and sadly in retrospect, I have said that I was taught to defend my faith, not to live it.

“Lument Gentium” quite clearly says that it is the “people of God” who are called to salvation through Jesus Christ; that all men are linked in this unity of catholicity–the concept, not the “official” Church. It specifically addresses the place of “other Churches.” The Council discusses this in more detail in “Unitatis Redintegratio,” but I have not yet read it and am loathe to quote from it because I want my thoughts to be in context.

You are right in your statement that this teaching has been around for quite awhile and your discussion of its interpretation was “right on.” I wanted to post my remarks because many times we participate in what I call a “sound byte” society. This particular “byte” is really not quite in line of current teaching as laid out by the Council.

What I have said about the Council’s teaching is true about outside the boundaries of the Church except for some."[Those]…knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." And concerning those who do not “persevere in charity” the Council says, “If they fail moreover to respond to that grace [the grace of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church] in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.” Now that is not gentle.

St. Augustine summed all of this up very nicely, “How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!” (Homilies on John, 45, 12)

Thanks to all who read this for their patience. I felt like I had to go to this length, because many times we will throw phrases and excerpts around and then end up defending them. Beside, I like learning things and then sharing.

Grace, peace and love