No Salvation Outside the Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter JMJCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
What if it’s a matter of conscience? I look at the other Protestants who love God so much and are out evangelizing, handing out Gospels and doing missions and I can’t help but think that the Holy Spirit is doing great things in me and other Protestants world wide.

I love God so much, I really do. I believe I’m a part of His Church that He established but I do not call myself Catholic. Am I condemned if I’m wrong? If there’s one thing God knows in my heart it’s that I don’t want to screw this up but I love my Church, I love my God and I love what my Church is doing for non-Christians everywhere, bringing them to Christ. I feel like God has brought me to my Church.

I pray that God never rejects me, and I pray that I’m not rejecting Him. I pray this so, so very often.
 
What if it’s a matter of conscience? I look at the other Protestants who love God so much and are out evangelizing, handing out Gospels and doing missions and I can’t help but think that the Holy Spirit is doing great things in me and other Protestants world wide.

I love God so much, I really do. I believe I’m a part of His Church that He established but I do not call myself Catholic. Am I condemned if I’m wrong? If there’s one thing God knows in my heart it’s that I don’t want to screw this up but I love my Church, I love my God and I love what my Church is doing for non-Christians everywhere, bringing them to Christ. I feel like God has brought me to my Church.

I pray that God never rejects me, and I pray that I’m not rejecting Him. I pray this so, so very often.
I think you may be an example of what I was trying to get at earlier. You might know what the CC teaches about itself. But you don’t believe the Catholic Church is the One and Only True Church. You believe I’m assuming, correct me if I’m wrong, that His Church is His body of believers. So you can’t in good conscience say you know the CC is the One and Only, even though you might know the CC teaches that it is. Therefore I’m thinking Catholic teaching is that you’re an example of someone who can be saved even if they don’t enter or remain. God I would say understands your conscience and knows your heart I would say. But the Catholics here can correct me if I’m wrong about CC teaching.
 
I Therefore I’m thinking Catholic teaching is that you’re an example of someone who can be saved even if they don’t enter or remain. God I would say understands your conscience and knows your heart I would say. But the Catholics here can correct me if I’m wrong about CC teaching.
Yes. Can be saved.

But without the sacraments it’s harder.
 
Yes. Can be saved.

But without the sacraments it’s harder.
PRmerger, if it’s harder, in CC teaching then, are the sacraments more important than showing love for Christ by serving Him in the ways dronald expressed that Protestants do?
 
PRmerger, if it’s harder, in CC teaching then, are the sacraments more important than showing love for Christ by serving Him in the ways dronald expressed that Protestants do?
No. There is no teaching about what’s “more important” regarding sacraments or showing love for Christ.
 
PRmerger, if it’s harder, in CC teaching then, are the sacraments more important than showing love for Christ by serving Him in the ways dronald expressed that Protestants do?
If I may cut in this dance, in Orthodoxy there is no separation of things. Everything is related, its not about one matter is more important than the other. Getting baptized is as essential as feeding the hungry or caring for the sick. And both are as essential as financially contributing to your church to keep them operational. There is no division, there is no dichotomy, there is only synergy. It’s like asking if one of the Trinity is more important than the other, if we can have one or two but not all three. It doesn’t work that way.
 
If the Church says Christ died for all… But some through no fault of their own might not know Him before they die. And of those who do, no one but the Lord knows where their heart is at their moment of death. So as PRmerger and concretecamper said, they leave it to the Lord. But whoever is saved the CC says it is thru Christ and His Church. If these are the things the CC is saying, how is that heretical? I would think Christ is capable of saving someone who was never taught about Him thru no fault of their own or anyone whose heart in the end warrants salvation. So I must agree with PRmerger and concretecamper, it is best left to the Lord.
I do agree that it is up to God’s judgement. Christ is capable of anything, but that doesn’t mean he’ll do anything. So far, Jesus has never said, “I will save those who don’t know of me or don’t believe in me.” Does that necessarily mean He won’t save them? No, as I said, He’s capable of anything. But if we assume that a person can be saved without Christ, using non-Scriptural theories and speculations, we are doing a disservice to God (presuming to know His plans on things he has not taught us) and to those who have not accepted Christ (by not giving them a chance to hear of Him, because why bother?)

The whole doctrine of the salvation of non-Christian has again and again thrown people into confusion, because it all boils down to one question eventually: why evangelize, then? Aren’t we doing a soul a favor when we leave them in ignorance of the Gospel, so when they arrive before God it’s totally not their fault that they did not accept Jesus? Why put people in that risk? And the answer I always get is, because God told us to evangelize regardless. But that makes God nonsensical and petty, that He would command us to do pointless tasks just to see us run around and perform them. It’s like when your boss sends you out for coffee he has no intention of drinking.

That’s why I think such speculation should be avoided altogether rather than made official. It only causes a flurry of confusion concerning the role of the Church, of the Gospel, and of Christ. There are a thousand definitions of what “may” means, along with “invincible”, “vincible”, and “ignorance”. If that would’ve warranted major theological theory and acceptance, don’t you think it would’ve been mentioned explicitly in the Bible?

And tbh I find it rather annoying that the church could ascribe to such a doctrine while at the same time vociferously promoting its own views on morality in public discourse and politics. If I were gay and had a same-sex marriage, and believed I was doing the right thing, who are you to say I can’t, if I can be saved anyway? Why have all these rules and obligations if, at the end of the day, I’m saved anyway? Again, I’m told this is because as members of the church, more is expected of us, which brings us back to why evangelizing would be a bad thing, since being a Christian means accepting a particular moral compass that many people would not find easy to conform to. But not their fault, right?

If one takes the certain position often expounded, the only soul that is definitively bound for hell is the one that KNOWS that Christ is necessary to salvation yet openly and consciously rejects Him nonetheless. This is essentially universalism, since who would willingly damn himself?

To say “Well, maybe Jesus gives them one last chance at death” often ignores the fact that that is a very big, fat MAYBE. God has never told us that that happens, so we can’t assume it does, even if it makes us feel more comfortable with the world or “what I would do if I were God”.
 
This topic has troubled me for years. I too cannot get my heart around “extra ecclesium nullas salus”. I’ve read what popes have declared and I have also listened to more modern interpretations. I will leave it to God. However, I want to advance the following perspective.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
I believe that you perhaps have been lured into the arguments offered by groups that claim to be roman catholics but in fact that do not belong to the Catholic Church. Most of them have been converts from protestantism, not craddle catholics that have lived the faith to love it.

Popes have been clear that salvation is possible outside the Church, even early fathers. Salvation is a gift we do not deserve so WHO are we to deny salvation to others presuming a prerrogative that only belongs to God?

Pope Pius IX, tells this to his cardinals in QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE :
  1. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.THERE ARE, OF COURSE, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
The issue then is this: As far as we humans know, there no other method visible or known to main revealed by God that lead us into a path of santification/justification. But God, who can see in the invisible, the unknown, the will of the hearts of those who are searching and willing to accept the truth can bring those to His triumphant Universal Community.

So our faith allows this to happen that is left entirely up to God, we simply do have not at disposal any other revealed means than the sacraments.

Just remember Cornelius! Are we even to think that someone without delay (a catechumen) while seeking salvation through baptism finds death is dammed?

In the goodness of main that remained after the fall the process Justification starts much earlier in time than baptism. So because of this the Council of trent uses the word OR (not AND) between words “baptism” and “its desire”
 
The whole doctrine of the salvation of non-Christian has again and again thrown people into confusion, because it all boils down to one question eventually: why evangelize, then?
Because Truth matters. And saving Truth matters most.
Aren’t we doing a soul a favor when we leave them in ignorance of the Gospel, so when they arrive before God it’s totally not their fault that they did not accept Jesus?
No. Because while the invincibly ignorant may be saved, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are. If they are living a life steeped in sin, even if they are unaware that, say child sacrifice is a horrific offense against God, then salvation is really, really difficult for them, right?
 
That’s why I think such speculation should be avoided altogether rather than made official. It only causes a flurry of confusion concerning the role of the Church, of the Gospel, and of Christ. There are a thousand definitions of what “may” means, along with “invincible”, “vincible”, and “ignorance”. If that would’ve warranted major theological theory and acceptance, don’t you think it would’ve been mentioned explicitly in the Bible?
I think if you apply the above concept to, say, the Trinity, you’ll have your answer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top