No Salvation Outside the Church?

[Peter_J]

Hi and welcome to the forum

Since you say,

Yet at the same time, **I felt no real connection to any church. ** I’ve prayed on it; I ask God to guide me where He wants me to be but as much as some would want (some friends, some family) I honestly, in my heart of hearts, feel closer to God than I ever was when I went to Mass every Sunday.

a good first step might be simply “going to church”. I use the word “going” advisedly, because I’ve known people who say “I go to a Blank church, but I don’t consider myself Blank” (for example, I’ve heard “I go to a Methodist church, but I don’t consider myself Methodist”). Then, after “going to church” for a while, you might consider whether you should “belong” to a particular church, e.g. the Catholic Church.

 

[Brandall]

This is the way I understand it and at least how I explain it to my self

Who’s in heaven
According to the Catholic Church not only Catholics go to heaven but only Catholics are in heaven. Along with the fact since jesus started the Catholic Church it is the normal means of salvation
This is a paraphrase but sums up no salvation outside the church

Holy Moley! That is absolutely wrong. When I was taught my catechism over 70 years ago, even before Vatican II, the nuns taught that anyone can go to heaven if they live a good life. The nuns taught us in the eighth grade that if someone lived in a cave all his life and was never exposed to the name of Jesus Christ or his teachings, but lived a good life according to the dictates of their conscience, he or she would go to heaven, because it says in the Old Testament that when God made man he wrote the Ten Commandments on the fleshly tablets of men’s hearts, which is in essence, your conscious. Now, this doesn’t mean a Catholic Christian is free to ignore the teachings of the Church if you have been given the great gift of baptism. It just means that a person without exposure to the Church, through no fault of there own, has a path to salvation provided by a merciful God.

I recommend you go to Google and type in “There is no salvation outside the Church,” for a thorough explanations of the subject.

Moonbug, I think you’re misunderstanding what Adamski wrote.

The way that was explained to me was that many will be in heaven. Some of them attended the Catholic Church on earth, some Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc. But, once they’re in heaven, they will be catholic because it is the universal church. Therefore, there will only be Catholics in heaven.

I’ve also had it explained differently that only Catholics go to heaven. That comes by the fact that everyone that has been baptized is Catholic but not all of them are in full communion with Rome. No one is saying that they won’t get to heaven because they’re not in full communion with Rome but it is saying that they are Catholic. Therefore, there will only be Catholics in heaven.

Both of these are saying the same thing and both of them are sly ways of putting it.

I’m personally unsure of how I feel about the teaching that someone that has never heard of Jesus can be saved. There is a lot to ingest at this time and I haven’t yet reached a comfort level with this.

 

[believerdoc]

The catechism is the best place to get the correct technical answer.

But I think analogies introduce new ways of thinking well. Without water, you will die of thirst in very short order. So it is with Grace for your soul. God is the ONLY source of Grace in the world. In the person of Christ, God came into the world in order to save us. Grace and water…

A desert area had NO source of water for hundreds of miles and so was uninhabitable. A man can and constructed a fountain that would draw water from deep in the earth and splash it into a pool so that people could have water. The fountain worked for centuries and the people came and were nourished. But as people often do, these people came to quarreling among one another. The fountain pool seeped water into the earth and at times and in some places, that water bubbled to the surface away from the pool and also nourished those who found it there. But those locations came and went with weather and temperature. They could not always be relied upon. The man had intended for ALL the people to come and drink from the fountain pool. Those who drink from the ground seeps perhaps think they’ve found another way, but it really isn’t. The fountain is STILL the source of that water. And the fountain is reliable, always pure, and honors the intention of its builder. Why NOT go drink from the fountain? Just because some of the people there are irksome?

The builder, of course, is Christ. The fountain is the church. The seeps are all the other places in the world where people who are unaware or are misinformed about the church sometimes also find Grace. They aren’t alternate SOURCES of Grace. Just alternate places where the one source of Grace are sometimes manifested.

The only concern with this analogy is the the source of the Grace. Christ is the only source of the Grace not the church.

 

[benjohnson]

I’m personally unsure of how I feel about the teaching that someone that has never heard of Jesus can be saved. There is a lot to ingest at this time and I haven’t yet reached a comfort level with this.

It’s a mercy that God decides isn’t it? I’d condemn myself if left to my own devices.

 

[Brandall]

It’s a mercy that God decides isn’t it? I’d condemn myself if left to my own devices.

Absolutely, it would be the decision of the creator. It’s an unclear doctrine and the Catechism uses the word “may” and not the word “will”.

It does seem like it would be the merciful thing to do but it’s unclear as to what God will do. Too often I’ve seen people put that forth as a doctrine that has been proved. The Catholic church, as in a lot of things, is muddy about it.

 

[ffg]

Firstly, I apologize if this in the wrong place. If it is, please move it. I’ve also read some of the other threads on the topic - but I missed if they answered what I’m asking.

Growing up Catholic, I’ve heard this a lot. When my cousin married a Lutheran girl and converted for her, my aunt prayed every day that he would come back because she was worried that his soul would be eternally damned…

Anyway, as I grew I began having doubts. For a long time, I considered myself agnostic, dabbled in Buddhism, and searched for truth. It wasn’t until my mid-20’s, when I started reading on anarchism (including some of the ideas of Dorthy Day and Ammon Hennacy) did I once again feel the calling of God and Jesus Christ…

Yet at the same time, I felt no real connection to any church. I’ve prayed on it; I ask God to guide me where He wants me to be but as much as some would want (some friends, some family) I honestly, in my heart of hearts, feel closer to God than I ever was when I went to Mass every Sunday. Am I wrong in this, destined to Hell - or will God judge me on His own?

Welcome to CAF!

God will judge you and me, but great is that He left instruction.

We are judged in our life, in work or sports against a foundation, be it history or rules.

God judges using a foundation (rules).

A child is not tested on subject matter they did not learn, God’s foundation for judgement is available to be known.

If we know there is foundation on which to be judged and ignore it. That doesn’t equate to a ‘destiny’, because God’s mercy is great.

But we do know a teaching in the foundation is that the wage of sin is death.

Thus, since we are sinners, we can’t assume mercy is guaranteed.

Therefore, learning the rules and living by them is recommended.

 

[Moonbug]

Moonbug, I think you’re misunderstanding what Adamski wrote.

The way that was explained to me was that many will be in heaven. Some of them attended the Catholic Church on earth, some Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc. But, once they’re in heaven, they will be catholic because it is the universal church. Therefore, there will only be Catholics in heaven.

I’ve also had it explained differently that only Catholics go to heaven. That comes by the fact that everyone that has been baptized is Catholic but not all of them are in full communion with Rome. No one is saying that they won’t get to heaven because they’re not in full communion with Rome but it is saying that they are Catholic. Therefore, there will only be Catholics in heaven.

Both of these are saying the same thing and both of them are sly ways of putting it.

I’m personally unsure of how I feel about the teaching that someone that has never heard of Jesus can be saved. There is a lot to ingest at this time and I haven’t yet reached a comfort level with this.

I think we are wrestling over semantics here. “A rose by any other name is still a rose.” It’s this fine tuning of terms by us Catholics that tends to put Protestant" teeth on edge. It does have the ring of elitism. Followers of Christ were called Christian before they were called Catholic. During the great schism, the Eastern Churches took on the term “Orthodox” and the Western Church, Catholic. Yet, they were both still Christian. And please remember that the dioceses in the Eastern Churches were up and running propositions long before those in the Western Church. Finally, Vatican II stated emphatically that when one is baptized Christian in the name of Christ, he is an equal member of the Church. If you went to the 12 Apostles and used the term Catholic, they would be at a loss. If you used the term Christian, they would be equally bewildered. But if you used the term “follower of Christ,” you would be understood.

Every human God has created is loved and cherished. He/She tells us through scripture that he considers man his greatest creation. There are no “second class” or “throw-away” human souls. My apology to Adamski if I took his post too literally. :flowers:

 

[ffg]

Welcome to CAF!

God will judge you and me, but great is that He left instruction.

We are judged in our life, in work or sports against a foundation, be it history or rules.

God judges using a foundation (rules).

A child is not tested on subject matter they did not learn, God’s foundation for judgement is available to be known.

If we know there is foundation on which to be judged and ignore it. That doesn’t equate to a ‘destiny’, because God’s mercy is great.

But we do know a teaching in the foundation is that the wage of sin is death.

Thus, since we are sinners, we can’t assume mercy is guaranteed.

Therefore, learning the rules and living by them is recommended.

I would like to add some clarity to this post, I appreciated the OP yesterday, but had little time.

I hope it seems reasonable to link that a judgement of any kind would be first based on the ‘judged’ person’s knowledge of what to learn and know. Secondly, on their ability and motivation to understand and do what is taught by God timely. Lastly, on the outcome of the effort.

I just had an incident occur with one of my kids at school where there was a mistake by my daughter in studying the wrong thing for a test. She was all bent out of shape about taking a test she did not know the information on.

When we were honest with the teacher, the teacher’s first reaction was similar to her parents earlier reaction - ‘What’s the point in testing you on what you do not know / did not do, not by way of lack of effort, but by mistake’.

Then the teacher asked what she did study, which was the next week’s work, and the teacher was happy she had a jump on the information.

The original test was then scheduled for the next day.

The key difference between this scenario and our future judgement is that the test will not be rescheduled.

Thus, to those who are in the know, it is their responsibility (not choice - ‘to whom much is given…’ ) to make sure those not in the know understand what to learn and do, to be ready.

In order to link ‘wage of sin is death’ with ‘we are sinners loved by God, desired by God to be with Him’.

From this website’s perspective, you could ride into CC teaching’s on sacraments, confession and it’s reason for creation and effects being key here for this link.

 

[Reuben_J]

The way that was explained to me was that many will be in heaven. Some of them attended the Catholic Church on earth, some Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc. But, once they’re in heaven, they will be catholic because it is the universal church. Therefore, there will only be Catholics in heaven.

I’ve also had it explained differently that only Catholics go to heaven. That comes by the fact that everyone that has been baptized is Catholic but not all of them are in full communion with Rome. No one is saying that they won’t get to heaven because they’re not in full communion with Rome but it is saying that they are Catholic. Therefore, there will only be Catholics in heaven.

I’m personally unsure of how I feel about the teaching that someone that has never heard of Jesus can be saved.

This is about just right. The Church possesses the “fullness of the means of salvation” (CCC 830). Each “particular church” (diocese) is catholic (see CCC 833) through its union with Rome (see CCC 834). Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” (CCC 838)

“Outside the Church there is no salvation” – “All salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His body …” (CCC 846). It explains how this seemingly exclusively claim should be understood positively.

Those “… with a sincere heart, and moved by grace … may achieve eternal salvation.” (CCC847)

 

[manualman]

The only concern with this analogy is the the source of the Grace. Christ is the only source of the Grace not the church.

This would be an devastating objection if catholics thought that they had built the church and could take credit for it. But we understand Christ to have established the church as the means by which He delivers Grace to the world.

In the analogy, the fountain is not the source of the water, it is the means by which the builder delivered the water to the surface.

That’s one of the fundamental communication problems catholics and protestants have, I think. Protestants tend to think of the church as the sum of its members (congregational thinking). Catholics think of the church as the Kingdom of God.

 

[stewstew03]

The only concern with this analogy is the the source of the Grace. Christ is the only source of the Grace not the church.

But Christ is in the Church, so I’m not sure I understand your distinction.

 

[Brendan_64]

But Christ is in the Church, so I’m not sure I understand your distinction.

Christ is in all creation. The Church is but vehicle created by Christ to lead mankind to Salvation. The Church is a tool used by God. The Church is a means by which God delivers His Grace. The Church isn’t the source of Grace.

 

[stewstew03]

Christ is in all creation. The Church is but vehicle created by Christ to lead mankind to Salvation. The Church is a tool used by God. The Church is a means by which God delivers His Grace. The Church isn’t the source of Grace.

I don’t think anyone is claiming the means of grace is greater than Gracious Creator.

 

[Brendan_64]

I don’t think anyone is claiming the means of grace is greater than Gracious Creator.

But claiming the Church to be the source of Grace is claiming that the Church is actually more than a means of delivering Grace. There is only one source of Grace and that is God.

 

[stewstew03]

But claiming the Church to be the source of Grace is claiming that the Church is actually more than a means of delivering Grace. There is only one source of Grace and that is God.

Again, I don’t think anyone is making that claim.

 

[manualman]

But claiming the Church to be the source of Grace is claiming that the Church is actually more than a means of delivering Grace. There is only one source of Grace and that is God.

I’ve never seen a fountain that CREATED water. Have you?

 

[stewstew03]

I’ve never seen a fountain that CREATED water. Have you?

Your analogy was on point; others have unfortunately created a straw man…

 

[concretecamper]

In heaven, no one can argue that you will believe all the truths that Christ taught. You will not believe only those you believed while living on earth…YOU WILL BELIEVE THEM ALL! So from a RCC perspective…you must he catholic to enter heaven. So the say only RCs can enter heaven is not a slap to other Christians, but a necessity.

 

[Peter_J]

In heaven, no one can argue that you will believe all the truths that Christ taught. You will not believe only those you believed while living on earth…YOU WILL BELIEVE THEM ALL! So from a RCC perspective…you must he catholic to enter heaven. So the say only RCs can enter heaven is not a slap to other Christians, but a necessity.

I agree it isn’t a slap. Basically all Christians can agree that in heaven we will all believe all true doctrines and not believe any false doctrine – although we disagree on which are which.

 

[Reuben_J]

I agree it isn’t a slap. Basically all Christians can agree that in heaven we will all believe all true doctrines and not believe any false doctrine – although we disagree on which are which.

It is obvious, is it not?

Hopefully, the question of the thread has been answered.