no salvation outside the church?

[steve_b]

Agreed; yet, that wasn’t your claim: you claimed that those who are ‘in’ the Church “can celebrate all the sacraments in the Catholic Church” (putatively, in order to demonstrate that an inability to celebrate a sacrament is evidence of being ‘out’ of the Church). I demonstrated that your premise was faulty: not all who are ‘in’ the Church can celebrate all the sacraments (and therefore, the inability to participate in a sacrament is not evidence of being ‘out’ of the Church).

Irrelevant: we’re talking about your assertion of ‘in’ and ‘out’ of the Church – there are many who are (by your definition) ‘in’ the Church who are ‘out of grace with God’. The two notions are not dependent on each other,per se.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. However, it sure seems like you’re attempting to use 1791 without appealing to its context – that personal responsibility for ignorance is due to “tak[ing] little trouble to find out what is true and good, or … through the habit of committing sin.” Since you assert that these two cases are not what you’re claiming, then you’re cherry-picking 1791 in order to make it say what you want it to say, without allowing it to speak on its own behalf. Does this mean that I misunderstand the CCC? How silly…

My mistake. You showed where you’re consciously mischaracterizing it.

In all seriousness, though: you provided this citation to the CCC, and I’m simply asking you to address the fact that this paragraph provides two conditions which are present if one’s behavior applies to the assertions being made therein. You have said that you are not asserting that either condition holds. If the conditions aren’t met, and yet you still assert that the assertion holds, what other conclusion can I draw than that you are attempting to cherry-pick the CCC and misuse it through context-free proof-texting?

I’m sorry – did I misquote you? No… I quoted what you wrote. Did I mischaracterize what you’re saying? I don’t think so. The issue at hand was my assertion that the criterion of ‘full knowledge’ for mortal sin is not one that can be categorically applied to all Protestants; when you asked whether I “assume that with all protestants”, I replied that I do not, but that your statements have the appearance of painting all Protestants with the same broad stroke. (When you do that, of course, it’s easy to disprove your assertions: if you claim something for all, I only have to show it fails for one or some in order to refute your claim.) You claim that you don’t have to restate your ‘caveats’ in each post, but I demonstrated where your ‘caveats’ seem to implicate all Protestants. That’s not “quoting you with an agenda”, that’s asking you to be judged according to your own words. If that’s uncomfortable for you… if that feels like an ‘agenda’… well, then perhaps you might ask yourself whether a re-evaluation of your position is in order…!

No problem. (You should really stop lobbing these softballs at me; they’re too easy to hit out of the park. )

Augustine is talking about people whose parents are formal heretics, and who have either witnessed their rejection of the Church or at least have been being taught by them subsequent to their sin. Plausibly, then, the bulk (if not all of) their family is Catholic, and their parents’ estrangement from the Church is visible to them as such. For these children of formal heretics, then, Augustine hopes for re-establishment of communion with the Church.

Yet, this is not applicable to use today, per se. We’re not talking about folks whose families converted to Protestantism in the last few years; rather, we’re talking in general about Protestants: that is, about folks who have been Protestants – and their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents have been Protestants – for generations!

Agreed. Yet, the difference is between those who, in their heresy, left the Church, and those who never were in full communion with the Church. Critical difference, there!

Agreed. The ECFs are a valuable source of information. I’m not claiming that their words are without value; just that the way you’re using their words, to condemn all Protestants who live today, is without merit.

I stand by what I said. I conclude some people just like to argue.

 

[Gorgias]

I stand by what I said. I conclude some people just like to argue.

Given the length of this discussion, I think that both of us can be accused of argumentativeness!

Seriously, though: it seems that we’re both ‘within’ the Church, but approaching the question from opposite vantage points. To identify whether we’re listening or just shouting at each other, it might be interesting to see how each of us would describe the other’s argument…

 

[crochet_lady]

You’ve been having an ‘interesting’ discussion – if I may ask a question – isn’t the topic about salvation? What salvation Is?! How Is a person ‘saved’? What is a person being ‘saved’ From? An example – 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Romans 10: 9 & 10.

 

[Gorgias]

You’ve been having an ‘interesting’ discussion – if I may ask a question – isn’t the topic about salvation? What salvation Is?! How Is a person ‘saved’? What is a person being ‘saved’ From? An example – 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Romans 10: 9 & 10.

It has been quite the tete-a-tete, hasn’t it? Yet, the discussion isn’t about what salvation is, or even (per se) how salvation is accomplished (other than tangentially) or what salvation ‘saves’ us from: the OP’s concern is what “no salvation outside the Church” means, and steve and I have been going on about what this reference to ‘outside’ means…

Of course, if you want to go on record as saying that salvation is a matter of works – that is, the work of “confess[ing] with the mouth and so [one] is saved” – then have at it…!

 

[crochet_lady]

So you’re suggesting that ‘confessing with the mouth’ is a ‘work’? Then ‘conversation’ itself is a ‘work’?

Okay – so What constitutes '" the Church"? Cause in the New Testament – In Acts – Paul and Silas and Paul and Barnabas went on missionary journeys to various cities – Rome being one of Many. Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, etc. establishing churches. Paul addresses various churches in his Epistles. So which one is The Church?
The New Testament churches are made up Of believers, aren’t they?

And, No – salvation is NOT a matter of works. Because - for one thing - Ephesians 2:8 & 9 says ‘Not of works’.

Sounds more like you’re ‘grasping at straws’ to ‘make your case For works’.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So you’re suggesting that ‘confessing with the mouth’ is a ‘work’? Then ‘conversation’ itself is a ‘work’?

Okay – so What constitutes '" the Church"? Cause in the New Testament – In Acts – Paul and Silas and Paul and Barnabas went on missionary journeys to various cities – Rome being one of Many. Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, etc. establishing churches. Paul addresses various churches in his Epistles. So which one is The Church?
The New Testament churches are made up Of believers, aren’t they?

And, No – salvation is NOT a matter of works. Because - for one thing - Ephesians 2:8 & 9 says ‘Not of works’.

Sounds more like you’re ‘grasping at straws’ to ‘make your case For works’.

Faith THROUGH works.

Not ‘works alone without faith’,’
Not ‘faith alone’ if by faith you mean, “Hey, I confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord! That’s it! I’m saved because by saying this, I have shown faith’”

As James tells us, faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD.

James 2:13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. [14] What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? [15] And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

[16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[Abu]

crochet lady #84
Okay – so What constitutes '" the Church"? Cause in the New Testament – In Acts – Paul and Silas and Paul and Barnabas went on missionary journeys to various cities – Rome being one of Many. Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, etc. establishing churches. Paul addresses various churches in his Epistles. So which one is The Church?
The New Testament churches are made up Of believers, aren’t they?

Why the confusion? Why not simply follow Christ?

The fact that it is possible to be saved while not being a Catholic does not enable anyone to so blatantly demean and thus disregard His clear teaching knowingly.

This is what Christ commanded:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later also to the Twelve]

Sole authority to Peter:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Which Protestant can say they “remained faithful to the teaching of the Apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread, and to the prayers.” (Acts 2:42)? So, as Jesus commanded, His Church has the Eucharist (Holy Mass), His seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of the pope, Her Tradition and Her Sacred Scriptures.

Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

Peter often spoke for the rest of the Apostles (Mt 19:27; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69). The Apostles are sometimes referred to as “Peter and his companions” (Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7; Acts 2:37). Peter’s name always heads the list of the Apostles (Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13). Finally, Peter’s name is mentioned 191 times, which is more than all the rest of the Apostles combined (about 130 times).

After Peter, the most frequently mentioned Apostle is John, whose name appears 48 times. Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church’s important “firsts.” Peter led the meeting which elected the first successor to an Apostle ( Acts 1:13-26). Peter preached the first sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and received the first converts (Acts 2:4 1). Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

Note that the early Church always accepted the Bishop of Rome as head of the Church. In about 80 A.D., the Church at Corinth deposed its lawful leaders. The fourth bishop of Rome, Pope Clement I, was called to settle the matter even though St. John the Apostle was still alive and much closer to Corinth than was Rome. Tradition shows Pope St Clement exercising his primacy in about 96, on a matter of schism in the Church of Corinth. Of the same generation as Saints Peter and Paul and when St John the Apostle was probably still living in Ephesus, Pope Clement wrote as one commanding to the Church of Corinth in Greece: “If any disobey what He (Christ) says through us, let them know that they will be involved in no small offence and danger, but we shall be innocent of this sin.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1) This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So you’re suggesting that ‘confessing with the mouth’ is a ‘work’? Then ‘conversation’ itself is a ‘work’?

Okay – so What constitutes '" the Church"? Cause in the New Testament – In Acts – Paul and Silas and Paul and Barnabas went on missionary journeys to various cities – Rome being one of Many. Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, etc. establishing churches. Paul addresses various churches in his Epistles. So which one is The Church?
The New Testament churches are made up Of believers, aren’t they?

And, No – salvation is NOT a matter of works. Because - for one thing - Ephesians 2:8 & 9 says ‘Not of works’.

Sounds more like you’re ‘grasping at straws’ to ‘make your case For works’.

To add to Tatum’s post:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

 

[Gorgias]

So you’re suggesting that ‘confessing with the mouth’ is a ‘work’? Then ‘conversation’ itself is a ‘work’?

In this context? Absolutely! If the mantra is “faith, not works”, then a ‘work’ is any action that a person takes and performs through his own power. That’s the standard, isn’t it? The rallying cry is “it is not from you… so no one may boast”, right? Well… unless it’s God who’s causing your lips to move and your voice to make sound… then it’s a work…!

Okay – so What constitutes '" the Church"? Cause in the New Testament – In Acts – Paul and Silas and Paul and Barnabas went on missionary journeys to various cities – Rome being one of Many. Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, etc. establishing churches. Paul addresses various churches in his Epistles. So which one is The Church?

All make up the Body of Christ, and so, the local Churches of the NT are ‘The Church’ (although they didn’t think, in those days, of distinctions between local churches and the Body of Christ)…

Sounds more like you’re ‘grasping at straws’ to ‘make your case For works’.

Explain to me how speech is not a ‘work’ – that is, not a personal activity that’s performed through the agency of a sinner – and I’ll be willing to entertain your notion that I’m “grasping at straws” …

 

[steve_b]

So you’re suggesting that ‘confessing with the mouth’ is a ‘work’? Then ‘conversation’ itself is a ‘work’?

Okay – so What constitutes '" the Church"? Cause in the New Testament – In Acts – Paul and Silas and Paul and Barnabas went on missionary journeys to various cities – Rome being one of Many. Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, etc. establishing churches. Paul addresses various churches in his Epistles. So which one is The Church?
The New Testament churches are made up Of believers, aren’t they?

And, No – salvation is NOT a matter of works. Because - for one thing - Ephesians 2:8 & 9 says ‘Not of works’.

Sounds more like you’re ‘grasping at straws’ to ‘make your case For works’.

Before getting to the other items, I have 2 questions

Q: Re: Ephesians 2:8 & 9, Why do protestants always leave out v 10 ?
From a Protestant translation (NIV)Ephesians 2:8-10
Q: What happens to the soul who doesn’t “DO” good works that God created them to do?

 

[steve_b]

Okay – so What constitutes '" the Church"?

What did Jesus say? Matthew 16:16-20

Note: Jesus said “I will build my Church” And who is Jesus talking to specifically who will receive the keys to His Church? Peter

Will anything prevail against His Church? No
cl:

Cause in the New Testament – In Acts – Paul and Silas and Paul and Barnabas went on missionary journeys to various cities – Rome being one of Many. Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, etc. establishing churches. Paul addresses various churches in his Epistles. So which one is The Church?
The New Testament churches are made up Of believers, aren’t they?

And what does Jesus require?

John 17:20-23 . Perfect unity behind the design He established. Peter is the head of the apostles, therefore he is the head of the Church. And they need to be one. As do all those who they bring into the Church.

That’s why Paul warned in the strongest possible language against division and dissent.
Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 , those who do it and remain so, won’t be inheriting heaven.

 

[crochet_lady]

Well – let’s see – our life is from God. He breathed breath into man so that we Could speak – so our ‘speaking’ is a natural vocal expression of our thoughts which come from the ‘heart’ of a person. If a person Couldn’t speak – had to use ASL (American Sign Language) - then moving his fingers / hands to communicate would Also be a ‘work’?

And others Should be able to ‘see’ our faith Through our every day activities.

And, yes, God Does have ‘things’ that He’d have believers to be doing for Him. The comment was made ’ and if a person Isn’t doing the things God wants him to do – well – That is between God and that person. Unless ‘we’ are trying to ‘be’ the Holy Spirit for another person, ‘we’ Won’t be knowing what ‘good works’ God has planned for the Other person. We simply need to be aware of what God wants “Me” to be doing for God and follow through with That !!

Back to Ephesians 2 for a moment – the ‘not of works’ phrase – a ‘work’ being something that is done through our own power – But - what is the Goal ? are we doing ‘things’ in our lives in order simply to please God? Or as an attempt on Our part to Help God with our salvation. If I’m attempting to ‘gain points with God’ by helping at the homeless shelter or mowing the neighbors’ lawn when he can’t. or putting more money in the offering plate —then I’m Also saying that In Reality – God’s grace Isn’t Really sufficient.
If those things mentioned are being done out of Love For God and concern for the homeless people – you’re Also taking a moment to say ‘God bless you’ / God Loves you – then Great. And you’re putting more money in the offering plate because you feel led of God to do so – then Great.

 

[Gorgias]

Well – let’s see – our life is from God. He breathed breath into man so that we Could speak – so our ‘speaking’ is a natural vocal expression of our thoughts which come from the ‘heart’ of a person. If a person Couldn’t speak – had to use ASL (American Sign Language) - then moving his fingers / hands to communicate would Also be a ‘work’?

It all comes down to the definition of what a ‘work’ is, doesn’t it? How would you define what a ‘work’ is?

Back to Ephesians 2 for a moment – the ‘not of works’ phrase – a ‘work’ being something that is done through our own power – But - what is the Goal ? are we doing ‘things’ in our lives in order simply to please God? Or as an attempt on Our part to Help God with our salvation. If I’m attempting to ‘gain points with God’ by helping at the homeless shelter or mowing the neighbors’ lawn when he can’t. or putting more money in the offering plate —then I’m Also saying that In Reality – God’s grace Isn’t Really sufficient.

Hmm… so, it’s not a matter of ‘works’ vs ‘faith’, it’s a matter of intent (‘pleasing God’ vs ‘gaining points with God’)? So, then, what you’re asserting is that Paul got it wrong (according to your interpretation of Eph 2)? That really, what he should have said was that salvation is ‘through faith, not through helping God’? If it’s really a question of intent, then some works do affect our salvation – after all, “work[ing] out our salvation in fear and trembling, God … works in you both to desire and work… that you may be blameless and innocent… as you hold on to the word of life, so that [Paul’s] boast for the day of Christ may be that [he] did not run in vain or labor in vain” (Philippians 2:12, 13, 15, 16). In other words, if Paul is only saying that some works – poorly intended – are what are in contrast to salvation, then other works are what we do to participate in God’s working in us, and this working in us is what makes us able to see “the day of Christ” in glory!

 

[steve_b]

Well – let’s see – our life is from God. He breathed breath into man so that we Could speak – so our ‘speaking’ is a natural vocal expression of our thoughts which come from the ‘heart’ of a person. If a person Couldn’t speak – had to use ASL (American Sign Language) - then moving his fingers / hands to communicate would Also be a ‘work’?

And others Should be able to ‘see’ our faith Through our every day activities.

And, yes, God Does have ‘things’ that He’d have believers to be doing for Him. The comment was made ’ and if a person Isn’t doing the things God wants him to do – well – That is between God and that person. Unless ‘we’ are trying to ‘be’ the Holy Spirit for another person, ‘we’ Won’t be knowing what ‘good works’ God has planned for the Other person. We simply need to be aware of what God wants “Me” to be doing for God and follow through with That !!

Back to Ephesians 2 for a moment – the ‘not of works’ phrase – a ‘work’ being something that is done through our own power – But - what is the Goal ? are we doing ‘things’ in our lives in order simply to please God? Or as an attempt on Our part to Help God with our salvation. If I’m attempting to ‘gain points with God’ by helping at the homeless shelter or mowing the neighbors’ lawn when he can’t. or putting more money in the offering plate —then I’m Also saying that In Reality – God’s grace Isn’t Really sufficient.
If those things mentioned are being done out of Love For God and concern for the homeless people – you’re Also taking a moment to say ‘God bless you’ / God Loves you – then Great. And you’re putting more money in the offering plate because you feel led of God to do so – then Great.

You appear to be addressing this post forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11609364&postcount=89

Good works for us, should be as natural for us to do as it is for an apple tree producing apples. As Eph 2:10 indicates,

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Your answer didn’t really address what the scriptures present. And the 2nd question asked, was avoided altogether.

What happens to the soul who doesn’t do what they are created to do?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9801442&postcount=58

Your Comments?

 

[crochet_lady]

steve b

I DID answer your questions – just not saying what you wanted me to say.

Eph.2: 8 & 9 are saying salvation is by Grace /of God / our ‘good deeds’ have No bearing on a person’s salvation.
vs.10 is talking about ‘good works’ that God has prepared for each of us. After salvation. And No One except God and the individual person can possibly know what the ‘works’ are that He has for an individual. So - for one person to ask another person - what if ‘x’ person Doesn’t do the ‘good works’ that God has for him to do – I might not approve of ‘x’ person’s activities, but that doesn’t mean that God isn’t directing ‘x’'s actions. And - what a person would be missing out on are the blessings that God has for him at that time. If a person feels the calling to go to a particular neighborhood to live and people think he’s crazy because of ‘whatever reason’ , it Might be that God will use his personality / talents in a special way.

God created us as a unique person with unique callings – so just make sure that Your unique calling is being done by You.

 

[steve_b]

steve b

I DID answer your questions – just not saying what you wanted me to say.

what’s the reference?
cl:

Eph.2: 8 & 9 are saying salvation is by Grace /of God / our ‘good deeds’ have No bearing on a person’s salvation.
vs.10 is talking about ‘good works’ that God has prepared for each of us. After salvation.

May I suggest reading the 2 article that follow. If interested, there is also something to listen to.
cl:

And No One except God and the individual person can possibly know what the ‘works’ are that He has for an individual. So - for one person to ask another person - what if ‘x’ person Doesn’t do the ‘good works’ that God has for him to do – I might not approve of ‘x’ person’s activities, but that doesn’t mean that God isn’t directing ‘x’'s actions. And - what a person would be missing out on are the blessings that God has for him at that time. If a person feels the calling to go to a particular neighborhood to live and people think he’s crazy because of ‘whatever reason’ , it Might be that God will use his personality / talents in a special way.

God created us as a unique person with unique callings – so just make sure that Your unique calling is being done by You.

"James 2:24 is remarkably clear: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are “justified by faith alone”—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians in the process of justification. " catholic.com/magazine/articles/we-can-work-it-out

Q & A
catholic.com/quickquestions/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation

If interested, since you’re on Catholic Answers, pour a cup of coffee or whatever, sit back and have a listen. I think this will clear up alot for you on what Catholics believe about good works
catholic.com/radio/shows/are-works-necessary-for-salvation-8636#