"No Salvation Without Joseph Smith"

[Bill_Pick]

Answersplease:
Joe Smith was NOT a prophet he was a drunk that was shoot in a bar fight…and the golden plates are a joke He was not a man of God,He was like Benny Hinn of this day a very good con man

 

[ParkerD]

Answersplease quotes

Answersplease,
Brigham Young received his keys from Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, so he followed the pattern I was writing about. For BY to have those keys and use them, he needed to be using them in accordance with the revelation whereby they were bestowed.

Several of the twelve apostles from the first organization of the restored church in these latter days, apostatized, so those apostles at that point lost their keys and authority even if they went off and started a new church. The keys are only in effect when used in righteousness, and Joseph Smith presides over the dispensation and thus presides over the use of those keys and authority.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would add that the character of St. Peter, a fisherman, was quite different than Joseph Smith.

After his reception of revelations, then didn’t Joseph Smith try to join a Methodist Church?

 

[ParkerD]

I would add that the character of St. Peter, a fisherman, was quite different than Joseph Smith.

After his reception of revelations, then didn’t Joseph Smith try to join a Methodist Church?

Kathleen,
No–he appears on a list as having attended a Methodist Sunday School class, but that does not mean at all that he sought to “join” their church. It means he attended one of their classes. Supposing I were to attend a Methodist Sunday School class tomorrow, or a Presbyterian class, or etc., and they wrote my name down as attending the class. That would not mean I had joined their church, especially if the rite of baptism was required to “join” their church.

Have a good day.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker, that is what the source said…if he had a true revelation from God…where could he had gone with it???

And his behavior was quite different in his conversion process than that of St Peter…there is a St. Augustine, whose mother prayed for him for over 30 years…he lived quite a life…his mother followed him to Rome…and then he left her there…Augustine was afflicted by the spirit of lust and it was for that reason he put off baptism…One night he finally saw deep in his soul what the lust was and he then saw it for what it was: demonic.

Joseph Smith’s sexual appetite is more of the flesh than spiritual compared to Jesus, last prophet…the fulfillment of all prophets.

 

[dnu]

The Mormon Church almost had me…then I learned that they believe the Garden of Eden was in Missouri…then, somehow, during the (global) flood (which most likely wasn’t a global flood anyways), Noahs Ark drifted over to the Middle East and thus began mankind…epic fail.

 

[ParkerD]

Kathleen Gee,
If one such as yourself is going to believe everything they read just because it has a “source”, then I really can’t help you with your concerns or your misunderstandings about Joseph Smith or Mormonism. I think any scholar or historian will certify that primary sources are best, and getting more than one primary source so that a balanced view is obtained is also good scholarship.

 

[Xavierlives]

You brring up a good point. Answersplease posting style leaves the responder with a difficult way to respond since if one keys in the qoute mechanism he or she will find a blank page. Plus, answersplease seems to have all the answers.

And yes, the OP does want to stir the pot by pasting info from websites with his own red and blue lettering commentary. And of course it would be nice to read the whole point behind what was said…instead of a quote and paste routine. Context becomes important.

What does it matter in which way Answersplease posts? I find Answersplease to have read more and researched how people respond to questions than anyone else. So posting the contradictions or problems is perfectly valid and a source of bearing out the truth.

I think the only thing I would request of Answersplease would be to remove his/her dialogue with the participants of the thread from

outside the quotes box.

It makes it difficult to diliniate between the original post and his/her comments. Other than that, I don’t see a standardized way to inquire or question people or faith on CAF.

To each his own.

 

[Xavierlives]

The Mormon Church almost had me…then I learned that they believe the Garden of Eden was in Missouri…then, somehow, during the (global) flood (which most likely wasn’t a global flood anyways), Noahs Ark drifted over to the Middle East and thus began mankind…epic fail.

Kathleen Gee,
If one such as yourself is going to believe everything they read just because it has a “source”, then I really can’t help you with your concerns or your misunderstandings about Joseph Smith or Mormonism. I think any scholar or historian will certify that primary sources are best, and getting more than one primary source so that a balanced view is obtained is also good scholarship.

Well, that and I think the Bible mentions the Garden between the Euphrates and Tigris and two others which escape me at the moment.

 

[Answersplease]

To say that Joseph Smith gives “his consent” is to say that he has observed the transfer of keys within the dispensation where he has a primary leadership responsibility, and has observed the proper use of those keys, and will be able to identify if someone or some group has gone off on some tangent and taken “authority unto themselves” and therefore nullified their authority in the eyes of God (which would be the case of break-off religions from the LDS religion).

Brigham Young received his keys from Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, so he followed the pattern I was writing about. For BY to have those keys and use them, he needed to be using them in accordance with the revelation whereby they were bestowed.

Several of the twelve apostles from the first organization of the restored church in these latter days, apostatized, so those apostles at that point lost their keys and authority even if they went off and started a new church. The keys are only in effect when used in righteousness, and Joseph Smith presides over the dispensation and thus presides over the use of those keys and authority.

Here is what I am trying to point out Parker:

Brigham Young said “I cannot go there without his consent.” That is talking about the future.
IF Brigham Young already had the keys and was using them properly and Joseph Smith “observed” the “transfer” and “proper use” of those keys, THEN Brigham Young should have said “I can go there because I have his consent.”

If you counter my analysis by saying that Brigham Young was saying that he wouldn’t be able to go IF he lost the keys in the future thereby losing Josph Smith’s consent,
THEN that still doesn’t nullify the fact that Joseph Smith is still giving or withdrawing his consent.

You said yourself that several of the apostles from the early days of your church apostatized and lost their keys, that means they no longer have Josph’s Smith’s “consent”.

Here are some more quotes that say you cannot go to heaven without Joseph Smith’s approval:

(color and underlining and bolding emphasis are added to highlight the original text)

mrm.org/no-salvation-without-joseph-smith

Brigham Young also taught, “How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of the resurrection pertaining to this generation, and that is Joseph Smith Jun. …if ever you enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. …no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned, without Joseph Smith saying so. The man who was martyred in Carthage Jail, State of Illinois, holds the keys of life and death to this generation. He is the President of the resurrection in this dispensation, …” (An unpublished Discourse given October 8, 1854. Also found on page 99 of Eugene E. Campbell’s book entitled, “The Essential Brigham Young”).

George Q. Cannon, a former member of the First Presidency, also said that Joseph Smith plays a pivotal role in the salvation plan. "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him;…" (Gospel Truth, pp. 199, 200).

 

[KathleenGee]

Answersplease,

You really do the most research on the founders of Mormonism…but I must admit I can’t read your posts very well…I can follow them when you put your own comments in before you share.

The first time I saw another poster do that to me, first of all, it came across as reactionary, and then I missed the main point of the source given. Then the poster followed up with a barrage of statements towards my character in a another manner of presentation that pretty much overwhelmed me.

I do like to study your research but I am an older lady and still find reading paper rather than online much easier. I don’t have good computer skills either.

Thanks!

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

I think it goes over your head about the concerns most people have about Mormonism and the ideas of Joseph Smith because he comes across pretty unstable, makes claims that don’t add up to anthropological and salvation history research.

The use of spectacles and so on sounds like early American story telling. When a person comes to Christ, they don’t need anything but the Spirit.

You have been on CAF for some time, so you know all the concerns, and probably have heard them a number of times in different flavors.

You always answer people charitably and we all appreciate that. And I personally have much affection for the Mormon people.

But it doesn’t add up. We Catholics experience the divine through the Eucharist, but the fruit is to serve others, incarnated, and to see the beauty of the world around us. So our churches reflect the beauty of creation received from God through Jesus Christ.

When you answer what Mormons believe now, I don’t see most of your present beliefs different than Christianity. Except the parts that contradict the Gospel.

It is through Jesus Christ that the universe was created by the Heavenly Father. Joseph Smith cannot be compared to Christ. He contradicts the Lord. There is masonry in the Mormon religion.

I would like you to come to a Catholic chapel with the psalms from the Bible, and sit there in the quiet and pray the psalms to the Lord and reflect…

All these ideas about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and their followers makes me want to say now, ‘Please come home!’

 

[Bill_Pick]

Answersplease,

You really do the most research on the founders of Mormonism…but I must admit I can’t read your posts very well…I can follow them when you put your own comments in before you share.

The first time I saw another poster do that to me, first of all, it came across as reactionary, and then I missed the main point of the source given. Then the poster followed up with a barrage of statements towards my character in a another manner of presentation that pretty much overwhelmed me.

I do like to study your research but I am an older lady and still find reading paper rather than online much easier. I don’t have good computer skills either.

Thanks!

KathleenGee; You sound like a girle after my heart I also do not spell well and I do not see well <Have bad grammar and have NO computer sfills. In a way God did put us together LOL…Have a great day and talh to you later,May Our Lord bless you and yours,PS I m also a older man

 

[why_me]

What does it matter in which way Answersplease posts? I find Answersplease to have read more and researched how people respond to questions than anyone else. So posting the contradictions or problems is perfectly valid and a source of bearing out the truth.

I think the only thing I would request of Answersplease would be to remove his/her dialogue with the participants of the thread from It makes it difficult to diliniate between the original post and his/her comments. Other than that, I don’t see a standardized way to inquire or question people or faith on CAF.

To each his own.

We should all post like him and see where it leads us. No one actually speaking to each other but pasting and posting from websites and then posting it with the impossibility for a direct response. It should make us all very civil.

 

[why_me]

Parker,

I would like you to come to a Catholic chapel with the psalms from the Bible, and sit there in the quiet and pray the psalms to the Lord and reflect…

All these ideas about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and their followers makes me want to say now, ‘Please come home!’

The mormon church is kinda young in years. Catholicism goes back centuries. What we have from early mormon leaders is not much and much that we do have comes from someone taking notes on what was said by JS or BY. Not very reliable. Also, both early mormon leaders were men out there with the people. They were not hidden away behind walls but out there struggling to survive with the church members. They got their hands dirty and they spoke from the hip. Both JS and BY were frontier men and very much a part of the american spirit of self-reliance.

And both experienced persecution inside a country that prided itself on religious freedom. And this had a tremendous impact on both men. It is never easy seeing peoples’ homes burned down and others killed for no other reason than their faith. And the American spirit carried the mormons to Utah after JS was murdered and to build a community of people with wonderful towns and cities. Brigham was responsible for this.

They were true americans…fighting for what they believed and never giving up in the face of insurmontable odds.

And if we can compare the lives of the popes at that time when JS and BY were around, we can see a difference. I don’t think that the popes was out with the people on a daily basis wearing street clothes.

 

[why_me]

Answersplease,

You really do the most research on the founders of Mormonism…but I must admit I can’t read your posts very well…I can follow them when you put your own comments in before you share.

I do like to study your research but I am an older lady and still find reading paper rather than online much easier. I don’t have good computer skills either.

Thanks!

Answersplease doesn’t do anything too special. It is really rather easy. First, he knows where the antimormon websites are. He then cuts and pastes something from the antimormon site, adds a comment and posts it in a rude manner without the possibility of a response. I would not call that research. Research is when one studies from various sources of different biasness, reflect on the ideas and then posts his or her opinions with a chance for dialogue. I don’t see answers doing this at all.

But certainly have fun in attempting to communicate with him or her.

 

[Xavierlives]

We should all post like him and see where it leads us. No one actually speaking to each other but pasting and posting from websites and then posting it with the impossibility for a direct response. It should make us all very civil.

Again, I think the only jarring part of Answersplease posts is the use of quote] boxes ending with / quote] if we could get rid of that in his/her dialogue it would simply our lives. As it is, anytime I read a post by Answersplease, I just have to slow down and make sure I understand non-quoted material from quoted material.

 

[Xavierlives]

Answersplease doesn’t do anything too special. It is really rather easy. First, he knows where the antimormon websites are. He then cuts and pastes something from the antimormon site, adds a comment and posts it in a rude manner without the possibility of a response. I would not call that research. Research is when one studies from various sources of different biasness, reflect on the ideas and then posts his or her opinions with a chance for dialogue. I don’t see answers doing this at all.

But certainly have fun in attempting to communicate with him or her.

The other part you seem to be discounting is Answersplease reads this board and digests what people say. Then is able to cross reference statements either others make or contradictory statements of the same person with a sense of clarity that is not common. I wish I had that skill more (especially in my field, because impeachment sometimes is at a premium). I couldn’t tell you if you contradicted yourself if my life depended upon it. I’d only hope that I don’t contradict myself because I only try to talk of the Word here.

 

[Answersplease]

Answersplease:

Thanks Xavierlives for your defending me.

 

[why_me]

Again, I think the only jarring part of Answersplease posts is the use of quote] boxes ending with / quote] if we could get rid of that in his/her dialogue it would simply our lives. As it is, anytime I read a post by Answersplease, I just have to slow down and make sure I understand non-quoted material from quoted material.

Well, we should have an anticatholic do what he does. Paste and cut from anticatholic websites in the same manner as he does with no chance of a direct response. I do think that the complaint button would be running quite often to the moderators from catholic posters and you would be singing a different tune.

It is impossible for mormons to respond to him directly. Thus, it is rude.