No stigmata for 1200 years?

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Friends,

I am often deeply disturbed by the emphasis placed on the stigmata received by Padre Pio and others. It’s almost as if the presence of the wounds is seen as a requisite for True Sanctity, especially after Francis.

If stigmata is such a great witness to Christ, a call to suffering, and means of sanctification for the recipient, why did it seemingly not exist for 1200 years before Francis? St. Paul makes mentions of the marks of Jesus on his body, but there is no one else after that. The Church Fathers didn’t have such ecstatic visions that led to this sort of thing.

I am tempted to believe that stigmata is the result of some sort of psychosomatic, physiological wish-fulfillment effect that comes from the sentimental, bodily gothic-era mysticism that developed after Bernard of Clairvaux.

This site moved me to ask the question, by the way: orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx
 
Padre Pio required the acid to treat infections of the Spanish Influenza.

My questions are not related to the honesty of those stigmata-sufferers who have been canonized by the Church. I trust them & the Church. I am just wondering why this didn’t happen for an entire millennium, and why people are so obsessed with it. 🙂
 
No stigmata for 1200 years? Sure.

And I would not put Paul in with the who received the Stigmata.

Yes – it seems the first to receive this extraordinary grace was St Francis.

That should not surprise us. God knows what gifts to give and when.

But it is not “per se” a conclusive sign of holiness.

And absolutely – *who have lived by grace a heroic sanctity *-- have not received that particular unusual grace.

Are there authentic stigmata as well as that which is “in-authentic”? sure.

Such has been a subject studied in Spiritual Theology.

Why do many find such moving? Due to the extraordinary nature of such.
 
Friends,

I am often deeply disturbed by the emphasis placed on the stigmata received by Padre Pio and others. It’s almost as if the presence of the wounds is seen as a requisite for True Sanctity, especially after Francis.

If stigmata is such a great witness to Christ, a call to suffering, and means of sanctification for the recipient, why did it seemingly not exist for 1200 years before Francis? St. Paul makes mentions of the marks of Jesus on his body, but there is no one else after that. The Church Fathers didn’t have such ecstatic visions that led to this sort of thing.

I am tempted to believe that stigmata is the result of some sort of psychosomatic, physiological wish-fulfillment effect that comes from the sentimental, bodily gothic-era mysticism that developed after Bernard of Clairvaux.

This site moved me to ask the question, by the way: orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx
“I am often deeply disturbed by the emphasis placed on the stigmata received by Padre Pio and others.”

Not many people in the history of the Catholic Church receive the stigmata, of course people would become highly aware of St Padre Pio’s stigmata. But the emphasis of St. Padre Pio’s life is not on the stigmata, but on his holy, humble, prayerful and meditative life.

“It’s almost as if the presence of the wounds is seen as a requisite for True Sanctity, especially after Francis.”

That is completely false. Look at the history of the Catholic Church’s thousands of saints. All are very holy indeed, some more predominately known than others. How many of them had the stigmata ? Only a few. I can only name two at the top of my head. Now look at the thousands of other saints. The holiness/sanctity of the saints is based on their thoughts, words and actions in the love of God.

Now I suggest you watch this youtube video about St Padre Pio’s life:

youtube.com/watch?v=UbgXRODiT04

Last but not least, people in general are not “so obsessed” with the stigmata.
 
I am just wondering why this didn’t happen for an entire millennium, and why people are so obsessed with it.
God has always worked with all generations, and not identically so to all. Even back to the Old Testament, different occasions of miracles occurred to this or that generation. You could say, why no temple for the first Jews before Solomon? Similarly, one could demand to know why no canonized Bible until the 4th century? Why no definition of the hypostatic union until the 5th century?

The Church grows in wisdom and stature, and when in the divine wisdom, a certain miracle is seen in God’s providence to be for the benefit of souls, He effects that miracle. Getting into the “why” God chose St. Francis as the first recorded stigmatist (after Paul) is not necessarily something we can prove to some dogmatic certainty, because, as Fr. Pacwa often says, “why” is something for management to worry about.

That being said, I supposed an educated speculation could be the certain value in St. Francis from that point in the Church forward, to show that God did not abandon the Church, but to show His profound unity with those who walk in His will, to remind the Church that we truly are conformed to Christ, to remind us that when we suffer, we are not an island, but united to his Passion.

As to people “obsessed” with the stigmata, I presume it’s because it is a miracle. :o
 
It has been said that there were no stigmatics prior to St. Francis. Perhaps history does not record *all * stigmatics.

Stigmatics need not have the *visible * signs of Christ’s wounds, but they may experience the *invisible * stigmata. They experience the pain and suffering of the Lord without having the outward wounds on the body. One example is St. Catherine of Siena, who dreaded the attention that the visible wounds would receive. She prayed that they become invisible, which was granted by God. A more modern example is St. Faustina, who also experienced the invisible stigmata. I believe most recipients felt as St. Catherine did. Padre Pio has, I believe, only one photo where his stigmata were very prominent and this was taken when he was very young. He, too, tried earnestly to conceal the marks, which was difficult when they bled.

Is it possible that, prior to Francis, stigmatics were primarily those who received the invisible wounds? Out of humility, they probably would not mention this suffering to others; consequently, the occurrences of the stigmata would not be recorded into history.
 
I tend to agree that we are not terribly obsessed with stigmata. I have a deep love for St Francis because of his poor and humble way of life and selfless service of others. I also very much admire non stigmatics such as Mother Teresa and St Damien of Molokai who exhibited the same characteristics. I am far from alone in this.

St Padre Pio I admire for two main reasons - one was his ceaseless (and reportedly quite physical) fight against the devil, and in particular against temptations to impurity. The other was his tireless and quite exceptional work as a confessor. Again other non-stigmatics such as St John Vianney are widely revered for the same reason.
 
Are you kidding me with the “they are psychological” dogma of materialists? Is there ANY evidence of this, that the mere thought can drill holes inside hands? It is like that man who went to Lourdes demanding a miracle, seeing one, then insisting it was healed by the the thoughts of the person.
 
There are saints who physically receive Christ-like-stigmata suffering without the wounds appearing. For example, St Faustina, the secretary of the Divine Mercy was blessed with receiving the pains of Jesus.
 
Thank you all for the replies. They are helpful & informative.

For clarification: my wariness about stigmata comes from Franciscan formation. One of the first things all Franciscans learn is how Francis received the stigmata on La Verna. For many people, knowledge of the Poverello begins with his stigmata. Doesn’t this set a dangerous sentimentality-focused, physicality-based way of looking at saints? “Ah, this saint received the wounds - he must be holier than the rest”, “ah, this saint whipped himself more vigorously to imitate the scourging at the pillar - what a great holy man!”, etc. - and it seems almost like a way to compensate for the fact that Christ didn’t come back in the first 1000 years. Other things had to be clung to after the average man lost hope.

It simply strikes me as odd that not one case is recorded for the first millennium; then we have Francis, and suddenly it’s the “In Thing” to claim to be conformed to Christ so fully that you have the very wounds with which He saved us. There’s so much ill that has come from the focus, the need to see the wounds in people other than Christ. We must see them on Christ uniquely, by faith. We should not need these things in creatures.

I wonder about this because only Christ has redeemed: only Christ has led captivity captive, conquering death by death. Great suffering, holiness, and glory were shown by generations of saints before stigmata ever became prominent. There had never before been a need for anyone to display the unique, holy wounds of the Passion. The Lord Himself bears them even now while gloriously reigning. Why look elsewhere? Why should sanctity be known by sight, rather than by faith?

By the way, those who immediately throw out psychological, physical, and physiological causes for these things are being just as biased as those who immediately throw out the miraculous. I do not reject either out-of-hand, but wish to be objective about it. This is also more about the effect that stigmata have on us, rather than their reality in those who receive it.
 
Friends,

I am often deeply disturbed by the emphasis placed on the stigmata received by Padre Pio and others. It’s almost as if the presence of the wounds is seen as a requisite for True Sanctity, especially after Francis.

If stigmata is such a great witness to Christ, a call to suffering, and means of sanctification for the recipient, why did it seemingly not exist for 1200 years before Francis? St. Paul makes mentions of the marks of Jesus on his body, but there is no one else after that. The Church Fathers didn’t have such ecstatic visions that led to this sort of thing.

I am tempted to believe that stigmata is the result of some sort of psychosomatic, physiological wish-fulfillment effect that comes from the sentimental, bodily gothic-era mysticism that developed after Bernard of Clairvaux.

This site moved me to ask the question, by the way: orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx
I side with your concern. I think there is a broader context: people tend to overemphasize extraordinary phenomena in general, not just the stigmata. Yet St. John of the Cross and all the traditional texts on mystical/ascetical theology that I know of warn against doing so.

They are not concomitant mystical phenomena, i.e., internal or external phenomena that ordinarily proceed from mystical activity in the soul, which go along with and are caused by growth in holiness (sanctifying grace, the theological and moral virtues, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit).

There is also a broader context regarding the article on the Orthodox web site. From the time of Christ to the Fall of the Roman Empire in the West the East was culturally, intellectually, and economically more advanced. After the fall of the empire in the West the East was in its mind the only and true successor of Empire. Those in the West were backward barbarian hicks. Peter Brown is good at showing how the common Mediterranean Christianity of the 3rd century developed into two different “precipitates” in the East and West, two different cultural expressions. 8th c. Byzantine Christianity was a distinct a precipitate of early Christianity as was 8th c. Western Christianity. [Peter Brown, Judith Herrin, and Averil Cameron all write well on this process.] Yet the East kept flattering itself in the thought that it is the true, more advanced, and more civilized Christianity.

When the West began its advance in the 11th c which continued unabated into the 20th the Orthodox East fell behind in every way to the point that they are now backward. The all-too-often snide and snarky reaction in Orthodox writers to anything Western in significant ways proceeds from either the past sense of superiority or the present sense of lost superiority. Cultural contexts make a difference in expression; but they need not mean a heretical break with Apostolic Tradition.

I think there is a general element of truth in what this writer has to say (last paragraph) although he discusses the present status of the filioque controversy:
“I would strongly yet respectfully suggest that this is the real motivating cause behind the zealous Eastern Orthodox rejection of Filioque–a quasi-‘nationalistic’ reaction to something that is, or at least perceived to be, a threat to the ancient and venerable Byzantine tradition. Such was the motivating instinct of the Eastern bishops at Blachernae, and of Mark of Ephesus and the other Byzantines who rejected the union of Ferrara-Florence. And it is the motivating instinct that governs the Eastern Orthodox Church to this day, which fears that it will ‘lose itself’ (its own identity) if it indulges any charitable comprise with the West. All canonical and theological arguments against Filioque merely serve to rationalize, and attempt to justify, what is essentially a cultural ‘gut reaction’ against that which is seen as alien to Byzantine heritage. And, because Byzantine heritage (i.e., the civilized, Christian heritage of true Roman Empire) is presumed to be one and the same thing as Apostolic Christianity, anything that is alien to it ‘must be wrong.’”
 
Yes what matters is faith, good works and the grace of God, not exterior signs.

Padre Pio was a Good man and a Saint who was embarrassed by the stigmata. Don’t believe that? Look at the fruits of his life, look at the increase in faith & all that he has done in the world directly and indirectly.

Pax +
 
…
Why look elsewhere? Why should sanctity be known by sight, rather than by faith?
The Lord has from the beginning given us signs in Heaven (Sun stopping/Joshue) and Earth (Red Sea, others) and Man (Raising from the Dead/Stigmata) to encourage us. Jesus said, “If you don’t believe my words, then believe because of my works.” Some of us, e.g. St. Thomas, NEED more to believe than others.
 
Yes what matters is faith, good works and the grace of God, not exterior signs.

Padre Pio was a Good man and a Saint who was embarrassed by the stigmata. Don’t believe that? Look at the fruits of his life, look at the increase in faith & all that he has done in the world directly and indirectly.

Pax +
I agree with your emphasis. The holiness that proceeds directly from sanctifying grace is what we need to learn from.
 
Some of us, e.g. St. Thomas, NEED more to believe than others.
You say, “I want to be objective”, but when faced with a miracle, such as Padro Pio’s wounds, you say, “I don’t need a miracle to believe”, yet you don’t believe.

I think you are looking for excuses NOT to believe in the miracles of the stigmata, which Christ obviously gave us to REMIND us of His passion.

What’s wrong with that? A reminder? A miracle?

But you say that you don’t necessarily believe in them as miracles, either. You are on the fence, I think, which is unbelieving.
 
I wonder how many people really know about the stigmata anyway?
Mostly Catholics, I suspect, but there were some physicians who came to believe
because of their investigations of the stigmata.

Jesus said, “Don’t be unbelieving, but believe,” to St. Thomas. So, you seem to fault
Him for giving us miracles to believe in AND you don’t believe.

I just think you want to fault God AND look for reasons not to believe in Him.
 
Signs might help those who don’t believe, but do we really need them to believe?
Read the gospels, look all around you right now! This world is already a miracle.
 
Signs might help those who don’t believe, but do we really need them to believe?
Read the gospels, look all around you right now! This world is already a miracle.
Although some of us, like St. Thomas, need miracles to believe, others who do believe get
tempted not to believe or to doubt by Satan. We sometimes need encouragement–and
miracles do just that…encourage us.
 
Yes there’s nothing wrong in miracles.
One of Christ’s main aims was simply to increase faith in God, think about it.
So anything that honestly and genuinely does the same is dong Christ’s work.

PAX+
 
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