No the Catholic Church is not the Whore of Babylon.... but it is the BEAST!

[RichSpidizzy]

I looked at the various tracts on Catholic Answer’s home page that deal with the accusations against the Church in regards to Revelation. The tracts mainly deal with refuting the claim that the Church is the Whore of Babylon, but don’t say anything about the Beast. I’m looking for refutations for the specific claims quoted below.

The first “beast” of Revelation 13 must be equally influential both spiritually and politically, for we know from Revelation 17:12-18 that ten nations will come under the geopolitical influence of this “beast” in order to attack the “harlot” This Antichrist is likely a man who has achieved greatness during a lengthy spiritual-political career, being gradually vindicated by a succession of past, present and future supernatural prophetic signs, which will peak at the opportune time (see Revelation 13:13-15).

To date, the Vatican State is the only religio-political power in the world, making Roman Catholicism the only world religion to have a political role in world affairs. During his Pontificate, Pope John Paul II had been making historical political (i.e. diplomatic) and religious amends in relations with countries and religious leaders all over the world – he contributed to the “liberation” of the U.S.S.R., made a historical conciliatory millenial tour to Israel and Arab nations, and has made historical progress in pacifying Cuba’s and most recently China’s communistic hostility towards Catholicism, all within the missionary context of “consecrating” these nations to the “Immaculate Heart of Mary.” It is important to note that certain Marian prophecies/apparitions that have been endorsed by the Catholic Church directly relate to this Pope, such as one given to seer Conchita in Garabandal, Spain.

There is also evidence that the Vatican holds some of the treasures of the Second Jewish Temple destroyed in 70 A.D. These are instrumental to the rebuilding of the biblically prophesied Third Temple in which the “abomination of desolation” (Daniel 9:27; 12:11; Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14) will be set up by the Antichrist and his False Prophet (the second Beast of Revelation 13:11-17). The Vatican may very soon use its diplomatic bilateral relations with Israel and the PLO to help Israelis and Palestinians come to an agreement about the coexistence of their respective holy sites - this would create a Muslim-Jewish peace (albeit temporary) that would elevate the peacemaker in the eyes of many. There is a prime candidate in the Vatican who seems to have the credentials to do this - Cardinal (and Archbishop of Paris) Jean-Marie iger, a Jewish survivor of the holocaust who is also a staunch Zionist. He is also numbered among the possible successors to the Pope. Could the Judeo-Christian iger indeed become the false prophet who elevates the Antichrist (Pope) so that the whole world (especially Jews and Christians) may worship him and his image (the “Blessed Virgin”)?

Of all the major religions of the world Catholicism seems the most influential universally politically as well as religiously.

 

[Maccabees]

This is your brain on drugs.

 

[Milliardo]

Another one of those speculations. This I find amusing:

There is also evidence that the Vatican holds some of the treasures of the Second Jewish Temple destroyed in 70 A.D. These are instrumental to the rebuilding of the biblically prophesied Third Temple in which the “abomination of desolation”

Notice how it says there is “evidence”…but doesn’t even say what those evidences are. Instead it goes in a tangent–again without much evidence to back it up. So, to sum it all up, it’s just that: another misguided notion to bring down the Church. They couldn’t pin down the Pope as the anti-Christ, nor the Church as the Whore, so now they invent a new speculation–all without any evidence.

 

[adstrinity]

Maccabees:

This is your brain on drugs.

 

[Milliardo]

Maccabees:

This is your brain on drugs.

I’m eating right now, and this made me choke with laughter. Good one.

 

[Darrel]

Maccabees:

This is your brain on drugs.

lol,

I have heard this sillyness for years. You read one prot book that says that the anti-christ will be a Pope another says it will be an Arab another says it will be a Jew. The only alternative to recognizing Gods work in the Pope is to call it a sign of the end. Anything less would be admitting that Gods true Church is in fact valid.

They see 2.5 billion people watched the funeral so it muuuusssttt be the work of the devil. I wish these people would actualy read the JP2’s, books they would convert.

-D

 

[Matt25]

The source for this is angelfire.com/rant/watchman2001/Beast.html it also includes this nonsense

Pope John Paul II endorsed the 2000 “euro” currency takeover as a “heaven cent”, blessing the European economy’s progression towards centralized “One-World” economic control (described in Revelation 13:16-17):
"Meanwhile, the Pope has emerged as a big fan of the euro and not because his profile will adorn some 670,000 coins being minted by the Vatican.
“The Holy See pays careful attention to the building of a united Europe,” the pontiff said last week. “This spirit of negotiation and dialogue has allowed nations that were once enemies to work together and the single currency is a further step in that process.” Price that, if you can.Although the Vatican’s minting of papal euro coins is regulated by the European Central Bank’s guidelines (which allow an annual quota for every EU member according to its population, the Vatican being the smallest member-state), it does raise suspicions about the nature of the image/mark of the beast described in Revelation 13:15-17. For now we at least know that a hard copy of the “image of the beast” will be hoarded into the pockets of many Europeans as a collectors item.

I also note that the church is criticised both for being pro-Arab and pro-Zionist, it cannot be both.

I also note that the Church is accused of worshipping Mary, which it does not, and that she is the image of the possible future Pope who also requires to be worshipped. Well he has not been elected yet but I am fairly sure that he will not require to be worshipped. The Church worships only God.

The idea that an ethnically Jewish Pope is somehow part of an evil world conspiracy is racist, paranoid, criminal nonsense.

 

[Sirach14]

RichSpidizzy:

I looked at the various tracts on Catholic Answer’s home page that deal with the accusations against the Church in regards to Revelation. The tracts mainly deal with refuting the claim that the Church is the Whore of Babylon, but don’t say anything about the Beast. I’m looking for refutations for the specific claims quoted below.

The United States is also a great economic and religious power. Is America the Beast?

 

[SusanG]

Let’s not discount the religious/political/economic power of Islam. More money there than we can possibly imagine.

With so many compelling alternatives why assume it is the Catholic Church? Oh right, because that is the religion that Protestants broke away from…

 

[RichSpidizzy]

OK, I think I’m simply going to reply that it doesn’t make sense that the Church is the Beast, since Christ established the Church and promised to protect it always.

Besides Matt. 16:18 (I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it), do we have any other scriptual support to show that the Catholic Church is the church originally founded by Christ and that He will always protect it? I vaguely remember Him saying somerthing about protecting it “until the end of time”, but I can’t think of the exact verse.

By the way, here is where the current Beast discussion is going on:
forums.offtopic.com/showthread.php?t=1714459
I have yet to add my :twocents: to the conversation, I wanted to make sure I was prepared. Oh, also, you need to be a member of that forum in order to view threads, they don’t allow anonymous viewing since they have so many members.

 

[Gracie2004]

I’m on several other boards, one of which is a board that deals with terrorism specifically…and of course there are threads that deal with their ‘fact’ that the Church is the whore…and that the next pope will be the anti-christ according to malachi …I can’t wait for the return of Christ Maybe then all these people will apologize for their bearing of false witness against men they have never even met

Gracie

 

[Church_Militant]

This is idiotic bunk since the Bible clearly specifies that “the beast” will be a man…not a church or organization.

I don’t know what lot of whack-jobs created all that, but they can’t be too brave since there is no real affiliations. Makes me think that it might be SDA or some splinter group thereof, since they have a history of not being upfront and making crazy allegations like that with no real Biblical or historical evidence.

 

[_ChristPaladin]

that the next pope will be the anti-christ according to malachi

Really? Can you tell me where, because I don’t remember reading that.

This site might also help people understand the Malachy Prophecy. newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon85.htm

 

[RichSpidizzy]

Oh good, Mike. I was hoping you would come in here. I figured you’d have some helpful tidbits to share.
Church Militant:

This is idiotic bunk since the Bible clearly specifies that “the beast” will be a man…not a church or organization.

Can you point me to the verses that specify the beast will be a man?
(I’m scripturally challenged )
Church Militant:

I don’t know what lot of whack-jobs created all that, but they can’t be too brave since there is no real affiliations. Makes me think that it might be SDA or some splinter group thereof, since they have a history of not being upfront and making crazy allegations like that with no real Biblical or historical evidence.

Matt found the original source of the article in post #7: angelfire.com/rant/watchman2001/Beast.html
It doesn’t say what type of religion the writer is though.

One more thing Mike, In post #10 I ask:

Besides Matt. 16:18 (I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it), do we have any other scriptual support to show that the Catholic Church is the church originally founded by Christ and that He will always protect it? I vaguely remember Him saying somerthing about protecting it “until the end of time”, but I can’t think of the exact verse.

I figure if anyone knows what I’m talking about, it would be you. Thanks Buddy!

 

[BibleReader]

It isn’t much good as a refutation of the “beast” accusation leveled against the Church, but one analysis of what the “beast” of Revelation 13 may be is very, very strange, indeed – the almond-eyed being in the UFO Abduction Phenomenon.

It fits Revelation 13 quite well.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

BibleReader:

It is important to note that certain Marian prophecies/apparitions that have been endorsed by the Catholic Church directly relate to this Pope, such as one given to seer Conchita in Garabandal, Spain.

It fits Revelation 13 quite well.

Garabandal is not endorsed by the Church. Boy they get all there “facts” wrong

 

[Gracie2004]

Paladin…this wasn’t my opinion or my thoughts…I was reiterating what has been said on another board I’m on…since the subject is the same as this thread on this board…so I cannot answer your question, as I’m not the one holding these ridiculous opinions

Gracie

 

[Matt25]

RichSpidizzy:

Oh good, Mike. I was hoping you would come in here. I figured you’d have some helpful tidbits to share.Can you point me to the verses that specify the beast will be a man?
(I’m scripturally challenged )

One more thing Mike, In post #10 I ask:I figure if anyone knows what I’m talking about, it would be you. Thanks Buddy!

I don’t know about Mike but I think you might have in mind Matt28:18-20

. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

As for the Beast being a man try Revelation 13:18

18 Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a person. His number is six hundred and sixty-six.

 

[Church_Militant]

RichSpidizzy:

Oh good, Mike. I was hoping you would come in here. I figured you’d have some helpful tidbits to share.Can you point me to the verses that specify the beast will be a man?
(I’m scripturally challenged )

Matt found the original source of the article in post #7: angelfire.com/rant/watchman2001/Beast.html
It doesn’t say what type of religion the writer is though.

One more thing Mike, In post #10 I ask:I figure if anyone knows what I’m talking about, it would be you. Thanks Buddy!

Uh…okay… :bible1: Let’s start with the 9th chapter of Daniel…especially the 26-27th verses through chapter 12 (all of it) This all ties in with the anti-christ prophecies from the NT. It’s all really weird, but the passages definitely show that he’s a man. If I rememeber correctly, the ac and the beast are both men, and the roles have to be sorted out because they seem to overlap in some places. All the n-C teachers that I am familiar (Where is michaelp when he could be useful?! ) with say he will come from the east and will befriend Israel, help rebuild their temple then betray them and “own” them (as my sons would say) then desecrate the temple by putting up an image of himself in there and demanding that all worship him. According to the NT, an awful lot of folks will follow him and we are really in for it then as he goes after us full on. (So what else is new…Jesus promised us persecutions for following Him. May God give us the grace to remain faithful in all things even as the ECF did!)

The W of B allegation against Holy Mother Church is dealt with effectively in the ma(name removed by moderator)age library and the whole idea that the church could be the beast is just not consistent with the scriptures. Much of the future and Eschatology is pretty sketchy, so I really don’t lose any sleep about it because we all know that we need to be found doing our Father’s business when Our Lord returns. :irish1:

The passage you wanted is this promise: (Matthew 28:16-20)16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

I hope this helps some.
Pax vobiscum,

BTW, that weblink is hooey and is cute but nothing more than someone’s conjecture (Of which end times talk is massively laden) and really is more like some a-C’s wishful thinking on this whole thing. Ya gotta watch for agenda driven stuff like that, the net is FULL of it.

 

[RichSpidizzy]

Thanks guys! Here is the reply I have formulated. I borrowed a bit from several of you, so it was really a group effort!

Well first, you might want to give credit to the original writer:
angelfire.com/rant/watchman2001/Beast.html

Claiming that the Church is the Beast/anti-Christ is nothing more than someones personal conjecture.
There is also evidence that the Vatican holds some of the treasures of the Second Jewish Temple destroyed in 70 A.D. These are instrumental to the rebuilding of the biblically prophesied Third Temple in which the "abomination of desolation"I’d like to know what this evidence is. Is it some sort of secret Vatican document smuggled out of the archives? Or maybe someone found the super duper secret vaults that the Vatican is storing the artifacts in, and they managed to snap some pictures? Or maybe, just maaaaybe, there is no evidence and the writer is just hoping you take his/her word for it.

The Church cannot be the beast referred to in Scripture because if you actually read Rev. 13:18, it is clear that the beast is a man, not a Church, Government, or any other type of institution:
Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a person. His number is six hundred and sixty-six.(Rev. 13:18)
Besides that, if the Catholic Church were to be the anti-Chirst, that would make a liar out of Jesus. When Jesus founded the Catholic Church, he promised that he would protect it and would be with it until the end of time (Matt. 16:18) and (Matt. 28:16-20)
…and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18)16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.(Matt. 28:16-20)
If Jesus allows the Church to become the beast, then (1) he didn’t do a very good job of not allowing the gates of hell to prevail against it, and (2) I don’t think we could say that he was with it all days, even to the consummation of the world.