No Trinity for the LDS?

[Allweather]

1)Then stay out of them. I want to have these types of discussion.

1. People only get angry when they have something to loose and do. A Pac

See there? Just this morning at 0900 or thereabouts you were saying you didn’t see any need to continue discussing with me. And here you are a few hours later digging in again. What is it about you, Pacman, that you can’t find a way to disconnect from a junior high schooler?

And BTW, you’re the one who seems angry. Could it be that your apologist career isn’t working out so well? That you have something to “loose” (I assume you meant “lose”)? I could tell you about the “peace that passes all understanding”, help you get rid of that anger problem…

 

[Allweather]

<<Why am I still having this stupid conversation with you??>>

Possibilities are that it isn’t as stupid as you think it is, and that you’re not quite as smart as you wish you were.

Glad to know that your creativity put in quotes is somehow my problem.

Quit playing dumb. It isn’t becoming of a professional. You know what I meant, but couldn’t resist the urge to dig on another human, even if it meant playing dumb. Not smart.

Accept, I don’t frequent those anti-Catholicism sights. LDS don’t support them as a practice, and my arguments are certainly NOT with a Protestant bent…FYI.

Fair enough on the anti-Catholicism, but I know one Mormon who is viciously anti-Catholic, and a few others who are only slightly less rabid. So I think there is a strain of anti-Catholicism that runs through your religion. You say your arguments are “not with a Protestant bent” but I doubt that. We haven’t seen much of your argument yet, but rather a whole bunch of head butting, so I reckon time will tell how to characterize your arguments, whether or not they be Protestant.

I know. I did…because you haven’t yet.

I’ve already told you how I approach things. If that bothers you, ignore me. I’m free to have my own style, same as you are free to have yours.

I welcome you here to spout your Mormon stuff. Go ahead and let it all hang out. I’m not stopping you, and I don’t see anyone else getting in your way. But it isn’t nice of you to complain because I don’t practice the same sort of religious “argument” that you do. Just accept it and go forward with your apologetics plan. And good luck!

 

[rmcmullan]

THis has been discussed here at length and the best thing I’ve seen on it is as follows (I wish I knew how to link to it. Can anyone help? It’s post #14 on a Feb 11 2007 thread entitled Three-in-One = Trinity? )

The Blessed Trinity
God is Three Persons in One Nature

1. There is one divine Nature.

NATURE – What something is. Answers the question, “What is it?”

2. There are three divine Persons.

PERSON – Who someone is. Answers the question, “Who is it?”

**3. Each Person is distinct and wholly Himself — Not one Person is either of the others. **

The Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit.
The Son is neither the Holy Spirit nor the Father.
The Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

4. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

The three Persons do not share the one divine Nature, as if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each are “one-third” God.

Rather, each Person totally possesses the one divine Nature:
The Father totally possesses the one divine Nature.
The Son totally possesses the one divine Nature.
The Holy Spirit totally possesses the one divine Nature.
Each Person, therefore, is God.

5. There are not three Gods but only one God.

The three Persons are distinct, but not separate.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit each do not possess separate divine Natures, which would mean They are three Gods. On the contrary, each Person totally possesses the same one divine Nature.

Thus, the Trinity is one God, not three Gods.

==========================End of Quote!

SO the Mormon and Catholic position are actually quite close, we only disagree on that last point. Mormons accept a Godhead, sort of like having a bishop and and a bishopric. Sort of. I find the last point to be a self-contradiction and could never accept it.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the Trinity seems like a device to avoid polytheism and to explain how Jesus both prayed to God and is God.

 

[Lehl]

I’m going to ask my Catholic brethern for further tolerance for Pacman (A Pac). Perhaps if we could be more understanding of his struggles and his lashing out.

He sure does seem angry in his posts and seems to portray to have contempt for Catholics, but like the Mormon church LOVES to say about ex-Mormons…

“They can leave the church, but they can’t leave it alone”

Likewise, I’ve discovered that Pacman CANNOT leave the Catholic Church alone. He’s obsessed with apostolic authority. I’ve concluded that the Catholic Church’s obvious authority is a huge problem for Pacman as a Mormon.

Personally, I think his Mormon “mental shelf” has collapsed or is very near collapsing due to the weight of apostolic authority. He’s understandably very angry and probably very frustrated. He is lashing out. I think the negative, reactive posts from Catholics in response to his “rude” posts are counter-productive. He’s looking for and needs a reason to be against the Catholic Church…don’t give it to him.

I think his posts are desperate attempts to perhaps try to re-convince himself of Mormonism and shore up those sagging shelves. I am certain the light of Truth has shone through .

I know for certain Catholics do not understand what is at stake here for a person in his position. I didn’t either until I married into a Mormon family. I found out real quick when my spouse became Catholic.

Mormonism is all encompassing. He could very easily lose his ENTIRE family, friends, and his employment (assuming he is in the Heart of Zion). If you’re not with the program, your life as you knew it here on earth is pretty much over.

I know none of you could even imagine such a dilemma.

So please, continue to educate Pacman and grant him some extra leeway as he struggles.:grouphug:

 

[PattyPryor]

I’m going to ask my Catholic brethern for further tolerance for Pacman (A Pac). Perhaps if we could be more understanding of his struggles and his lashing out.

He sure does seem angry in his posts and seems to portray to have contempt for Catholics, but like the Mormon church LOVES to say about ex-Mormons…

“They can leave the church, but they can’t leave it alone”

Likewise, I’ve discovered that Pacman CANNOT leave the Catholic Church alone. He’s obsessed with apostolic authority. I’ve concluded that the Catholic Church’s obvious authority is a huge problem for Pacman as a Mormon.

Personally, I think his Mormon “mental shelf” has collapsed or is very near collapsing due to the weight of apostolic authority. He’s understandably very angry and probably very frustrated. He is lashing out. I think the negative, reactive posts from Catholics in response to his “rude” posts are counter-productive. He’s looking for and needs a reason to be against the Catholic Church…don’t give it to him.

I think his posts are desperate attempts to perhaps try to re-convince himself of Mormonism and shore up those sagging shelves. I am certain the light of Truth has shone through .

I know for certain Catholics do not understand what is at stake here for a person in his position. I didn’t either until I married into a Mormon family. I found out real quick when my spouse became Catholic.

Mormonism is all encompassing. He could very easily lose his ENTIRE family, friends, and his employment (assuming he is in the Heart of Zion). If you’re not with the program, your life as you knew it here on earth is pretty much over.

I know none of you could even imagine such a dilemma.

So please, continue to educate Pacman and grant him some extra leeway as he struggles.:grouphug:

I thought the same thing!

 

[A_Pac]

PattyPryor,

I’m sorry if you feel I’ve been rude. I know it’s useless to ask you to consider the inflammatory remarks made even by you, so I’ll leave it at an apology.

AW,

Ignorance has everything to do with learning…not accepting a given fact. Again, the point of this thread is why the LDS definition, although consistent, is not a legitimate interpretation of the scriptures. So far everyone’s evaded that point…so I don’t see how ignorance has anything to do with it.

Just this morning at 0900 or thereabouts you were saying you didn’t see any need to continue discussing with me.

Goes to show that I my wisdom needs to catch up to my intelligence…a problem most of us have.

You know what I meant…

Say what you mean and mean what you say. It’s up to you to be a responsible adult.

Fair enough on the anti-Catholicism, but I know one Mormon who is viciously anti-Catholic, and a few others who are only slightly less rabid.

And I know of Popes that have written papal bulls ordering the torture of people. What’s the point?

We haven’t seen much of your argument yet, but rather a whole bunch of head butting,

Whaaa!

But it isn’t nice of you to complain because I don’t practice the same sort of religious “argument” that you do.

You’re right. Mine’s logical, scholastic, and objective. Why are you on an apologist site?

Rmcmullan,

Thank you for the post. I’m still waiting to understand how the “LDS” definition of the trinity contradicts scripture when it is the only consistent definition between the two.

A Pac

 

[rmcmullan]

Lehl, I’m all for more tolernace and not just for APac.

But your attempt to characterize the Mormon church as some kind of cult that ensnares you is either disingenuous or naive. There are a lot of ex-Mormons who post here who had no problems leaving it. As a faithful member, I see lots of people drift in and out (of the Mormon church) in a fairly casual manner.

I don’t expect Catholics to agree with Mormon doctrines, but try to be factual. No need to keep whacking at the strawman or to prop him up.

 

[PattyPryor]

A Pac I have read various other threads you are on… you are rude but I completely understand why you do it…appology accepted

 

[A_Pac]

A Pac I have read various other threads you are on… you are rude but I completely understand why you do it…appology accepted

Thank you for understanding…and thank you for reading my work. I hope you continue to do so.

And I forgive you again for calling me rude without provocation.

A Pac

 

[MelanieAnne]

Lehl,

You are very kind and charitable.

Since I have seen first hand the isolation that the LDS church imposes on members that stop attending, I completely understand and agree that this is a real problem for someone who breaks away, something many people who have limited experience with Mormons would have a hard time relating too.

I don’t know if I agree with this assessment of Pacman, but I’ll certainly give it consideration. You certainly have more experience.

I will also say that, regardless of what is going on with him, if he really wants to engage in productive discussion as he claims, he would find more people willing to engage in such discussions if he would knock off the cheap shots and juvenile put downs. He may think he’s very clever, but he comes off as childish. There are some very learned people that post on these fora but I doubt that many would be interested in the schoolyard taunts that most posters who get involved in extended chats with Pac end up getting exposed to.

 

[A_Pac]

Lehl,

Actually, I’ve had good conversation with both Genesis and Nina (I think their names were). And yes, I tend to joke with people that say stupid, inflammatory things. I’ll try to do better.

A Pac

 

[PattyPryor]

so now we are stupid?

keep talking its only getting better

 

[Lehl]

Lehl, I’m all for more tolernace and not just for APac.

But your attempt to characterize the Mormon church as some kind of cult that ensnares you is either disingenuous or naive. There are a lot of ex-Mormons who post here who had no problems leaving it. As a faithful member, I see lots of people drift in and out (of the Mormon church) in a fairly casual manner.

I don’t expect Catholics to agree with Mormon doctrines, but try to be factual. No need to keep whacking at the strawman or to prop him up.

I didn’t mean to encompass the whole Mormon church as “an ensnaring cult” (your words, not mine). I readily agree that it is not by itself and the people are not by themselves, either.

Is the “all encompassing” I described more the exception than the rule? Absolutely.

However, you cannot argue with me that there are not “some members” or “some areas” that this ISN’T true. Hey, it’s true for Catholics and Baptists and everyone else I imagine in some of their members and actually in some geographical areas.

I personally don’t know where Pacman lives nor what his personal circumstances are. I guess I assumed “worst case scenario” for the benefit of my argument.

It just seems he’s fighting so hard. I pray for peace for him and I hope everyone will join me.

 

[Lehl]

so now we are stupid?

keep talking its only getting better

Now, now Patty, he didn’t call anyone “stupid”. He said “people that SAY stupid things”

“Stupid is as stupid does” from our friend Forrest Gump, my favorite movie of all time.

I’ve seen plenty of “stupid does” here and we are needlessly and wrongly driving our interested, non-Catholics away with uh, less- than Christlike behavior.:doh2:

Certainly, we have the trolls. Then we have the genuine person who is truly interested and is struggling and comes across as very abrasive. It’s a defense mechanism and I’ve recognized it in several Mormons.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

So I’m wondering who the ORIGINAL god was in the Moromon cosmology? What are his attributes? Is he the god over all the other gods, in the countless generations of gods? What do the LDS say about him?

 

[Lehl]

Lehl,

You are very kind and charitable.

Since I have seen first hand the isolation that the LDS church imposes on members that stop attending, I completely understand and agree that this is a real problem for someone who breaks away, something many people who have limited experience with Mormons would have a hard time relating too.

I don’t know if I agree with this assessment of Pacman, but I’ll certainly give it consideration. You certainly have more experience.

I will also say that, regardless of what is going on with him, if he really wants to engage in productive discussion as he claims, he would find more people willing to engage in such discussions if he would knock off the cheap shots and juvenile put downs. He may think he’s very clever, but he comes off as childish. There are some very learned people that post on these fora but I doubt that many would be interested in the schoolyard taunts that most posters who get involved in extended chats with Pac end up getting exposed to.

Pacman is a sharp, witty guy. Over the years, he’s really ticked me off, annoyed me, but nonetheless–I’ve grown to actually like him quite a lot in a bizarre way (without it being creepy?!? right, Pacman?).:blushing:

But I will say this, Pacman is very capable of respectful, engaging, and thoughtful discussions. IF he drops his defense mechanisms in time (before getting himself banned) then I know we will see it.

He has come to right place, finally, to encounter the heavyweights in Catholic apologetics. And you’re right, they will ignore all posts by individuals that demonstrate the behavior we’ve seen so far from him.

 

[Allweather]

Ignorance has everything to do with learning…not accepting a given fact. Again, the point of this thread is why the LDS definition, although consistent, is not a legitimate interpretation of the scriptures. So far everyone’s evaded that point…so I don’t see how ignorance has anything to do with it.

I haven’t evaded it, only you are rejecting my answer. The answer (again) is that the Scriptures cannot be properly understood outside the the Church which wrote them and interpreted them for the 1700 or so years before Joseph Smith brightened his father’s countenance. But the ignorance in this case refers, as I recall, to your misunderstanding of Apostolic Succession, rather than to your misunderstanding of the Holy Trinity. Either or both, they are misunderstandings born of your separation from the correct interpretations of Scriptures that can only come from the Catholic Church, which wrote them, protected them, canonized them, and holds them in utmost reverence.

Goes to show that I my wisdom needs to catch up to my intelligence…a problem most of us have.

I understand. Feel free to ignore or not, at your pleasure. I’m perfectly OK with it either way.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. It’s up to you to be a responsible adult.

I always do, and I usually am. You know what you did, and you know that it wasn’t nice, so why don’t you just leave it alone rather than keeping it fresh in everyone’s memory? You’ve already antagonized most everyone here. Heck, I may be the closest thing to a “friend” you’ve got here, because I honestly do think you’re misunderstood.

And I know of Popes that have written papal bulls ordering the torture of people. What’s the point?

Call for sources! I assume you’ve got these bulls at your fingertips, and I’d be delighted to read them in full. But “the point” is that Mormonism teaches anti-Catholicism. My loved one got very little of the details about Mormon polygamy, but she did come away with the notion that the Catholic Church is “of the devil” as she puts it. Sure, that may be a localized thing, and not found anywhere in the “modern scriptures” but then again, maybe it actually is in there somewhere…

Whaaa!

Ouch. Man. That was a pretty exceptional argument. Your best so far.

You’re right. Mine’s logical, scholastic, and objective. Why are you on an apologist site?

Yours are not yet logical, scholastic, or objective, except in your own mind.

And, let me be charitable here, brother: it isn’t for you to guage my acceptability for presence here. I was here long before you got here, and I’ve been doing OK. Moreover, I help to make this forum possible for you and your Mormon associates to hang around in and spout off. You may not like it, and you know where the door is. However, unlike some of the others here who wish you’d go, I rather hope you’ll stay. I like Mormons who really display their wares. One of my theories about Mormons, based on some personal observation, is that as a general rule they are short on knowledge of Jesus. I’ve got a strong burning in my bosom that you are in this class of Mormon. And, I’d dearly love to see you learn more about Jesus. But even if that doesn’t happen, I’ll settle for lurkers finding out that Mormonism is only a dim imitation of Christianity, and you’re doing a great job of that.

Carry on!

 

[Kristine1957]

A Pac: Well if you know facts about American History…it is known that **“small horse like **” ( the size of a coyote)) were here millions of years ago. However, suddenly, no one is absolutely certain why, between 10,000 and 8,000 years ago, they disappeared from North and South America. Anyway, the horse was **GONE **from the western hemiphere and was not seen again until the Spanish explorers brought horses by ship in the sixteenth century.

Is God wrong in the BOM? or am I missing something?

 

[PurpleViolets]

But “the point” is that Mormonism teaches anti-Catholicism. My loved one got very little of the details about Mormon polygamy, but she did come away with the notion that the Catholic Church is “of the devil” as she puts it. Sure, that may be a localized thing, and not found anywhere in the “modern scriptures” but then again, *maybe it actually is in there somewhere… *

D&C 29:21:
“And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign.”

D&C 88:94:
“And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.”

1 Nephi 13:26:
“And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.”

1 Nephi 14:9:
“And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.”

1 Nephi 14:10-11:
“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.”*

Now while it’s never mentioned by name, it’s not hard to figure out what church is being referenced. Also some early Mormon publications stated it explicitly before having the offending passages pulled. One example is the first edition of Mormon Doctrine (printed 1958-65) in which this appears:

“It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.”

 

[rmcmullan]

However, you cannot argue with me that there are not “some members” or “some areas” that this ISN’T true. Hey, it’s true for Catholics and Baptists and everyone else I imagine in some of their members and actually in some geographical areas.

Yes, that is true, and I’ll grant you that many LDS spend a lot of time on church activities so when that’s gone, it’s a big change. Likewise if it’s a part of their social lives. And LDS are more likely to fall into that category because well, it just demands it! But while many are called, many feel fine with not answering and those are the ones that feel most comfortable leaving. But family obligations and social ties are a common church experience, not limited to LDS.