W
WindyHair
Guest
dark and light exists at the same time does it not?
just in different places.
but christianity, islam and other religions are hardly
opposites.
- Status
just in different places.
but christianity, islam and other religions are hardly
opposites.
M
Markstorm
Guest
In different places makes all the difference. Consider this:
Light exists at point a
Light does not exist at point b, where point b is distinct from point a
No logical contradiction.
But now apply this to the Christian religion and other belief systems.
Catholic: There is One Triune God of pure Spirit, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three Persons in one God
Islam: God is One but not triune
You see, your clever mechanism of “in different places” does not work here. There is only one God, a truth which both Islam and Catholicism acknowledge. However, Islam teaches that this God is not triune, while Catholicism maintains that God is triune.
So now they both acknowledge one Divine Being, but they believe two different things about that Being. This is like saying:
Light exists at point a.
Light does not exist at point a.
Now clearly both cannot be true. Therefore when I assert that the Catholic faith is correct while the error of Islam is incorrect, you may disagree with me about whether Catholicism is right or Islam is right, but you cannot claim that both are right.
It is disappointing to me that such an extensive proof has to be given about such a simple subject, but there you have it. Truth is not play-dough.
W
WindyHair
Guest
don’t let your pride get in the way.
M
Markstorm
Guest
Yes, because actually justifying my argument is pride. I should just learn some of your little one-liners and flaunt them as modernist wisdom.
R
rboo124
Guest
I don’t interpret her intention as meaning there is no truth. If she did in fact intend it that way, that’s not how I interpreted it. I don’t reject, and here’s why…
I was taught in Catholic school that God is all that is good, that how awesome he is goes beyond human comprehension…that we will never truly understand God’s love for us with our human minds.
So, with that, each of us relates more closely to aspects of God…depending on our personalities…
For instance…I view homosexuality as sin…as others do…some others are far more tolerant of gay people’s behavior than I am…some others are far less tolerant of gay people’s behavior than I am. Why is that? Is it wrong for people to be as offended as they are towards sin? Is it wrong for others to be less offended by sin, but still know it is wrong?
Many people relate to the ‘punishing’ aspect of God to sin, as described in the OT, while others relate to the ‘forgiveness’ of sin, as described in the NT. We’re all against ‘sin’…but view the act of sin and it’s perpetrators in very different manners. Both views are correct…there IS punishment for sin…just as there is forgiveness for sin if we reach out for it.
Some may focus more on God’s laws of obedience, and work harder to adhere to that…others may focus more on God’s promises of compassion and understanding, and rely more on that.
We are each individuals…all following the Church’s teachings to the best of our abilities…yet, we are all so different, also.
I’ve never met two people who have the same exact belief…just as I’ve never met two Catholics who have the same exact belief…perhaps in ‘principle’, but not in ‘practice’.
I think this was a great post…gets you thinking…and hopefully understanding and accepting others. Perhaps the OP did mean it very differently than I read it…I haven’t followed up on all the posts in here, but, I like the meaning I got from it regardless of how it was intended.
Perhaps I’m the one missing the point of this post…very possible…but, what it’s meant to me is of importance. So, even if I interpreted it wrong, I’ve gained some value by how I’ve translated it and pondered it.
R
rboo124
Guest
Hmmm…well, Christianity and Islam may not be ‘opposites’…but, neither are apples and oranges.
Apples and oranges, while both fruit, are still VERY different from eachother, aren’t they?
You can’t accept both Christianity and Islam as Truth…it’s not rational…one is and the other isn’t. The challenge is to research both to come to the conclusion of which is Truth.
There are aspects of Islam that I respect…but I do not accept the belief system as Truth. There is good in it…but, it’s not ‘whole’.
W
WindyHair
Guest
you (along with other religions) live in point a.
atheists live in point b.
you cannot see point b,
becaus you’re locked inside point a,
along with many of your kind. vice versa.
when someone from the outside
looks upon all religion, they can
see that it’s dark in america
and light in japan, or green or blue
or red, at the same time.
W
WindyHair
Guest
good answer. i’m glad you realize that we’re all different
and so is our relationship with god. you have one
aspect of the point, or part of it.
man cannot label god.
it’s sorta like a blade of grass
telling the sun what it is or isn’t.
it’s not our place.
W
WindyHair
Guest
i’m a guy by the way. lol.
E
estesbob
Guest
This is not true, Although because of our life experiences we may view our faith in different ways ways what you are implying . goes far beyond that-you’re implying that that truth is relative.
There are bedrock beliefs of the Catholic faith that we all believe or we can really not call ourselves Catholic. For example we all believe that Jesus rose from the dead and that Jesus was the son of God.
M
Markstorm
Guest
Okay, we argue from your paradigm. Assume that atheists are at point a and Catholics are at point b. According to your argument, since light can exist at point a but not exist at point b, we can draw the analogy over to religion and say that something can be true at point a but untrue at point b.
This is relativism, and I will now show you why it’s wrong.
Atheists are point a, Catholics are point b
Premise 1: God exists for Catholics, and therefore at point b God exists.(definition)
Premise 2: God is partially defined to be the Supreme Being, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (definition)
Premise 3: If a being is Supreme, then it is necessary. Otherwise, there would be at least one possible world where it is nonexistent. But if it is nonexistent here, then something else is superior in this world, and the Supreme Being would no longer be supreme.
4: If God exists at all, God exists necessarily (from 2, 3)
5: God exists at point b (premise 1)
6: God exists necessarily (from 4, 5)
7: If God exists necessarily, he exists at point a (definition of necessary existence)
8: God exists at point a (from 7, 6)
Your argument is now irrelevant. It no longer matters whether I can understand the atheistic position or not, because that is a moot point. I’ve demonstrated that either God exists or does not, it is not relative to the belief of an individual.
Therefore when you look in “from the outside” and conclude that any belief is possible and all are true, you are giving into the most contemptible form of apathy and ignorance.
If I sound uncharitable to your argument, it is nothing personal - the error of relativism is deadly, and deserving of the strongest form of refutation. You may continue accusing me of being confined by my own beliefs, but you’ll notice that throughout this argument I am the one offering rational, logical proof and you are the one making baseless assertions and accusations.
I hope this process has been enough to show you the error of your position - I regret that I no longer find this to be a productive exercise, and wish you the best in your search for knowledge.
S
stbruno
Guest
Take it a step further, I can almost say without a doubt, our faith changes as we age, as we learn more about our faith etc…Hopefully, our desire to get closer to God increases exponientally as our knowledge of our beliefs increases as well. I know it has for me.
But I do believe that when we make our profession of faith at every mass, we start from a very common ground. And then the Holy Spirit takes the reins…which we can accept or reject.
As for me, me:thumbsup: and my house, we serve the Lord.
But I do believe that when we make our profession of faith at every mass, we start from a very common ground. And then the Holy Spirit takes the reins…which we can accept or reject.
As for me, me:thumbsup: and my house, we serve the Lord.
W
WindyHair
Guest
not exactly, that’s the bedrock of christian faith.
so let me ask you this,
is that all you need in order to
go to heaven, is to believe that
jesus rose from the dead and is
the son of god?
W
WindyHair
Guest
no, your faith changes as
you learn more about yourself.
E
estesbob
Guest
If one is a Catholic that is not what we believe. No one is disputing that there are different beleifs among different Christian denominations.
To tell you the truth after reading on your post I’m really not sure all what you’re trying to get at. It appears like me that we are quickly deteriorating into a semantics argument.
So let’s just cut to the chase. Do you believe there are absolute truths? Do you believe the truth is relative?
W
WindyHair
Guest
T
teachccd
Guest
But does the playdough, its very essence, change?
T
teachccd
Guest
Maybe I wish to believe that you’re a girl…
E
estesbob
Guest
Interesting to see an agnostic who claims to be a vampire Hunter lecturing us on our faith. The more I learn about myself the more it strengthens my faith. And please don’t answer with any your “thinking” in your box nonsense.
Since you believe that truth is relative there really is no basis for adiscussion. Its like arguing faith with a Sola Scriptura adherent. They require you to accept their interpretation of Scripture in any discussion on faith, in your casewe are required toexcept your definition of truth which seems be whatever you want it to be.
T
teachccd
Guest
That is a point that I brought up on his other thread. There is absolutely no point to this discussion. It is circular argument and no one will ever be “right”. This is a total waste of time in the sense that WindyHair has no basis for anything that he promotes. In his “broad, outside the box” thinking if one believes that God exists then He exists for him. If one does not believe that God exists then God does not exist for him.
How in the world can we dialogue about a theory that refutes itself. He is relatively wrong and he proves that to himself…Got better things to do…teachccd
- Status