No two people have the same exact belief

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WindyHair said:
(shortened for the sake of clarity and smooth-flowing)

yet a simpleton john doe who knows nothing about theology or religion, likes to go a fishin, havin a beer on saturdays, and eating pumpkin pie goes to hell. even though he’s never hurt nobody.

and suppose someone is born with a mental disorder that causes them to commit a particular mortal sin. is it entirely their fault? what if something happened in their childhood that caused them to fear christianity. is it entirely their fault?
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I don’t believe you have the definition of a mortal sin, WindyHair. In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:


  1. *]it must be grave matter
    *]it must be done with full knowledge
    *]it must be done with full consent

    So a mental disorder could not cause someone to sin mortally, nor could anything else. To commit mortal sin is a choice, a willfull turning away from God.

    Why would anyone do it? I can’t really tell you. I can tell you that I have done it before myself :o and I don’t really know why. Yes, I repented. Yes, I went to Confession.

    Yes, I have been forgiven. And yes, if I were to fail in such a major way again, and repent again, God would forgive me. Again.

    Actually, God’s forgiveness is not conditional to our repentance; He forgives us automatically - it’s just up to us to take the time to recieve it, and admit our need of it.

    Furthermore - your simpleton who has never hurt anyone would not necessarily go to hell.

    You seem to be of the impression that in order for something to be Truth, we need to know it.

    The thing is, we don’t.

    Light exists even in a darkened room - the thing is, the room that is dark has a privation or a lack of light. the dark itself does not actually exist, it is merely a privation of what does exist.

    Pax Christi,
    Esther Rose
 
Salvation is a tricky business.

Yes, it is Catholic Doctrine that a person must be inside the Church when he dies in order to be saved.

Yet we are also told that those who seem to be within the Church may actually be outside of it, and those who seem to be outside the Church may actually be within it.

The requirements for Salvation are simple: baptism, and belief in all that has been revealed. Stricta Dicta is that which could not be known apart from Revelation, and Late Dicta is that which could be known through the use of reason, but has been Revealed as an extra help to humanity.

Baptism - the normal way to receive Baptism is by water, but Baptism can also be received by Blood (martyrdom) or by Desire (someone who dies before it is possible for them to be Baptised, but they wanted it).

There is also the idea forwarded, and I’m not sure if this is the Truth or not but it made sense to me (please correct me if I am mistaken), that Baptism by Desire might include those who would have desired Baptism, had they known.

Mind you, there is a difference between culpable or vincible ignorance and invincible ignorance. If a person should have known, but refused to allow themselves to know in an attempt to avoid consequences and keep living as they had been, their ignorance really can only increase their culpability.

If a person could not have known, if their ignorance was unconquerable, then they are not at fault.

So you see, we do know a little bit about the Economy of Salvation… and I am sure that others could give you a better defined, more well-spoken and clearer definition than I - I am only in my first year of my Catholic Liberal Arts education, after all.

The thing is, while we know about the Economy of Salvation, or the science of how it works, we cannot see into another person’s heart.

Thus we cannot judge whether or not someone will be going to heaven or hell; we can’t even be 100% certain concerning ourselves, but instead we have a certain hope and do everything in our power to live good lives according to Christ’s example.

It is only for God to know concerning the individual, whether or not that person is choosing heaven or hell. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t true that that person is choosing one over the other; he or she is; we just don’t know which is the case.

Pax Christi,
Esther Rose
 
Neophyte_Rose said:
I don’t believe you have the definition of a mortal sin, WindyHair. In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:


  1. *]it must be grave matter
    *]it must be done with full knowledge
    *]it must be done with full consent

    So a mental disorder could not cause someone to sin mortally, nor could anything else. To commit mortal sin is a choice, a willfull turning away from God.

    Why would anyone do it? I can’t really tell you. I can tell you that I have done it before myself :o and I don’t really know why. Yes, I repented. Yes, I went to Confession.

    Yes, I have been forgiven. And yes, if I were to fail in such a major way again, and repent again, God would forgive me. Again.

    Actually, God’s forgiveness is not conditional to our repentance; He forgives us automatically - it’s just up to us to take the time to recieve it, and admit our need of it.

    Furthermore - your simpleton who has never hurt anyone would not necessarily go to hell.

    You seem to be of the impression that in order for something to be Truth, we need to know it.

    The thing is, we don’t.

    Light exists even in a darkened room - the thing is, the room that is dark has a privation or a lack of light. the dark itself does not actually exist, it is merely a privation of what does exist.

    Pax Christi,
    Esther Rose
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    1. your three points are highly subject to interpretation.
    2. what matters if you commit a mortal sin when you can just repent it away
    3. Yes, truth is truth whether we know it exists or not. When it comes to religion however, it’s people who say they KNOW the absolute Truth that bothers me.
 
WindyHair said:
  1. your three points are highly subject to interpretation.
  2. what matters if you commit a mortal sin when you can just repent it away
  3. Yes, truth is truth whether we know it exists or not. When it comes to religion however, it’s people who say they KNOW the absolute Truth that bothers me.
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  1. **Grave matter - it is, for the most part if not all of it, outlined by the Church. This can be discovered in the Catechism.
    ** Full knowledge     - see above for information on culpable vs. vincible ignorance. it seems pretty clear to me.
    Full consent - again, pretty simple. you have to choose to commit the act, you cannot be forced to commit a mortal sin either by another party or by a mental condition.
  2. Yes, but to presume upon God’s forgiveness like that would in itself be a mortal sin. Repentance has to be sincere; to repent means to turn away from your sin, to reject it, to abhore it. to repent is to turn back to God with the honest intention of never committing the same sinful act again.

    Now, could you end up committing the same act again? Yes. But in order to have recieved God’s forgiveness and grace from the Sacrament of penance, you had to of, at the time, truly repented - meaning that you did not mean to sin again.

    Also, there is a certain amount of culpability if you knowingly and willingly allow yourself to be in a situation where you are more likely to, if not commit a repeated sin, then to be tempted to do so - we are supposed to avoid such situations, called occasions of sin.
  3. Can’t help you there. We don’t know the complete Truth, however I am certain with the certainty of faith that all that is Revealed, through Public Revelation in Scripture and Tradition, is 100% Truth.

    We may not always, as individuals, get the best definition down or understand completely what has been Revealed. That is why the Church is continually explaining and expounding upon what is revealed.

    But whether we get it or not, whether we live it out or not, it is the Truth, and 100% of it. I believe that what the Church teaches, she learned from God who Revealed it to Her. and I trust God as the formal object, and I trust the Church as His ordained voice upon Earth.

    I am sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but I am not sorry for believing as I do, or for living as I believe. It is the best thing that has ever happened to me, and I will not be made to regret it for even one moment.
Pax Christi,
Esther Rose
 
Neophyte_Rose said:
Code: 
 I am sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but I am **not sorry** for believing as I do, or for living as I believe. **It is the best thing that has ever happened to me, and I will not be made to regret it for even one moment.**
Pax Christi,
Esther Rose
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we can go down the rabbit hole of philosopy
and debate until we’re blue. but since i’m sure
both you and i have better things to do, i’ll just
reply to your last paragraph.

i’m glad that you feel the way about your religion as you do,
just as many others who feel the same way about theirs.

i’m glad that you have found what’s right for you.

i hope the same for everyone,
and i hope you feel the same for everyone.
 
WindyHair said:
  1. your three points are highly subject to interpretation.
  2. what matters if you commit a mortal sin when you can just repent it away
    3. Yes, truth is truth whether we know it exists or not. When it comes to religion however, it’s people who say they KNOW the absolute Truth that bothers me.
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Why?
 
WindyHair said:
  1. your three points are highly subject to interpretation.
  2. what matters if you commit a mortal sin when you can just repent it away
  3. Yes, truth is truth whether we know it exists or not. When it comes to religion however, it’s people who say they KNOW the absolute Truth that bothers me.
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I know the Truth. Jesus Christ is the Truth. God is the Truth. They are absolute in every way. What bothers me is your absolute nihilism or relativism.
 
WindyHair,

while I respect other people’s right to choose to believe what they wish, I cannot feel “happy” that they have chosen something other than what I know is Truth.

put it this way: I can understand that my protestant grandmother is really motivated out of love when she says things like “the head bishop of Canada for my Church is a woman, wouldn’t you like to be a priest one day?”

…even though I know that she knows this to be a controversial and uncomfortable topic for me, and that she is picking a fight, I also know (or prefer to assume) that she is motivated ultimately out of love and concern for me.

…this assumption of mine, concerning her motives, allows me to respond cheerfully and politely. I know that we’ve already discussed why women shouldn’t be priests. I know that she knows where I stand.

I know a family reunion is not the appropriate place to get into a debate, particularly when I am the only Catholic there and a new one at that.

Thus, I can be comfortable in responding “No, not really.” and then switching the topic to a more agreeable discussion, or if I’m really struggling, I just find myself an excuse to leave the room and do so.

However, I also hope that others (such as my mother) can understand that my motive is love and concern for them when I initiate or enter into a discussion aimed at getting them to look closer at the Catholic Church.

Of course I’m not “happy for them” when people I love embrace a religion that is either way off course, or just lacking in the fullness of Truth that can only be found in the Catholic Church.

Yet I can still respect and love them, and respect their right to choose what they believe.

Now, I’m all tired out for one evening. I’ve had an exam, two classes, and then I went to a Healing Mass that lasted from 6pm to 9-something-pm, and then I came on here. I’ve been debating and discussing for around two or more hours now.

Maybe I’ll read more tomorrow, but I doubt it. I’ve got at least four exams next week, and maybe a re-write of one if I did too abysmally today and the teacher decides to allow us the option (he has hinted that he might).

If this topic is still going after exams are done, I might have more to say (or if I see something that I just must reply to).

Pax Christi,
Esther Rose
 
ps - WindyHair, I don’t appreciate your “hints” that you could debate more with me.

Go ahead and do so; just remember that I’ve got a Catechism, Holy Scripture and Tradition, and many excellent teachers and friends to assist me. So really, it’s not just me that you would be debating with.

But if you don’t wish to continue the debate, then don’t “hint” that you may have more objections, and then not provide those objections.

I am willing to debate until long after I am blue in the face, if necessary. 😉

Just, it’s hard to debate against phantom objections that no one can see or read.

Pax Christi,
Esther Rose
 
estesbob said:
How do you know its true?
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i don’t. that’s why i’m agnostic.
there may be multiple truths.

i live life as i see it. it’s subject to change
as i change, grow as i grow.

i do not live in fear of going to hell.
i do not live in hopes of going to heaven.

i live life as a simple human being
made of the earth.

i see beauty in nature and that is enough for me.
i don’t need a book to tell me where god is.

when i want to be a little closer to god,
i’m not gonna go hide myself from him
inside a steel dome. i’ll go out into the
mountains, forest and rivers and i’ll look
inside myself for him.

thanks for your questions
 
Forgive me if my response is out of sync, I’ve got to work on how I view postings. Here is is anyway…

WOW WindyHair! Rose just gave you an extremely charitable response. I’m more of a “tough love” guy, but trying find my softer side!

In addition to being truly sorry, one must make a firm commitment to NOT sin again. This is important because not really sorry = not really forgiven.

I would challenge Rose to support her statement that we are forgiven even if we didn’t repent. If we are all saved/forgiven anyway, why not just dispense with the 10 Commandments and mortal sin and we can all do whatever we want?

To your point that one can “just repent” again, is dangerous. To die in a state of mortal sin is to lose all hope of going to Heaven. We don’t know the hour or day that we will be called to account for our lives. I’d hate to see anyone commit a mortal sin on Monday with the thought of casually “catching confession” on Saturday, only to die on Wednesday.

Interesting that religion is the only area where you find knowledge of truth to be questionable. Why do other areas of truth cause you no concern? There are stories everyday that testify to people of other religions (protestant, Jewish, Mormon, jw, agnostics, atheist, et al) finding the truth in the Catholic Church. These conversions come about because they study the bible, early church teachings, and can follow the path of the Deposit of Faith from the past to the present. Its really much easier than finding the truth in quantum mechanics. To quote X-Files, the truth is out there. To quote the bible, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Hope this helps. God bless us all.
 
WindyHair,

and what about after you die? what then, is it just… over? doesn’t that get kind of depressing?

also, those of us who worship within a Church are not “hiding away inside a steel dome”, we are gathering within a building to be together in community as we render worship to our God.

Also, in a Catholic Church there is the Real Presence, the physical reality of our Lord and God right there in the Tabernacle. There is nowhere better to look for God.

Though, you are right also. God can be found outside on the mountains, or beside a stream. He is glorified in our enjoyment of these things.

But these things are not the end-all for us. There is even more than the most beautiful sunrise or sunset, even more than the most beautiful lake, even more than anything and everything that we could ever imagine or lay eyes on - God is that even more, He is the ultimate beauty.

That is what we will see, worship and be with eternally in heaven. That is what we hope for. Even more.

Also, we Catholics find God inside ourselves as well - right after we’ve received the Eucharist, He is physically present within us. And He calls us to be reflections of His love, to strive to be like Him and love others as He has loved us.

I hope you can see the beauty of what I am speaking about. It’s hard even for me (a poet) to express it, because the splendor of my God is ineffable.

Pax Christi,
Esther Rose

ps - I think I count … 4 also’s in the same post, and from a poet no less! I must be tired. Goodnight!
 
D317 said:
I would challenge Rose to support her statement that we are forgiven even if we didn’t repent. If we are all saved/forgiven anyway, why not just dispense with the 10 Commandments and mortal sin and we can all do whatever we want?
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D317,

to be saved and to be forgiven are two different things.

We are all already forgiven by God, because God is all forgiving.

The thing is, we need to accept that forgiveness, to receive it willingly from Him.

It’s kind of like, I have a friend who chose to believe rumors about me. I have already forgiven her for listening to lies about me, but she has not chosen to receive my forgiveness. In order for the friendship to be restored, she has to admit that she was wrong. But she is already forgiven.

I hope that this clarifies.

Pax Christi,
Esther Rose
 
God bless both of you.

WindyHair, you could be on a journey of finding the truth. Open yourself up to the possibility that the truth is out there. Be prepared to accept the possibility that it could be uncomfortable when you find it. Take heart in the fact that when you find it, you will be home.

Your love of nature is excellent; but, how did it come to be (nature)? Do you really think that we are all just some accident of the cosmos? Look at the beauty in the world and reflect on what we believe (I would say know) is the truth.

Our purpose in life is more than just to live, die, and that is it. If that were the case, why would anyone want to be “good”? Why wouldn’t we be able to kill and steal without earthly consequences? Take those answers and reflect on what I’m sure you know in your heart: that there is a natural moral law written on our soul that tells us instinctively what is right & wrong.
 
Rose, thanks for the explanation. God is all forgiving, merciful, and just. I’ll need to reflect on your answer. Thank you again.

PS: sorry for calling you Rose, I was referring to your screen name.
 
Neophyte_Rose said:
WindyHair,

and what about after you die? what then, is it just… over? doesn’t that get kind of depressing?

also, those of us who worship within a Church are not “hiding away inside a steel dome”, we are gathering within a building to be together in community as we render worship to our God.

Also, in a Catholic Church there is the Real Presence, the physical reality of our Lord and God right there in the Tabernacle. There is nowhere better to look for God.

Though, you are right also. God can be found outside on the mountains, or beside a stream. He is glorified in our enjoyment of these things.

But these things are not the end-all for us. There is even more than the most beautiful sunrise or sunset, even more than the most beautiful lake, even more than anything and everything that we could ever imagine or lay eyes on - God is that even more, He is the ultimate beauty.

That is what we will see, worship and be with eternally in heaven. That is what we hope for. Even more.

Also, we Catholics find God inside ourselves as well - right after we’ve received the Eucharist, He is physically present within us. And He calls us to be reflections of His love, to strive to be like Him and love others as He has loved us.

I hope you can see the beauty of what I am speaking about. It’s hard even for me (a poet) to express it, because the splendor of my God is ineffable.

Pax Christi,
Esther Rose

ps - I think I count … 4 also’s in the same post, and from a poet no less! I must be tired. Goodnight!
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what’s depressing about living a full life?
i don’t really care about what happens when i die.
if there is a god, i’ll let him be the judge.

but i do have thoughts of being reincarnated as a dolphin.
seems like they’re always having fun.

instead of worrying too much about what’s
beyond death’s door, maybe we should focus on the world.
i guess i’m more concerned about life than i am of death.
life is a pretty special gift. use it.
and if nature is made by god and churches by men,
where would you rather be?
 
WindyHair said:
many if not most religions
share a common belief of a god in some
form. why can’t that be enough?

why can’t it be enough to just
believe in god?
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**Because it isn’t enought for God, that’s why.👍 **
 
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