Confused.I totally agree with the RCIA. It was emotional for me to watch my classmates be baptized. I was able to watch videos on the sacraments at home, read other materials and form friendships. I think all of that is important.
It seems like every explanation gets stretched to the limit of being subject to ridicule.That’s the problem; nobody wants to wait. They think if they’ve read a homily by Pope Francis, or if they know how to make the Sign of the Cross, they’re ready to be received into the Church, and if there’s a policy that they get to be received at the moment of demand, then they will receive little if any formation whatsoever - after all, why take a course or undergo a process of conversion, if you don’t have to?
Yes, and that’s a great theory, but in practice, when you leave it up to the candidates to decide how long of a period of formation they need, they typically decide “none” and “request” (demand) the Sacraments immediately.It seems like every explanation gets stretched to the limit of being subject to ridicule.
Who said they “get to be received at the moment of demand”? Who said there should be “little if any formation”?
Certainly the Church never said that in the rite; instead it talks about doctrinal and spiritual preparation and a period of probation.
What I get from it is that RCIA should be focused on the needs of individuals. Instead of some arbitrary length of time that applies to everyone, individual situations should be recognized and accommodated.
I’m going to bow out of this conversation since I feel like I’m talking past people instead of talking with them.
I hear you.It seems like every explanation gets stretched to the limit of being subject to ridicule.
Who said they “get to be received at the moment of demand”? Who said there should be “little if any formation”?
Certainly the Church never said that in the rite; instead it talks about doctrinal and spiritual preparation and a period of probation.
What I get from it is that RCIA should be focused on the needs of individuals. Instead of some arbitrary length of time that applies to everyone, individual situations should be recognized and accommodated.
I’m going to bow out of this conversation since I feel like I’m talking past people instead of talking with them.
That’s a different situation altogether, and certainly, we receive people into the Church outside of RCIA who are already Catholic in every way except in name - usually they have a good friend who is willing to be their sponsor already, so you don’t have to go looking for someone, and they could probably teach the First Holy Communion class. They might need some instruction on how to go to Confession, but that doesn’t take very long.I hear you.
I’m thinking back to a few years ago. I had a situation of a woman who had been married to a Catholic for 40+ years. She “never” missed Sunday Mass. Her children and grandchildren were all Catholic (and good ones too). She came to every adult education session and social event. I was in the parish for about 2 years before I even discovered that she was not Catholic.
When I asked her about becoming Catholic, she said that the reason for not doing so was that she didn’t want to be treated as if her baptism lacked any meaning. In other words, she didn’t want to be lumped-in with the non-baptised. When I explained it to her, she asked “when can I become Catholic?” I responded “how about next Sunday?”
This whole discussion brings up a pet peeve of mine.That’s a different situation altogether, and certainly, we receive people into the Church outside of RCIA who are already Catholic in every way except in name - usually they have a good friend who is willing to be their sponsor already, so you don’t have to go looking for someone, and they could probably teach the First Holy Communion class. They might need some instruction on how to go to Confession, but that doesn’t take very long.
Those aren’t the ones I’m talking about.
Sorry Father, I’m probably not being very clear. The church I attended doesn’t ALLOW it and that’s where I was troubled. I think it can be very meaningful and, I love your sharing about the person who was Catholic in everything but name…that’s beautiful but I do think there’s a valid point that when left to decide “when they are ready” they may opt to join when there are serious concerns about their readiness. I think that combining the groups worked well and that’s what I was referring to when I made that comment.Confused.
It’s the RCIA that says that the already-baptized should not be brought into the Church at the Easter Vigil*; that only the unbaptized should be brought in at the Vigil; meaning that the 2 forms of RCIA should not be combined.
When you say that you “totally agree with RCIA” I don’t understand, because your other comments lead me to think that you want the combination.
*Just to qualify, this is permitted, but not encouraged.
It means, there is no formal process of formation, and no Rites of Welcome or Calling to Lenten Renewal. They also don’t come for Mystagogia.I’m not sure what outside of RCIA even means! Isn’t making a profession of faith one of the rites? I know some of the rites are optional for candidates but does it even make sense to say that a baptized Christian can enter the Church outside of RCIA?
Yes; it was a much more thorough process in those days. I have a copy of the exam they were required to write at the end of the course, and I doubt most of today’s RCIA participants would be able to pass it, today.And by the way when I received private instruction It was not a speedy thing either I went through one and a half year long instruction process by the time that I was received into the church I had went through all the holy days of obligation two of them twice and more is expected of you when you are received into the church that way.
I wonder how many Catholics baptized as infants and received other sacraments of initiation could pass it.Yes; it was a much more thorough process in those days. I have a copy of the exam they were required to write at the end of the course, and I doubt most of today’s RCIA participants would be able to pass it, today.
I guess I have to ask what you mean by formal process of formation.It means, there is no formal process of formation, and no Rites of Welcome or Calling to Lenten Renewal. They also don’t come for Mystagogia.
Hopefully, all of these things are happening together. I don’t think you can separate spiritual formation from “head knowledge,” and nor should we denigrate “head knowledge” as if it were “less than” -it’s head-knowledge that makes spiritual formation possible, in the first place. You can’t recognize Jesus in the Eucharist, if you don’t know to expect to find Him there.I guess I have to ask what you mean by formal process of formation.
I presume that you are including instruction under that general umbrella. But formation has always been somewhat personalized even within the context of RCIA because it is more about transforming the person than about head knowledge.
I’m curious, what would you label them? We need to call them something, so as to be able to invite people to attend them.The nature of instruction classes is such that much of the same information is valuable to catechumens, candidates, and baptized but un-catechized Catholics. But I think it would be best if the classes were not labeled “RCIA classes” or “formation classes” because I think that is misleading.
I think the classes for the inquiry period ought to be called “Inquiry Classes”. I suppose I would call the latter instruction Adult Faith Formation classes to be consistent with what Catholic children’s classes are called (although I liked the more generic “religious education” better.)I’m curious, what would you label them? We need to call them something, so as to be able to invite people to attend them.
It strikes me that therein lies the crux of your problem. While the Rite (at least in the US) states that the catechesis for previously baptized adults be “suited to their needs” and that it be “no more onerous than necessary” I can’t believe that it was ever intended that those determinations would be made by the candidates by and for themselves rather than by competant pastoral authority.That’s the problem; nobody wants to wait. They think if they’ve read a homily by Pope Francis, or if they know how to make the Sign of the Cross, they’re ready to be received into the Church, and **if there’s a policy that they get to be received at the moment of demand, then they will receive little if any formation whatsoever **- after all, why take a course or undergo a process of conversion, if you don’t have to?
We used to have that policy of receiving people on demand, and our experience of it was very negative - Father was finding that they were treating him like their servant, and not obeying anything he told them, since they got the idea that they could just demand anything they wanted from him (and naturally so), since they were received into the Church on demand, after all, which is why we have switched back to requiring people to undergo the RCIA.
It’s not perfect, but it’s something, at least, and they come into the Church with at least some idea of the expectations, and some knowledge of the faith.
This all wasn’t about “not liking it” it was about them not being welcomed, introduced, or even acknowledged. I simply am saying I would not have liked that and that going through RCIA was a fantastic experience I would not have wanted to miss. I had no family or friends who were Catholic and I wanted to do that. We weren’t even asked if we were baptized until the last month of the RCIA, when we were asked to get our baptism proof for the priest to look at…I am saying I prefer it that way. It was very special to all be together and I think Mystagogia (sp?) was very important as well. Nothing like taking you in and dropping you off with no follow-up.You probably won’t like this either but I did not go through rcia I had private instruction with a very good priest and the only people there when I was conditionally baptized and confirmed were the priest and my sponsor on a Friday I receive the Eucharist for the first time that following Sunday.
I’d like to do a pew poll and ask what the Immaculate Conception is. I haven’t received a correct answer yet.I really believe they can go together and most people, who will probably argue, NEED more instruction, heck people in the pews seem very ignorant of what and why the Church believes things and when asked, often have no answers.