No virus restrictions at Mass

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And I agree with you, for now, but only because we are not being asked too much, and we have the balance to executive power in the courts should such orders violate the First Amendment. We do not have to concern ourselves with totalitarian abuse of emergency authority.

On the other hand, I can see in theoretical situations where some priest, bishop, pope, have to determine whether to obey God or Man. As Catholics, we have a pretty good structure in place to keep us on an even keel.
 
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If I thought a parish was not obeying their bishop, I would contact the pastor first.

If I was not happy with the pastor’s response, I would contact the bishop.

I would NOT contact the news media, post on social media, or call the health department.
 
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Rau said:
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Weave:
This same thing has been happening at my Parish. If COVID was nearly as dangerous as we have been told half my parish should be dead. Yet here we are with no cases and no deaths. I know it’s an anecdotal account but it’s something to consider.
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The US Covid death count is around 185,000 isn’t it? At what level should Covid be considered dangerous? 🤔
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In all honesty, it’s really hard to trust these death numbers in the USA. I know many people who work in US hospitals who have said that they must put down COVID-19 as the cause of death if the person has COVID-19.

For example: I know of an instance where a person died from getting in a car accident. They tested the body (not sure if it was before or after the death) and the person had COVID-19. So the cause of death was documented as a COVID-19 death and not death due to severe trauma from the car accident.

I’ve heard many stories like this from hospital workers, where administrators were pushing for the hospitals to categories deaths as COVID-19, when common sense dictated that the person died from something else and would have still died with or without COVID-19.

All these stories from hospitals workers make it very hard for people to believe some of these numbers.

NOTE: I’m not indicating what I personally believe, but this one reason why many people (on both the right & left sides of the political aisle) are very sceptical of the reported US deaths.
 
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Rau said:
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pnewton:
First, reporting sexual abuse is required by law.
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We agree.

Public health orders are a legitimate exercise of civil authority and everyone is subject to them notwithstanding their unintended adverse impact on religious practice.
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In the United States, you could very easily have two parishes in the same dioceses doing the exact same thing, but for one parish it was legal and for the other it is not.

In the US, every state, county, & municipality have their own board of health laws, and these can even be different for COVID-19.

There are so many nuances, it’s very hard for the average people to keep up, esp if it’s for a parish you don’t belong to.
 
phil19034 said:
In all honesty, it’s really hard to trust these death numbers in the USA. I know many people who work in US hospitals who have said that they must put down COVID-19 as the cause of death if the person has COVID-19.
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Actually experts agree the number of deaths is not correct. However, they all agree that the number is considerably higher than the numbers shown and not less.
 
phil19034 said:
many people (on both the right & left sides of the political aisle) are very sceptical of the reported US deaths.
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In some places, such as NYC in the peak of the crisis, the medical staff didn’t have time or staff to evaluate every death of someone who reported possible symptoms of covid-19 prior to death. Many died at home after being told to self isolate.

It is likely the death count for Covid caused deaths was an underestimate for the first few weeks, then an overestimate after the City changed its reporting policy to reflect every death of someone with Covid.

The fact that so many deaths in NY State occurred in nursing homes strongly points to the states former policy of mandated admissions to those facilities, who they wouldn’t have accepted.
 
commenter said:
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phil19034:
many people (on both the right & left sides of the political aisle) are very sceptical of the reported US deaths.
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In some places, such as NYC in the peak of the crisis, the medical staff didn’t have time or staff to evaluate every death of someone who reported possible symptoms of covid-19 prior to death. Many died at home after being told to self isolate.

It is likely the death count for Covid caused deaths was an underestimate for the first few weeks, then an overestimate after the City changed its reporting policy to reflect every death of someone with Covid.

The fact that so many deaths in NY State occurred in nursing homes strongly points to the states former policy of mandated admissions to those facilities, who they wouldn’t have accepted.
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Yes, leaders in NYC cared more about telling people to go to Chinatown for Chinese New Year than they did about starting to have the people prepare for the virus.
 
Montrose said:
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phil19034:
In all honesty, it’s really hard to trust these death numbers in the USA. I know many people who work in US hospitals who have said that they must put down COVID-19 as the cause of death if the person has COVID-19.
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Actually experts agree the number of deaths is not correct. However, they all agree that the number is considerably higher than the numbers shown and not less.
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I never said what I personally believe. However, I just read this morning that the CDC is now saying (not sure if it’s publicly or internally) that of all the reported deaths, they estimate only 6% of the deaths to be from only COVID-19. The remaining 94% appear to underlining conditions.

It’s still tragic, but means that healthy people most likely won’t die from COVID-19 (if what I read is true).

Now if true, that doesn’t mean stop social distancing, using a mask, etc.
 
My loyalties are with those who do the right thing. A bishop who ignores a public health order in the midst of a pandemic is irresponsible. But are there any such bishops or have they all complied? You didn’t name any.

A bishop who, believing that to report a wayward priest for child abuse allegations because he believes the damage to the church would be too great and it would interfere with the provision of the sacraments, acts irresponsibly and he too should be punished. Regrettably, such bishops do (or did) exist.
 
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phil19034 said:
they estimate only 6% of the deaths to be from only COVID-19. The remaining 94% appear to underlining conditions.
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:roll_eyes:. The same is true around the world. Covid wreaked the most havoc among the elderly and others with other compromising factors.
 
According to you he certainly has authority to see to the continued supply of the sacraments and the exercise of priestly duties.
 
Rau said:
A bishop who, believing that to report a wayward priest for child abuse allegations because he believes the damage to the church would be too great and it would interfere with the provision of the sacraments, acts irresponsibly and he too should be punished. Regrettably, such bishops do (or did) exist.
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You keep bringing this up… Again, not relevant, for the two reasons mentioned above. There is not constitutional right to molest children.
 
More important - they have the responsibility to do the right thing. Almost all obey public health orders in the midst of a pandemic.

You read rather selectively. I’ve not said that.
 
pnewton said:
You keep bringing this up… Again, not relevant, for the two reasons mentioned above. There is not constitutional right to molest children.
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Not relevant. The argument is put that a bishop is at liberty to disobey laws that impinge on church activities (eg administrtingbsacraments). Clearly that is far too implistic.
 
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That would be debatable, whereas there is no doubt about a law to forbid people amassing in the midst of a pandemic.

Priests have sworn an oath to keep confessions confidential. If the law says they must divulge information about child abuse, then priests accept that their prosecution for failing to do so is just. Do they sin in ether case? I’ll leave that to God.
 
Is there Canon Law that says that the faithful must be allowed to attend Mass and to receive? I know that priests must offer Mass daily, but do the faithful have a RIGHT to attend and receive? The RIGHT to attend maskless during pandemic?
 
Well, okay, do the faithful have a RIGHT to receive the sacraments when they want? It does seem that the bishops are allowed to cancel public Masses, and I suppose delay Confession, Confirmations, baptisms, nuptials.
If the there was a canonical right to these things then the bishops couldn’t cancel / delay them, correct?

For instance, I can’t insist on going to Confession whenever I want, on demand, right? Same for Confirmation, baptism, etc.
 
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