NO vs TLM. missal vs rubrics

[JNB]

In the debates on liturgy, the TLM vs. NO debates end up being one dimensional, as if the TLM is free from abuse and the NO is nothing but abuse, but in reality, the missals themselves are not as big a issue as the rubrics of how the mass is celebrated is, the reverence if you will.

While the traditional mass of today we see is celebrated in great reverence, in no small part because of the dedication of the priests who celebrate it and the parishoners who support it, the misal can be open to abuse, a great example is the 15 minuite masses that were celebrated before Vatican II, and the big changes in rurbcis that took place in the 65 missal, a missal that is almost identical to the 62 missal. Even before the council ended, even before the the 65 missal came into use, parishes were allready celebrating the mass facing the people, in the vernacular, with laymen reading the Epistle with the laity standing for communion. Even in the early 60s, some parishes were allready taking their altar rails done, and this was done often in dis obidience to the established norms of the time. The Missal remained the same but the rubrics dramatically changed.

Flash forward today, we see what takes place in many NO masses, and that is sheer abuses, priests not even following the missal, even the masses that are by the book come across is irreverent, with Haugen/Haas hymns, a small army of EMEs and a altar server corp that is mostly female, but this is not the case with all NO parishes.

My Home parish, ran by the Dominicans only uses the NO missal, but none of the hymns are post 1960(Uses the Collegeville hymnal), no altar girls, lots of incense used, no female lectors, no EMEs and all use the rail for communion. In short, it is not the typical NO. I am of the strong belief that rubrics rather than the missal itself is at the heart of many of these problems.

In my opinion, liturgical “reform” should have stopped with the 65 missal, maybe using an expanded lectionary, while keeping the rubrics such as the priest facing “ad orientum”, using the rail, no EMEs, intact.

 

[Iohannes]

Here is a side by side comparison:

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

 

[kmktexas]

JNB:

My Home parish, ran by the Dominicans only uses the NO missal, but none of the hymns are post 1960(Uses the Collegeville hymnal), no altar girls, lots of incense used, no female lectors, no EMEs and all use the rail for communion. In short, it is not the typical NO. I am of the strong belief that rubrics rather than the missal itself is at the heart of many of these problems.

In my opinion, liturgical “reform” should have stopped with the 65 missal, maybe using an expanded lectionary, while keeping the rubrics such as the priest facing “ad orientum”, using the rail, no EMEs, intact.

Please send directions to your home parish. I would be willing to move in order to have that kind of Mass available.

I agree with you about the 1965 Missal. I don’t think it can be licitly celebrated these days but it was my favorite. I have been told that it is a compromise that pleases no one but prefer to think of it as the best of both worlds.

My second choice is a NO Mass, said reverently, with much of it said in Latin. My parish has this during Lent and this is what you often see on EWTN. Hopefully, with the new Redemptionis (sp?) document, we will see this more often.

The Traditional Latin Mass was not free of abuse and still isn’t. I recently attended a TLM that was said according to the Missal of 1957 (or is it 1956?). Is this an abuse? The indult is specifically for the 1962 Missal and that was what I expected. Small potatoes compared to barely clad liturgical dancers but it just goes to show that even the TLM is not immune from a priest who wants to do his own thing.

 

[Fullsizesedan]

*I recently attended a TLM that was said according to the Missal of 1957 (or is it 1956?). Is this an abuse? The indult is specifically for the 1962 Missal *

What’s so special about 1962? Couldn’t an indult been just as easily given for the 1956 edition? Maybe that’s the only missal edition the priest had?

 

[JNB]

Kristine, there are actually two parishes like mine in Houston TX. One is Annuncation Parish in downtown Houston, the other is ran by the Dominicans like my parish, Holy Rosary.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

JNB,

do you know that Dominican priests can celeberate the Traditional Latin Mass in the Dominican usage[a little lower than a rite]. Its different from the normal TLM and i have heard it is much more beautiful than the normal TLM. Well Dominican priests can celebrate the old Dominican Mass by themselves and don’t need an indult from the bishop.You could ask one of them to celebrate it.Well you could ask them for it but i think you won’t[its my dream]. If you want to experience the ancient Rites of the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Minimus]

JNB,

Your arguments are all sound. But consider:

When you get on an airplane, your purpose is almost always to get to somewhere else…of your selection. If the plane is hijacked, then you’ll go where the hijackers want to go. The current “liturgy” (quotes because there seems to be a plethora of the same) is constantly being hijacked. The goal of the mass seems to be lost astonishingly frequently, subsisting now to satisfy the whims of a few rather than the needs of the many. Add to that the speed with which the post-1965 changes occurred, and you have a situation fraught with ambiguity. Take Archbishop Mike Sheehan’s (Santa Fe) squib on the radio today, where he deplored (among other things) the semi-nude dress of many parishoners in his diocese. It seemed as though he had not set foot in his own cathedral! His flock have no idea what to do, whether liturgically or sartorially, at least so far as I can tell.

Blind bishops, quixotic priests, and (dare I say) semi-pagan lay activists all have prompted a widespread passion to “return” to a more stable form. I personally pray for that, and would prefer we back up at least to the 1965 missal or the 1962, but will take the NOM (in Latin) if that will cure our ills.

 

[Iohannes]

Catholic Eagle:

JNB,

do you know that Dominican priests can celeberate the Traditional Latin Mass in the Dominican usage[a little lower than a rite]. Its different from the normal TLM and i have heard it is much more beautiful than the normal TLM. Well Dominican priests can celebrate the old Dominican Mass by themselves and don’t need an indult from the bishop.You could ask one of them to celebrate it.Well you could ask them for it but i think you won’t[its my dream]. If you want to experience the ancient Rites of the Roman Catholic church.

Very true, Dominicans do not need an indult to celebrate the Dominican Use Mass.

 

[Charlemagne]

*I recently attended a TLM that was said according to the Missal of 1957 (or is it 1956?). Is this an abuse? The indult is specifically for the 1962 Missal *

What’s so special about 1962? Couldn’t an indult been just as easily given for the 1956 edition? Maybe that’s the only missal edition the priest had?

I believe a reference to St. Joseph was added to the Roman Canon in 1958. So, technically speaking, the 1956 version of the Roman Canon would be incomplete, although, I beleive, valid and licit if it was not the Priests intent to use the 1956 Missal because there are things in the 1962 Missal he doesn’t like or agree with. I don’t know what other changes occurred, although usual reasons for revising the Missal before Vatican II included adding various prayers for Masses of Saints.

 

[Fortiterinre]

I would throw in that whatever Mass is celebrated, not every celebrant will bring the same “style” or amount of reverence, even though he is not intentionally “reducing” the reverence. I know a very fine Franciscan friar, brilliant, orthodox preacher, wise confessor, excellent overall. He typically offers Mass in Latin, but speaks so quickly that it is hard to tell what language he is speaking! He doesn’t do this for the homily, but at the canon it’s lickety-split. I know an archdiocesan priest who offers Mass so slowly, with such a gaping pause at the consecration, that it really throws off any sense of flow. Both of these men are good priests, but not particularly good at their “style” of offering Mass. They are both in their 70’s, and while anyone can learn at any age, I’m not optimistic that these two will. I don’t consider these “abuses” but rather unfortunate bad habits.