"No War Is Ever Holy"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Matt25
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Matt25:
No I did not.
See? Matt25 did it on purpose. this is enough to prove that she’s not a Catholic.
She may be from any religion just trying to decept us into believing she’s a Catholic and is posting Catholic stuff. this is black(if not gray) propaganda.
It’s like I go to a Islam forum and specify my religion as “islam”
It’s not lying but still deceptive.

Matt25, if you trust our Pope so much, why don’t you just convert to Catholicism and get closer to the truth?
 
40.png
abcdefg:
See? Matt25 did it on purpose. this is enough to prove that she’s not a Catholic.
That would be the same level of proof that was so convincing about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Actually it was my whimsical tribute to the punctuational style of Cormac McCarthy author of “All the Pretty Horses”.

Does any of this make war holy?
 
holy and just/necessary are different. unless you prove the war is a sacreledge you can’t prove the war is unjust by saying it’s not holy. Is eating holy? Of course not. Why are you still eating?

btw I admit I made a mistake of confusing a holy war and a just war in a previous post. I hope you(Matt25) don’t fall into the same pit.
 
“No War Is Ever Holy” is still a fallicious claim, first you need to give a defination of “Holy” if you think only rosaries, crucifixes, medals, and statues of God, angels and saints are holy then the whole article you quoted is useless. if you think holy is righteousness. then we get back to the just war topics.

You need to prove your credibility before joining a debate. Using deceptive tactics is very underhanded. Did the snake in Eden Garden tell any lie? I don’t think so. It’s pure deception.
 
40.png
abcdefg:
holy and just/necessary are different. unless you prove the war is a sacreledge you can’t prove the war is unjust by saying it’s not holy. Is eating holy? Of course not. Why are you still eating?

btw I admit I made a mistake of confusing a holy war and a just war in a previous post. I hope you(Matt25) don’t fall into the same pit.
I’m not trying to on this thread to prove that any particular was is just or otherwise. I am posting for discussion the declaration from Lyon that “no war is ever holy”. The declaration also said “Those who legitimate their interests or justify violence in the name of God debase religion”. This applies to Christians, Muslims, Jew’s all alike.
 
40.png
Matt25:
I’m not trying to on this thread to prove that any particular was is just or otherwise. I am posting for discussion the declaration from Lyon that “no war is ever holy”. The declaration also said “Those who legitimate their interests or justify violence in the name of God debase religion”. This applies to Christians, Muslims, Jew’s all alike.
looks like we have to dicuss “justify violence” again.
What’s your faith first? If you’re not Catholic why should I waste my time discuss the just war doctrine with you?
 
looks like we have to dicuss “justify violence” again.
What’s your faith first? If you’re not Catholic why should I waste my time discuss the just war doctrine with you?
To help educate someone, also is the just war doctrine differnet to the just war theroem?
 
within Catholic discussion it’s better to use the word “Just War Doctrine” since it’s written in CCC. Both “Just War Doctrine” and “Just War Theory” refer to the one described by Saint Thomas Aquinas

I’m not sure if someone else comes out with their own “Just War Theory” but I certainly suspect so. it’s better to use “Just War Doctrine” to avoid confusion with their personal theories
 
40.png
abcdefg:
looks like we have to dicuss “justify violence” again.
What’s your faith first? If you’re not Catholic why should I waste my time discuss the just war doctrine with you?
No, you wholly miss the point of the declaration. In Catholic thought the Just War position can justify a war which the civil power declares, for just ends using proportionate means. A Holy War would be one fought with a supposedly religious motivation with the intention of supposedly advancing the cause of a particular religion.

You may not understand the difference. Nonetheless there is one. No sensible Catholic for example would argue that the war that American insurgents waged against the British in the Eighteenth Century was a Holy War. Many however, rightly or wrongly, would call it a Just War. The point of the declaration from Lyon was that faith leaders said that war should not be fought in the name of religion. They rather carefully did not say that religious people could not support wars.

My personal faith, btw, is none of your beeswax. Although it is mentioned in my profile.
 
within Catholic discussion it’s better to use the word “Just War Doctrine” since it’s written in CCC. Both “Just War Doctrine” and “Just War Theory” refer to the one described by Saint Thomas Aquinas
It’s probably just because I had R.E. lessons in a non catholic school.
 
40.png
Matt25:
A Holy War would be one fought with a supposedly religious motivation with the intention of supposedly advancing the cause of a particular religion…
Where did you get this definition? Not debating it, just I am not sure it is even in Catholic doctrine.
 
40.png
Matt25:
That is actually not my viewpoint. No one is evil in Catholic Theology. Evil is only the absence of God. Since God is never wholly absent no individual nation or institution is ever wholly evil.

:blessyou:
I suggest that you get a Cathecism of the Catholic Church. You do not know your Faith. I am afraid that you have put to much trust in Socialism and moral relativism. There is evil in Catholic Theology. There are even evil Catholic Theologians.
Pope John Paul the Great states that Socialism and Catholicism is incompatible.
I think you should know that there really is black and white, good and evil in this world.
 
40.png
gilliam:
Where did you get this definition? Not debating it, just I am not sure it is even in Catholic doctrine.
Well the words “Holy War” don’t I think appear in the Catechism. I don’t think the Catholic Church recognises the concept of Holy War. Which may be why a Catholic sponsored event could say “No War is Ever Holy”.

The definition is my own, its open to debate.
 
40.png
MommaKat:
I suggest that you get a Cathecism of the Catholic Church. You do not know your Faith. I am afraid that you have put to much trust in Socialism and moral relativism. There is evil in Catholic Theology. There are even evil Catholic Theologians.
Pope John Paul the Great states that Socialism and Catholicism is incompatible.
I think you should know that there really is black and white, good and evil in this world.
I have read the Catechism from beginning to end. You have not even read my posting properly. I did not say that evil did not exist, it very obviously does. I said “No one is evil in Catholic Theology.”. Persons have evil inclinations. They commit evil acts. But they are not themselves evil. No person is beyond the redemptive power of God. A wholly evil person would have no place for God to enter in by. No such person has ever, or could ever exist. In the Apostolic Letter Salvifici Doloris JPII said vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

Thus the reality of suffering prompts the question about the essence of evil: what is evil?

This questions seems, in a certain sense, inseparable from the theme of suffering. The Christian response to it is different, for example, from the one given by certain cultural and religious traditions which hold that existence is an evil from which one needs to be liberated. Christianity proclaims the essential *good of existence *and the good of that which exists, acknowledges the goodness of the Creator and proclaims the good of creatures. Man suffers on account of evil, which is a certain lack, limitation or distortion of good. We could say that man suffers *because of a good *in which he does not share, from which in a certain sense he is cut off, or of which he has deprived himself. He particularly suffers when he a ought"—in the normal order of things—to have a share in this good and does not have it.

Thus, in the Christian view, the reality of suffering is explained through evil, which always, in some way, refers to a good.
 
40.png
MommaKat:
I suggest that you get a Cathecism of the Catholic Church. You do not know your Faith. I am afraid that you have put to much trust in Socialism and moral relativism. There is evil in Catholic Theology. There are even evil Catholic Theologians.
Pope John Paul the Great states that Socialism and Catholicism is incompatible.
I think you should know that there really is black and white, good and evil in this world.
Just an opinion that comes to mind…

I think one of the saddest things is when people intellectually argue there is no evil or no evil people. The tragic, unintentional consequence of such a mindset is that such people often end up fighting those who fight evil. Therein lies the irony–subconsciously, they know which side is evil and they are afraid to confront it, so they take the safe route of confronting the side that isn’t evil. They confuse appeasement and misguided protest with peace.

That is why more people protest the United States and Irsrael than Islamic Terrorism. The USA sacrifices more for the world than any other nation, and is the only real opposition to Islamic terrorism, and it is “the great Satan.” Israel would love to live in peace with the Islamic terrorist seeing jihad against it, yet Israel is labeled a pariah. And Islamic terrorism is the great evil of our time, destroying an uncountable number of lives, yet so many proclaim Islam a “religion of peace.”

A little of topic, but the relative point is that only those who do not believe in good and evil, could ever believe such nonsesne as “war is never the answer” and “no war is ever holy.”
 
40.png
Matt25:
Well the words “Holy War” don’t I think appear in the Catechism. I don’t think the Catholic Church recognises the concept of Holy War. Which may be why a Catholic sponsored event could say “No War is Ever Holy”.

The definition is my own, its open to debate.
The Church has called certain wars holy in the past, so the concept is definately supported by Catholic theology. I have just never seen a definition. There may be one out there. I don’t like ‘off the cuff’ definitions because they tend to be only worth the paper they are written on (and on the Internet, that isn’t much 🙂

Might be good if people did some research on this, maybe before arguing the point in too much detail on a Catholic forum.
 
40.png
gilliam:
The Church has called certain wars holy in the past, so the concept is definately supported by Catholic theology. I have just never seen a definition. There may be one out there. I don’t like ‘off the cuff’ definitions because they tend to be only worth the paper they are written on (and on the Internet, that isn’t much 🙂

Might be good if people did some research on this, maybe before arguing the point in too much detail on a Catholic forum.
Which wars has the Church called Holy? The Popes called for a war of the cross (crusade) to retake the Holy Land but I’m not sure they referred to any war as Holy.

Even if they did it does not mean that such a notion exists in modern Catholic doctrine any more than the divine rights of King’s still has a place. Doctrine does develop you know. Aquinas expanded Augustine’s Just War Doctrine and the current Catechism refined our understanding of it still more.
 
40.png
Matt25:
Which wars has the Church called Holy? The Popes called for a war of the cross (crusade) to retake the Holy Land but I’m not sure they referred to any war as Holy…
I am not an expert in this field. A quick search has found:

The history of the Crusades is therefore intimately connected with that of the popes and the Church. These Holy Wars were essentially a papal enterprise.

A resolutions adopted at the Council of Lyons, which opened on 7 May, 1274, provided that one-tenth of all benefices accruing to all churches in the course of six years should be set aside for the benefit of the Holy Land, the object being to secure the means of carrying on the holy war.

What the council had to say is here.To prevent this holy proposal being impeded or delayed, we strictly order all prelates of churches, each in his own locality, diligently to warn and induce those who have abandoned the cross to resume it, and them and others who have taken up the cross, and those who may still do so, to carry out their vows to the Lord. And if necessary they shall compel them to do this without any backsliding, by sentences of excommunication against their persons and of interdict on their lands, excepting only those persons who find themselves faced with an impediment of such a kind that their vow deservedly ought to be commuted or deferred in accordance with the directives of the apostolic see. In order that nothing connected with this business of Jesus Christ be omitted, we will and order patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, abbots and others who have the care of souls to preach the cross zealously to those entrusted to them.

The cross referred to is the cross of the crusade, for the Council continues:

Let them beseech kings, dukes, princes, margraves, counts, barons and other magnates, as well as the communes of cities, vills and towns – in the name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit, the one, only, true and eternal God – that those who do not go in person to the aid of the holy Land should contribute, according to their means an appropriate number of fighting men together with their necessary expenses for three years, for the remission of their sins, in accordance with what has already been explained in general letters and will be explained below for still greater assurance. We wish to share in this remission not only those who contribute ships of their own but also those who are zealous enough to build them for this purpose. To those who refuse, if there happen to be any who are so ungrateful to our lord God, we firmly declare in the name of the apostle that they should know that they will have to answer to us for this on the last day of final judgment before the fearful judge. Let them consider beforehand, however, with what knowledge and with what security it was that they were able to confess before the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, to whom the Father gave all things into his hands, if in this business, which is as it were peculiarly his, they refuse to serve him who was crucified for sinners, by whose beneficence they are sustained and indeed by whose blood they have been redeemed.

I don’t think there is any doubt that the Crusade was considered a holy war by the Church, from the top down.

Blessed Angelo was appointed Apostolic Nuncio by Pope Sixtus IV, and commissioned to preach the holy war against the invaders.
Even if they did it does not mean that such a notion exists in modern Catholic doctrine any more than the divine rights of King’s still has a place. Doctrine does develop you know. Aquinas expanded Augustine’s Just War Doctrine and the current Catechism refined our understanding of it still more.
I am not so sure a just war is not a holy war. That question, in my mind, is still open for debate.
 
40.png
gilliam:
Where did you get this definition? Not debating it, just I am not sure it is even in Catholic doctrine.
don’t care if it’s in Catholic doctrine of Muslim doctrine, Matt25 is even’t not a Catholic.

Matt25 probably means no war by Christians are jihad.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top