W
Writer
Guest
Ani Ibi:
That is one fascinating observation, Ani Ibi…
- Status
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Steven Merten:
Without the slaughter and without the imperial nonchalence, Ghandi would have accomplished nothing.
Steven Merten:
While I agree that colonialism fostered inequities and harm of its own, the situation in India had little to do with colonialism. It was a power grab along the lines of race and religion, using the scapegoat of colonialism to camouflage its purpose and methods. It was not a case of oppression being wrong. It was a case of who had the power to oppress.
Britain’s alleged respect for human life had little to do with the success of Ghandi’s fasting. The fact that, as Ghandi fasted, millions of Indians rioted and slaughtered while Mountbatten concerned himself with his dalliances, has very much to do with the success of Ghandi’s fasting.
Without the slaughter and without the imperial nonchalence, Ghandi would have accomplished nothing.
Steven Merten:
The British got along fine with the Indian ruling class because they shared aims and methods. Then the Indian ruling class took the reins of power and civil organization into their own hands and asked the British and all other ‘Europeans’ to leave. Since then India has had the most per capita incidence of millionaires in the world and some of the most desperate poverty.
While I agree that colonialism fostered inequities and harm of its own, the situation in India had little to do with colonialism. It was a power grab along the lines of race and religion, using the scapegoat of colonialism to camouflage its purpose and methods. It was not a case of oppression being wrong. It was a case of who had the power to oppress.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Not turning the other cheek places my body parallel to the body of the attacker. This is an offensive stance. While positioning my arms so as to maximize opportunity to strike back, it also exposes more of my body area – particularly the vulnerable front – to continued strikes from the person attacking me.
Turning the other cheek places my body perpendicular to the body of the attacker. This is a defensive stance. My left arm is in a position to block and defend my flank. However my attacker cannot reach the vulnerable front of my body. Force is maximized when it is applied at 90 degrees to its target. So, even if my attacker were to reach the vulnerable front my body, the strikes would be imposed at angles far less than 90 degrees.
Again, turning the other cheek minimizes the ability of the attacker to impose further harm.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Ani Ibi:
Interesting but highly unlikely that this was what Jesus is teaching.
How does handing over your shirt to the one who takes your coat minimize the damage of being robbed? Is Jesus teaching that if you burden your enemy down with all your possessions, he will eventually tire and fall asleep so you can get your stuff back? Jesus tells us not to try and minimize the loss but to add to the loss and not to ask for it back.
NAB LUK 6:29 Love of One’s enemy
When someone slaps you on one cheek, turn and give him the other; when someone takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to all who beg from you. **When a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back. **
Hello Ani Ibi,
Interesting but highly unlikely that this was what Jesus is teaching.
How does handing over your shirt to the one who takes your coat minimize the damage of being robbed? Is Jesus teaching that if you burden your enemy down with all your possessions, he will eventually tire and fall asleep so you can get your stuff back? Jesus tells us not to try and minimize the loss but to add to the loss and not to ask for it back.
NAB LUK 6:29 Love of One’s enemy
When someone slaps you on one cheek, turn and give him the other; when someone takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to all who beg from you. **When a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back. **
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
I think that in all of these scenarios Jesus is the teacher. Some of what Jesus teaches is informative. Some of what he teaches in transformative. Often Jesus will say something that stops us dead in our tracks. Why? Because our best thinking got us nowhere.
Demanding something back is living in the past. Re-acquiring it is different from demanding it.
In all of these discussions, no one has even attempted to discuss justice. Everything has been about peace and mercy. God is just as well as merciful. And we are made in His image. Seeking justice is not easy. My priest actually told me that my responsibility as a Catholic was to seek justice and that it was not going to be easy. To seek peace and mercy without seeking justice for me equates to kumbaya theology, something which seems blythlely impervious to the misery of others.
As for the turning of the cheek, I actually heard a rabbi explain it this way. Rabbis often have penetrating insights into Scripture. Not to say that they are always right. Just that they are usually powerfully thought-provoking.
Easy. You can get a new coat. You may not be able to get a new life if you decide to play into the violence further. The point is that, in a confrontation, who is control? If a person can’t control himself herself, then how can he she hope to control another person? Jesus always stayed on message no matter what was happening around him.
Steven Merten:
Hhhhmmm. Yes. I guess. I actually know people who would literally load themselves up with stuff until they can’t move.
I think that in all of these scenarios Jesus is the teacher. Some of what Jesus teaches is informative. Some of what he teaches in transformative. Often Jesus will say something that stops us dead in our tracks. Why? Because our best thinking got us nowhere.
Demanding something back is living in the past. Re-acquiring it is different from demanding it.
In all of these discussions, no one has even attempted to discuss justice. Everything has been about peace and mercy. God is just as well as merciful. And we are made in His image. Seeking justice is not easy. My priest actually told me that my responsibility as a Catholic was to seek justice and that it was not going to be easy. To seek peace and mercy without seeking justice for me equates to kumbaya theology, something which seems blythlely impervious to the misery of others.
As for the turning of the cheek, I actually heard a rabbi explain it this way. Rabbis often have penetrating insights into Scripture. Not to say that they are always right. Just that they are usually powerfully thought-provoking.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Ani Ibi:
To wear your opponant out until you can give him the old “eye for an eye”, well I don’t think the Rabbi has Christ’s intentions in mind. I would venture to say the Rabbi was countering Jesus’ teachings.
I think that to turn Christ’s teaching on how to love one’s neighbor into a marshal arts defense class really detracts from His teachings.
NAB LUK 6:29 Love of One’s enemy When someone slaps you on one cheek, turn and give him the other; when someone takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to all who beg from you. When a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back. Do to others what you would have them do to you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, how can you claim any credit? Sinners do as much. If you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what merit is ther in it for you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.
Love your enemy and do good; lend without expecting repayment. Then will your recompense be great. You will rightly be called sons of the Most High, since he himself is good to the ungrateful and the wicked.
Be compassionate, as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Pardon, and you shall be pardoned. Give, and it shall be given to you. Good measure pressed down, shaken together, running over, will they pour into the fold of your garment. For the measure you measure with will be measured back to you.
And how does offering to walk with your enemy two miles make one safer than walking with your enemy one mile?
To wear your opponant out until you can give him the old “eye for an eye”, well I don’t think the Rabbi has Christ’s intentions in mind. I would venture to say the Rabbi was countering Jesus’ teachings.
I think that to turn Christ’s teaching on how to love one’s neighbor into a marshal arts defense class really detracts from His teachings.
NAB LUK 6:29 Love of One’s enemy When someone slaps you on one cheek, turn and give him the other; when someone takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to all who beg from you. When a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back. Do to others what you would have them do to you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, how can you claim any credit? Sinners do as much. If you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what merit is ther in it for you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.
Love your enemy and do good; lend without expecting repayment. Then will your recompense be great. You will rightly be called sons of the Most High, since he himself is good to the ungrateful and the wicked.
Be compassionate, as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Pardon, and you shall be pardoned. Give, and it shall be given to you. Good measure pressed down, shaken together, running over, will they pour into the fold of your garment. For the measure you measure with will be measured back to you.
W
Writer
Guest
Steven Merten:
I tend to agree with Steve on this one, but I do think this is a fascinating observation. Whether that is the case, or not, I still don’t believe that turn the other cheek applies to nations. If it did, it would be quite perverse: *Thank you for striking New York. For your convenience, Seattle is ready now for an attack. Have a nice day! *That makes no sense, but this is what Matt would have us believe and strive for, if I am understanding him accurately.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Writer,
I think that to understand Jesus teaching on turning the other cheek one can look at how Moses turns the other cheek and loves his enemies. I can only feel that, second only to Jesus death on the cross, is Moses when he turns the other cheek and offers up his eternal soul for those whom have hated him.
Moses came down Mt Sinai with God’s ten commandments. He carried with him the commandment to love God with all your heart. He carried with him the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself and take no revenge. He carried with him the commandment ‘Thou Shalt not kill’.
Then Moses kills three thousand of his country men for the sake of peace. Though Moses reproves his fellow man by the sword he carries no grudge, vengeance or violence in his heart for his fellow man. Moses, as peacemaker, leads Levite troops into combat against a faction of Israelites who, through sin, are at war against God. Then Moses turns the other cheek and offers up his very eternal soul to make peace between God and those Israelites who have hated Him. Here is Moses great love for fellow man.
NAB EXO 32:7
With that, the LORD said to Moses, “Go down at once to your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, for they have become depraved. They have soon turned aside from the way I pointed out to them, making for themselves a molten calf and worshiping it, sacrificing to it and crying out, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ I see how stiffnecked this people is,” continued the LORD to Moses. “Let me alone, then, that my wrath may blaze up against them to consume them. Then I will make of you a great nation.”
But Moses implored the LORD, his God, saying, “Why, O LORD, should your wrath blaze up against your own people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with such great power and with so strong a hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent he brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains and exterminate them from the face of the earth’? Let your blazing wrath die down; relent in punishing your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, and how you swore to them by your own self, saying, ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky; and all this land that I promised, I will give your descendants as their perpetual heritage.’” So the LORD relented in the punishment he had threatened to inflict on his people. Moses then turned and came down the mountain with the two tablets that were written on both sides, front and back; tablets that were made by God, having inscriptions on them that were engraved by God himself.
When Moses realized that, to the scornful joy of their foes, Aaron had let the people run wild, he stood at the gate of the camp and cried,** “Whoever is for the Lord, let him come to me!” All the Levites then rallied to him, and he told them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Put your sword on your hip everyone of you! Now go up and down the camp, from gate to gate, and slay your own kinsmen, your friends and neighbors!” The Levites carried out the command of Moses, and theat day there fell about three thousand of the people. **Then Moses said, “Today you have been dedicated to the LORD, for you were against your own sons and kinsmen, to bring a blessing upon yourselves this day.”**EXO 32 continued. The Atonement. **On the next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a grave sin. I will go up to the LORD, then; perhaps I may be able to make atonement for your sin." So Moses went back to the LORD and said, **“Ah, this people has indeed committed a grave sin in making a god of gold for themselves! If you would only *forgive ***their sin! If you will not, then strike me out of the book that you have written.”
God tells Moses that He will not strike his name out of the eternal book of life. It is only the wicked who do not repent who will not enter into Christ’s peace.
The LORD answered, "Him only who has sinned against me will I strike out of my book. Now, go and lead the people whither I have told you. My angel will go before you. When it is time for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." Thus the LORD smote the people for having had Aaron make the calf for them. NAB REV 3:5 "The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.
I think that to understand Jesus teaching on turning the other cheek one can look at how Moses turns the other cheek and loves his enemies. I can only feel that, second only to Jesus death on the cross, is Moses when he turns the other cheek and offers up his eternal soul for those whom have hated him.
Moses came down Mt Sinai with God’s ten commandments. He carried with him the commandment to love God with all your heart. He carried with him the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself and take no revenge. He carried with him the commandment ‘Thou Shalt not kill’.
Then Moses kills three thousand of his country men for the sake of peace. Though Moses reproves his fellow man by the sword he carries no grudge, vengeance or violence in his heart for his fellow man. Moses, as peacemaker, leads Levite troops into combat against a faction of Israelites who, through sin, are at war against God. Then Moses turns the other cheek and offers up his very eternal soul to make peace between God and those Israelites who have hated Him. Here is Moses great love for fellow man.
NAB EXO 32:7
With that, the LORD said to Moses, “Go down at once to your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, for they have become depraved. They have soon turned aside from the way I pointed out to them, making for themselves a molten calf and worshiping it, sacrificing to it and crying out, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ I see how stiffnecked this people is,” continued the LORD to Moses. “Let me alone, then, that my wrath may blaze up against them to consume them. Then I will make of you a great nation.”
But Moses implored the LORD, his God, saying, “Why, O LORD, should your wrath blaze up against your own people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with such great power and with so strong a hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent he brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains and exterminate them from the face of the earth’? Let your blazing wrath die down; relent in punishing your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, and how you swore to them by your own self, saying, ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky; and all this land that I promised, I will give your descendants as their perpetual heritage.’” So the LORD relented in the punishment he had threatened to inflict on his people. Moses then turned and came down the mountain with the two tablets that were written on both sides, front and back; tablets that were made by God, having inscriptions on them that were engraved by God himself.
When Moses realized that, to the scornful joy of their foes, Aaron had let the people run wild, he stood at the gate of the camp and cried,** “Whoever is for the Lord, let him come to me!” All the Levites then rallied to him, and he told them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Put your sword on your hip everyone of you! Now go up and down the camp, from gate to gate, and slay your own kinsmen, your friends and neighbors!” The Levites carried out the command of Moses, and theat day there fell about three thousand of the people. **Then Moses said, “Today you have been dedicated to the LORD, for you were against your own sons and kinsmen, to bring a blessing upon yourselves this day.”**EXO 32 continued. The Atonement. **On the next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a grave sin. I will go up to the LORD, then; perhaps I may be able to make atonement for your sin." So Moses went back to the LORD and said, **“Ah, this people has indeed committed a grave sin in making a god of gold for themselves! If you would only *forgive ***their sin! If you will not, then strike me out of the book that you have written.”
God tells Moses that He will not strike his name out of the eternal book of life. It is only the wicked who do not repent who will not enter into Christ’s peace.
The LORD answered, "Him only who has sinned against me will I strike out of my book. Now, go and lead the people whither I have told you. My angel will go before you. When it is time for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." Thus the LORD smote the people for having had Aaron make the calf for them. NAB REV 3:5 "The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.
J
Jay74
Guest
Writer said:
And to really test whether or not you’re evil, our entire goverment will be in washington DC on January 20 for the State of the Union. We are going on a limb, but we trust you’re hearts will melt as will give you this second chance to exhibit peace.
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
AMEN and Thank you for saying this.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
I simply added the info on tiring to point out that someone who is not in control of himself – that is, who is swept away by violent emotions and desires – tires easily. When he is tired and sees that you are no threat, do you not think he or she might be more amenable to reasonable discourse?
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
I worked for years with at-risk groups. Much of our training in defusing violent situations had to do with distance management and body language. You can’t talk to someone who isn’t listening, but you can communicate with that person.
This requires neither the fight reflex nor the flight reflex. It requires you to be close enough to offer ‘proximity’ or ‘engagement’ and far enough to avoid being perceived as a threat. Turning back in order to ‘offer the other cheek’ achieves the correct distance and non-aggressive body posture. Instantly and unequivocally.
Just because you may not be familiar with this technology, doesn’t mean that it is not valid.
The quote you give does not mean that we communicate to other people that stealing someone’s coat is good. What Jesus is doing is giving the coat and taking the man’s soul. It is souls which Jesus wants. Souls are more important than coats. Spiritual economics, if you will.
Often the teaching in a passage is not soley in the information contained in that passage. It is in the encounter and the transformation that takes place as a result of the encounter. This is in my opinion the effect of the Real Presence.
Teaching or attempting to modify someone’s behaviour cannot be done in the absence of relationship. Once the nature of the relationship is established, then the nature of the teaching can be established. What I have noted about Catholicism is that it is profoundly relational.
Not following you. Could you explain?
Steven Merten:
I think I have already said that keeping control of oneself is keeping control of the situation. The idea is not to go ropey-dope and wait for the attacker to tucker himself out so that you can knock him senseless. Who said anything about an eye for an eye?
I simply added the info on tiring to point out that someone who is not in control of himself – that is, who is swept away by violent emotions and desires – tires easily. When he is tired and sees that you are no threat, do you not think he or she might be more amenable to reasonable discourse?
Steven Merten:
Fallacy of intention. The Rabbi does not have to have Christ’s intentions in mind. The rabbi’s explanation must be examined on its own merits.
Steven Merten:
Well, venture then. It could well be that the Rabbi was giving a historical perspective on the behaviour.
Steven Merten:
It’s just physics. And I explain it this way to underline that the person who turns the other cheek is not being led down the garden path; not being yanked around by a ring through the nose. Being peaceful is not acquiescing to the violent demands of out-of-control people. Neither is it running away. It is the willingness to be in harm’s way and to be control of oneself and to keep both these in tension; in balance.
I worked for years with at-risk groups. Much of our training in defusing violent situations had to do with distance management and body language. You can’t talk to someone who isn’t listening, but you can communicate with that person.
This requires neither the fight reflex nor the flight reflex. It requires you to be close enough to offer ‘proximity’ or ‘engagement’ and far enough to avoid being perceived as a threat. Turning back in order to ‘offer the other cheek’ achieves the correct distance and non-aggressive body posture. Instantly and unequivocally.
Just because you may not be familiar with this technology, doesn’t mean that it is not valid.
The quote you give does not mean that we communicate to other people that stealing someone’s coat is good. What Jesus is doing is giving the coat and taking the man’s soul. It is souls which Jesus wants. Souls are more important than coats. Spiritual economics, if you will.
Often the teaching in a passage is not soley in the information contained in that passage. It is in the encounter and the transformation that takes place as a result of the encounter. This is in my opinion the effect of the Real Presence.
Teaching or attempting to modify someone’s behaviour cannot be done in the absence of relationship. Once the nature of the relationship is established, then the nature of the teaching can be established. What I have noted about Catholicism is that it is profoundly relational.
M
Matt25
Guest
But they can oppose invaders, and those who violate international law?
M
Matt25
Guest
Steven Merten:
When was the last time the Swiss Guards actually killed anyone? Did they shoot the man who attempted to assasinate Pope John Paul II?
M
Matt25
Guest
The title is the title of an article posted from Zenit the Vatican news agency. They got the title from a phrase in the declaration issued by religious leaders gathered in Lyon, at the conclusion of the three-day meeting “Men and Religions.”
The theme of the meeting was “The Courage to Forge a Spiritual Humanism of Peace.” It was organized by the Rome-based Community of Sant’Egidio (santegidio.org/en/index.html) and the Archdiocese of Lyon and attended by leading figures of some of the world’s major religions.
You may think the title intellectually dishonest. Take it up with Zenit. Forum rules prevent me from choosing my own titles for posted articles.
It’s not about pacifism if you read the story zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=76484 it is perfectly clear, even to the meanest intellegence, that the point being made is that religion should not be used to justify wars.
Self obsessed North Americans may think that this is directed against them. Actually I think the point was that the declaration, signed in part by Muslim leaders, said that attacks like those on the London Underground were unacceptable to all religions without exception. Immediately prior to the sentence you complain of it says “Those who legitimate their interests or justify violence in the name of God debase religion.” That is something I suspect all people of goodwill should agree on.
If you want to debate pacifism why not start a new thread rather than misrepresent the purpose of this one?
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Around 1987 or so that the Vatican Swiss Guard killed a couple of people. Vatican Swiss Guard would have never killed anyone if the Pope had sent them home in favor of your non-viloent options, do we agree?
More than the numbers of how many Vatican Swiss Guard have killed, it is the Pope demanding that violence is never the answer, yet he will never part with the presence of violence to protect himself.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
:ehh:
Why might we think that? Don’t you point out that the article itself touches on the London bombings?
:ehh:
V
vluvski
Guest
Interesting side note about “turning the other cheek.” This is actually a little bit of a two-edged sword.
In Jesus’ time, it was only permissible to strike with your right hand. In order to strike the other cheek, the offender would have to either use his left hand, or use the back of his hand. Both of these fighting tactics were considered ‘dirty’ and basically only fit for a Gentile or a slave. If the offender wished to take up the person’s offer for the other cheek, he would have to basically say, “I’m no better than a slave.”
In Jesus’ time, it was only permissible to strike with your right hand. In order to strike the other cheek, the offender would have to either use his left hand, or use the back of his hand. Both of these fighting tactics were considered ‘dirty’ and basically only fit for a Gentile or a slave. If the offender wished to take up the person’s offer for the other cheek, he would have to basically say, “I’m no better than a slave.”
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Writer,
What do you think of my presentation of Moses love for freind and enemy alike in post 147?
Moses could have taken the easy route which would have been for God to destroy all the Israelites in the desert and start again to build a nation through Moses. When his enemies were scorning him Moses could have said, “Watch this!” as fires from heaven consumed the whole body of people. Yet Moses did not.
Moses killed fellow country men to bring peace between God and the Israelites. Moses turned the other cheek and offered up his eternal soul for the atonement of sins to bring both freind and enemy Israelites back to peace with God and to spare their lives from God’s wrath.
Can you see how what Moses did, even when killing his countrymen, was done out of love and compassion for his neighbor and enemies? Can you see how Moses never bore hatred or vengence in his heart? It is this doing what is best for even your enemies, which sometimes involves killing, which Jesus is talking about in His love your enemies teaching.
What do you think?
What do you think of my presentation of Moses love for freind and enemy alike in post 147?
Moses could have taken the easy route which would have been for God to destroy all the Israelites in the desert and start again to build a nation through Moses. When his enemies were scorning him Moses could have said, “Watch this!” as fires from heaven consumed the whole body of people. Yet Moses did not.
Moses killed fellow country men to bring peace between God and the Israelites. Moses turned the other cheek and offered up his eternal soul for the atonement of sins to bring both freind and enemy Israelites back to peace with God and to spare their lives from God’s wrath.
Can you see how what Moses did, even when killing his countrymen, was done out of love and compassion for his neighbor and enemies? Can you see how Moses never bore hatred or vengence in his heart? It is this doing what is best for even your enemies, which sometimes involves killing, which Jesus is talking about in His love your enemies teaching.
What do you think?
W
Writer
Guest
Steven Merten:
Your observations also demonstrate how one can desire to be a soldier, or desire to take up arms in general, for either good (protecting your countrymen, for example) or evil reasons (desiring simply to hurt others). The underlying attitude and mindset can’t be ignored.
Thank you for those insightful observations, Steve. I think you have raised valid points here. The story of Moses is certainly does not deny the reality of needing to take up arms for the protection of your fellow men, and his attitude demonstrates that he was not doing it out of hate, but more so out of love for his fellow men.
Your observations also demonstrate how one can desire to be a soldier, or desire to take up arms in general, for either good (protecting your countrymen, for example) or evil reasons (desiring simply to hurt others). The underlying attitude and mindset can’t be ignored.
K
koda
Guest
But what is a nation but many individuals?
Also, what about the innocent that are killed in war - the “collateral damage” that even our side is sometimes guilty of inflicting?
- Status