No Way the Pope was "Surprised" at the DC Mass

[Spiller]

I have to chuckle when I think about the comments of some “experts.” Can you imagine the Pope and his staff not being aware of, and approving everything that took place at the DC Mass? I certainly cannot. Can you imagine that things were changed greatly on-the-fly while the Mass was being celebrated? Again, I cannot. Absolutely no way – the respect for the Pontiff and the Church is simply too great.

While I didn’t care a great deal for some of the music – that’s my opinion, my personal opinion.

I think some need to come to grips with the fact that their personal tastes (just like my own) are not necessarily “better” than what the Church instructs and allows. Further I think that some need to stop feeling that their interpretations of the Pope’s writing are necessarily the only accurate ones.

Again while some of the music was not necessarily my favorite, I have the faith and the breadth of vision to know the Pope wasn’t surprised nor did the Mass offend even a fraction of those it greatly nourished (Catholic and non-Catholic) – both spiritually and emotionally.

Viva el Papa!

 

[benedictgal]

Spiller, I am going to throw a question at you. I’ve just read your profile. In fairness to the inquiry you made of me, now it is my turn.

Have you ever planned a liturgy, whether it is for your own parish or for your diocese? Do you know how much of a challlenge it is?

I submit to you, that planning a huge event like the liturgies for the Holy Father’s visit is a daunting task, especially, since there are a lot of issues to cover, and, there is a huge ocean that separates us.

Logistics aside, I share with you my experiences in planning liturgical celebrations for my diocese. More often than not, the bishop trusted my judgment for the readings, the music, the format for the order of worship and other logistical concerns. It was a good faith effort on both our parts, notwithstanding some folks who managed to hijack a couple of the liturgies by pushing their weight around.

What was approved, I believe, was done in principle. Perhaps Msgr. Marini and the Papal party took the good faith approach, assuming that the songs chosen were appropriate and deemed worthy for inclusion in the Mass. Perhaps their main concern was that they would be freed from doctrinal error. Incidentally, there is organ accompanyment for songs like Bienaventurados and others in the OCP arsenal. However, what looks good on paper doesn’t always come out as such when one actually experiences it.

 

[Spiller]

Spiller, I am going to throw a question at you. I’ve just read your profile. In fairness to the inquiry you made of me, now it is my turn.

Shoot.

Have you ever planned a liturgy, whether it is for your own parish or for your diocese? Do you know how much of a challlenge it is?

I have and I do and my CV is no more applicable to planning liturgies than your own.

I submit to you, that planning a huge event like the liturgies for the Holy Father’s visit is a daunting task, especially, since there are a lot of issues to cover, and, there is a huge ocean that separates us.

That’s axiomatic.

Logistics aside, I share with you my experiences in planning liturgical celebrations for my diocese. More often than not, the bishop trusted my judgment for the readings, the music, the format for the order of worship and other logistical concerns. It was a good faith effort on both our parts, notwithstanding some folks who managed to hijack a couple of the liturgies by pushing their weight around.

And? Again, you can bet the Pope and His team not only knew what was going to transpire (in terms of music and such), but in large part they directed and definitely approved what transpired.

What was approved, I believe, was done in principle. Perhaps Msgr. Marini and the Papal party took the good faith approach, assuming that the songs chosen were appropriate and deemed worthy for inclusion in the Mass. Perhaps their main concern was that they would be freed from doctrinal error. Incidentally, there is organ accompanyment for songs like Bienaventurados and others in the OCP arsenal. However, what looks good on paper doesn’t always come out as such when one actually experiences it.

No way. Again, these Masses are simply too important to not sweat the details. Bet the ranch that the planning for this Mass included micro-micro detail! I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Pope and his team signed-off on the final plan, after having given a great deal of (name removed by moderator)ut.

NOW with 20/20 vision in retrospect, there MIGHT be things that the Pope and his team would do different next time, but that’s always the case with live events. There might also have been things that also didn’t go as well as expected, but I cannot even begin to imagine that such instances happened on purpose – in order to deviate from the approved plan.

 

[down_under]

Shoot.

I have and I do and my CV is no more applicable to planning liturgies than your own.

That’s axiomatic.

And? Again, you can bet the Pope and His team not only knew what was going to transpire (in terms of music and such), but in large part they directed and definitely approved what transpired.

No way. Again, these Masses are simply too important to not sweat the details. Bet the ranch that the planning for this Mass included micro-micro detail! I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Pope and his team signed-off on the final plan, after having given a great deal of (name removed by moderator)ut.

NOW with 20/20 vision in retrospect, there MIGHT be things that the Pope and his team would do different next time, but that’s always the case with live events. There might also have been things that also didn’t go as well as expected, but I cannot even begin to imagine that such instances happened on purpose – in order to deviate from the approved plan.

no benedictal got it in one. the event was so big there is no way of micro manageing every detail. and things did happen that the pope himself was probably either not aware of, or were not aware were going to be done in that way. given this popes stance on liturgy over the last few decades and several of the things he has written and said about it. some of those things were not what he would have liked to have seen. and most of the commentators are about right.

 

[Spiller]

no benedictal got it in one. the event was so big there is no way of micro manageing every detail. and things did happen that the pope himself was probably either not aware of, or were not aware were going to be done in that way. given this popes stance on liturgy over the last few decades and several of the things he has written and said about it. some of those things were not what he would have liked to have seen. and most of the commentators are about right.

Not true.

Sure some people may have not hit their marks perfectly, but to suggest the Mass was not approved by the Holy See in detail is simply wrong. Further to then suggest even with a plan the Mass then changed on the fly does not pass the smell test.

 

[Maritsa]

Is it possible that he knew what would happen to some degree but after prayer and discernment was told that it was better to have 50,000 Catholics in the US who were thrilled to see him in person and probably millions more around the world watching him on TV and hearing his homily than it was for him to be the one to do something about the music?

Look at the outrage across the country! He didn’t need to say anything. It spoke for itself.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he prayed about what level of control he should exert and was directed by God. He can’t do everything. He has a calling and he has to choose which areas he is needed. The music is being addressed all over. Obviously he wasn’t needed for that. It would be better to put him to work elsewhere. Instead of hearing all over the news how he was a terrible and oppresive man who didn’t allow the Americans to have multicultural music, we instead have people respecting him for his stance on the sexual abuse cases, respecting him for his stance on the importance of life most especially among the smallest and weakest like disabled children, and respecting him for his stance on the need to be Catholic in Catholic education. We have the entire country focusing on Catholic values and respecting the Church’s teachings.

Faithful Catholics are also doing something about the music. It sounds like God knew what he was doing to me.

 

[mdgspencer]

No–I have seen planners providing such unpleasant surprises.
During one visit of Pope John Paul II he met with a crowd of religious. Someone had scheduled a dissident sister to give a speech. She loudly proclaimed that women were being kept down by the church because they were not becoming priests, and then (still on the stage) she said that the sisters there who felt they were being called to the priesthood to stand up. And some few of them did stand up there. The pope then only said that Mary is a model of obedience. This meeting became a great embarrassment.

 

[hasikelee]

Sheesh, I didn’t have the ability to even cooperate in planning my wedding music. I left it solely to the choir director, who thankfully put together such a collection that it brought most of us to tears at time including me.

I can’t imagine the Pope planning music for this. That’s wayyy too much micromanagement.

 

[Joysong]

Spiller:

I have to chuckle when I think about the comments of some “experts.” Can you imagine the Pope and his staff not being aware of, and approving everything that took place at the DC Mass? I certainly cannot.

The Pope personally chose to celebrate the Votive Mass of the Holy Spirit and made his choice known to others. The ethnic and cultural aspects were simply an effort to replicate the wonderment and unity experienced at the first Pentecost.

I think some need to come to grips with the fact that their personal tastes (just like my own) are not necessarily “better” than what the Church instructs and allows. Further I think that some need to stop feeling that their interpretations of the Pope’s writing are necessarily the only accurate ones.

A particular poster delights in quoting from Sacramentum Caritatis, and assumes nobody else has read it. Problem is, she only cites minor parts of it in order to justify her complaints, completely overlooking the implications of the whole document.

1. The first and fundamental mission that we receive from the sacred mysteries we celebrate is that of bearing witness by our lives. The wonder we experience at the gift God has made to us in Christ gives new impulse to our lives and commits us to becoming witnesses of his love. We become witnesses when, through our actions, words and way of being, Another makes himself present.

1. The more ardent the love for the Eucharist in the hearts of the Christian people, the more clearly will they recognize the goal of all mission: to bring Christ to others. Not just a theory or a way of life inspired by Christ, but the gift of his very person. Anyone who has not shared the truth of love with his brothers and sisters has not yet given enough.

1. The eucharistic mystery thus gives rise to a service of charity towards neighbour, which "consists in the very fact that, in God and with God, I love even the person whom I do not like or even know. This can only take place on the basis of an intimate encounter with God, an encounter which has become a communion of will, affecting even my feelings. Then I learn to look on this other person not simply with my eyes and my feelings, but from the perspective of Jesus Christ. In all those I meet,
   I recognize brothers or sisters for whom the Lord gave his life, loving them “to the end” (Jn 13:1). Our communities, when they celebrate the Eucharist, must become ever more conscious that the sacrifice of Christ is for all, and that the Eucharist thus compels all who believe in him to become “bread that is broken” for others, and to work for the building of a more just and fraternal world.

The whole event of Pope Benedict’s Mass has engendered the most despicable verbal attacks on other Christians who do not concur with the opinions of self-proclaimed liturgical experts, who of course, KNOW the document. Maybe some can profess to have studied it, but the resulting action is dead in the water, nonexistent as far as proof of living charity in the heart goes. I invite any who feel they are proficient in liturgy to study the rest of the document as I quoted above, and measure their actions and attitudes against what Pope Benedict really said.

Spiller, this was not directed to you, but to those who have spent the entire day on their keyboard, publicly denouncing a sacred liturgy and those who prepared it, and are poised to continue it in your thread, as well.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .
I can’t imagine the Pope planning music for this. That’s wayyy too much micromanagement.

As I recall, he sent representatives specifically to coordinate the liturgies so there would be none of the surprises which had occurred in the past.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

First. . .I think it was wonderful to see the Holy Father. Yay!

Second. . .most of you know my personal preference is for the more ‘traditional’ hymns but the accent is on ‘personal’. As a person with some 45 years of musical background (starting with playing the piano at age 5), I am not the average person (not that there is anything wrong with the average person ) when it comes to music. So perhaps what is going on with some people who have a lot of musicality and knowledge and a personal preference is what is driving some of these posts. . .both the ‘pro’ and ‘con.’

My sister is as musical as I and a few years older. She started playing the guitar at age 12. She does semi-pro ‘folk’ music, writes her own stuff too. She has a respect for the ‘traditional’ music but she is just as comfortable, if not more so, with the Haugen-Haas crowd because it reasonates with her personal preference. The folksy, artsy style that she herself writes is what she ‘hears’ in that music. So people attacking that ‘style’ almost seem to, in her mind, attack her personally.

Now I can appreciate to an extent (because of hearing my sister’s work) the Haugen-Haas stuff and the other ‘moderns’. There is some decent stuff there. Really, there is.

She of course recognizes that there is ‘decent stuff’ in the traditional style.

But. . . there is some ‘dreck’ in both styles. Yes, really. I think there’s slightly more ‘dreck’ in the HH–she thinks there is slightly more ‘dreck’ in the traditional. . .you get the picture.

So if two people can have pretty much the same ‘faith background’, the same abilities, and yet have such ‘divergent’ musical preferences, yet both have the same ‘understanding’ of the faith, so to speak, isn’t it possible for us to recognize that some of our criticism. . .even if it is valid at least to us personally, and even if it were valid categorically. . .might be expressed a little more charitably and a little less **defensively ** by both sides?

IOW, can we please stop with the speculation, the innuendo, and the endless carping and sniping, the justifications, the defensiveness, and the everlasting blanket condemnations. . .recognize that both points of view have some valid and valuable insights, and show some R-E-S-P-E-C-T even if we don’t happen to agree with each other?

 

[Catholicdeacon]

Folks,

I think you are missing the point. The underlying theological current of this mass was the Holy Spirit, which brings unity to diversity. From the readings to the different languages used in the prayer of the faithful, to the first sentences of the Holy Father’s homily, it was all about the immense diversity we have in the American Catholic Church, and how the Holy Spirit brings all this together into our Church. I think that with this in mind the different styles of music worked in harmony with the rest of the liturgical celebration.

I’m not one for wacky “kumbaya” music in mass, but I think that the Holy Spirit really showed to us that He is the only one that can put something like that together and make it work!

In His love…

CatholicDeacon

 

[MusicMan]

Instead of concerning myself with the opinions of the experts on EWTN, CNN, and my fellow posters here on CAF, I will reserve my judgment on the matter until the Holy Father speaks on it. If he does. And since we all know that Pope Benedict is not one for pulling punches, if there was a problem, he will address it.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I don’t think the Holy Father was particularly surprised at the program as a whole (although I think everyone from the Vatican side had to be somewhat surprised as to just how horrendous the responsorial psalm was), but I do think we can be pretty sure that we’ve seen a case of choosing one’s battles. If you want to fix bad understandings of the liturgy, you have to start small and move slowly. That’s what he’s doing.

 

[DiZent]

Though I didn’t see them, I heard handbells. I play handbells at my parish - so I really appreciated hearing them at the DC Mass.

 

[Spiller]

I don’t think the Holy Father was particularly surprised at the program as a whole (although I think everyone from the Vatican side had to be somewhat surprised as to just how horrendous the responsorial psalm was), but I do think we can be pretty sure that we’ve seen a case of I]choosing one’s battles

. If you want to fix bad understandings of the liturgy, you have to start small and move slowly. That’s what he’s doing.
The Pope holds all the cards. No need for him to choose or even recognize “battles.”

 

[georgehparker]

I think some of the opinions expressed on this issue are a derivative example of what the pope has been calling “the dictatorship of relativism.” Look at what we are expected to accept: “One musical setting is as good as another; it’s all a matter of opinion, as long as the words can be taken to express a pious sentiment and makes you feel the way you want.” Do you say thank you for a gift that you never expected and don’t deserve, that humbles you, with fist-pumping excitement? Truly spiritual music avoids ostentation, even a studied approach disciplines the mind to receive the deeper resonances of the truth of our insignificance and the even greater mystery of God’s mercy and solicitude for us. This is the meaning and purpose of culture. Musical forms are not equivalent and replaceable, no matter what virtues they may have on their own and in their proper settings. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[benedictgal]

I think some of the opinions expressed on this issue are a derivative example of what the pope has been calling “the dictatorship of relativism.” Look at what we are expected to accept: “One musical setting is as good as another; it’s all a matter of opinion, as long as the words can be taken to express a pious sentiment and makes you feel the way you want.” Do you say thank you for a gift that you never expected and don’t deserve, that humbles you, with fist-pumping excitement? Truly spiritual music avoids ostentation, even a studied approach disciplines the mind to receive the deeper resonances of the truth of our insignificance and the even greater mystery of God’s mercy and solicitude for us. This is the meaning and purpose of culture. Musical forms are not equivalent and replaceable, no matter what virtues they may have on their own and in their proper settings. Why is this so hard to understand?

Of course, the Holy Father also said in Sacramentum Caritatis:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. ***Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). ***Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

Unfortunately, many composers, especially those who write for OCP, have failed to take this into account. Some have even made wholesale changes to the texts of the various Mass parts, forgetting, as japhy correctly noted, that you change the music to fit the text, not the other way around.

The result of ignoring what the Church has to say on the matter is what those who truly value the integrity of Sacred Music had to endure for the DC Mass. While there are certainly some allowances for inculturation, it is never to be at the expenrse of the integrity of the Mass.

Many people forget that the issue of Sacred Music, or, specifically, lackthereof, was one of the shadows noted by the Fathers of the Synod on the Eucharist in their working document.

If I’ve misspelled anything, I’m sorry. I wish I could make the print bigger. I’m now just barely getting better from Pink Eye, but, this subject was too important to not say anything.

 

[Spiller]

I think some of the opinions expressed on this issue are a derivative example of what the pope has been calling “the dictatorship of relativism.” Look at what we are expected to accept: “One musical setting is as good as another; it’s all a matter of opinion, as long as the words can be taken to express a pious sentiment and makes you feel the way you want.” Do you say thank you for a gift that you never expected and don’t deserve, that humbles you, with fist-pumping excitement? Truly spiritual music avoids ostentation, even a studied approach disciplines the mind to receive the deeper resonances of the truth of our insignificance and the even greater mystery of God’s mercy and solicitude for us. This is the meaning and purpose of culture. Musical forms are not equivalent and replaceable, no matter what virtues they may have on their own and in their proper settings. Why is this so hard to understand?

More and more spin. All I am saying is that the Pope and his staff approved the musical choices and the rest of each Mass. To suggest they approved the Mass in general principle and left the details to those in DC or NYC is simply naive.

While it may not have nourished some here as well as it might have, the DC Mass did nourish MILLIONS of others. I think the Pope and his staff are about 50 steps ahead of the “experts” on these forums – including myself.

 

[benedictgal]

More and more spin. All I am saying is that the Pope and his staff approved the musical choices and the rest of each Mass. To suggest they approved the Mass in general principle and left the details to those in DC or NYC is simply naive.

While it may not have nourished some here as well as it might have, the DC Mass did nourish MILLIONS of others

.

**I would beg to differ with on the issue of nourishment. A steady stream of Golden Corral buffets and McDonalds is not enough to provide nutitional nourishment to the human body. Certainly, the music at the DC Mass was not at all nourishing to the Body of Christ.

Spiller, one can certainly approve the format as it’s on paper. But, I seriously doubt that Rome was told just how these songs were going to be prerformed. For example, I have heard Bienaventurados (the Spanish form of the Beatititudes) with a piano accompanyment. It’s a subpar song, but, played with subdued accompanyment, it’s tolerable. What was performed for the DC Mass was more like Gloria Estefan meets Mana and not at all suited for the Holy Sacriifice of the Mass.

jAs I’ve told you many times, when you plan a Mass with your local Ordinary, as I have done, more often than not, he’ll look at what’s on paper and pretty much say, “okay.” Mine never asked the format in which the music would be played. He assumed that I knew what I was doing. This is very plausible where the DC Mass is concerned. What probably happened was that the Holy See got a list of the hymns and relied on the judgment of the local planning authority.

I think that Msgr. Marini has learned his lesson. It is better to throroughly check the matter instead of relying on the misguided judgments of the locals. **