No Worship Christ?

[Methodology]

Some of the quotes that the Fundamentalist Gentleman gave me were

“Heretics (those who are not members of the Catholic Church or who do not hold to Catholic doctrine) worship a God who is a liar, and a Christ who is a liar.” St. Augustine, (quoted in “Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca”, by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

“A manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others.” St. Robert Bellarmine, “On the Church Militant”.

Could I have some thought on this?

 

[Fidelis]

Could I have some thought on this?

The best way to start is to take each quote one at a time, since they were uttered by different people at different periods in history and, in their original context, probably addressing different issues:

“Heretics (those who are not members of the Catholic Church or who do not hold to Catholic doctrine) worship a God who is a liar, and a Christ who is a liar.” St. Augustine, (quoted in “Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca”, by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

Is the part in parentheses part of the original quote (I suspect not)? If not, that clearly indicates that your source is making a loaded statement out of an arguably innocent one. This is dishonest. :tsktsk:

By itself, the quote can be true, depending on what particular heresy is held by those Augustine was referrring to.

“A manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others.” St. Robert Bellarmine, (“On the Church Militant”.)

Same here, although the deliberate pairing of this verse to the (probably) unrelated one by Augustine makes it sound like the heretics in question are non-Catholics (i.e., Protestants). Again, this is dishonest manipulation of both the content and context of the original quotes, and the person who presented them to you should be called to task on it.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Meth__,

Without going into the hermeneutics of the thing, a Christian who rejects the Catholic Church does make out God to be a liar, because he promised in the Scriptures that he would be with her until the end of time.

Rejecting the Church therefore is saying that it went astray, that God left her,which is contrary to Scripture.

Verbum

 

[Della]

What was the context of your discussion with the Fundamentalist gentleman? Were you discussing heretics of the past/present who left the Church knowingly and willingly, or if present day, brought up outside of the Catholic Church Protestants are considered heretics? It makes a big difference.