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Oblaidon
Guest
Here is an argument from another site:
It seems they try to justify abortion for evil parents.
Noah and the Flood - What about the Babies? (Pro-Abortion Argument)
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Dtmccameron
Guest
Evil parents = evil babies.
Besides, God can kill who he pleases. He made 'em, he can smite them. We, on the other hand, a generaly told not to, so we don’t, or he’ll us.
Besides, God can kill who he pleases. He made 'em, he can smite them. We, on the other hand, a generaly told not to, so we don’t, or he’ll us.
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ANGELIC_PEACE
Guest
well we only know what the bible tells us…only god knows the full story…
maybe the flood was a punishment for all the sinful things people was doing…and the babies and “innocent” people who died in it, maybe god used them and their death as a sort of atonement/reparation for sins…
it doesn’t give anyone authority to kill either born and unborn life…there is a commandment saying do not kill…
so anyone using the story of noah as a cover story for abortion is just kidding themselves and probably doing real damage to their soul and the souls of all those who are involved in the situation
ANGELIC PEACE
maybe the flood was a punishment for all the sinful things people was doing…and the babies and “innocent” people who died in it, maybe god used them and their death as a sort of atonement/reparation for sins…
it doesn’t give anyone authority to kill either born and unborn life…there is a commandment saying do not kill…
so anyone using the story of noah as a cover story for abortion is just kidding themselves and probably doing real damage to their soul and the souls of all those who are involved in the situation
ANGELIC PEACE
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Oblaidon
Keep in mind that we’re given a very small part of the picture.
Babies were killed in the flood, just as babies were killed by Herod, in order to save Jesus and babies were killed in the holocaust
From our point of view, it looks like a heartless cruel God, who would allow such things and in the case of Noah’s flood, killed babies. But who are we to demand an answer from the Creator?
However, what if we were given more of the picture. The babies killed, were immediately brought to a paradise where they enjoy eternal happiness. Then, it would be the babies would look down on those who survived, and would have pity on them. For unlike the babies in paradise, people who survived had to suffer through live. They had to endure illness, wars, and then perhaps a gruesome death that the babies death doesn’t compare to.
Don’t let arguments with nonbelievers on this issue, get to you.
Always remember the mercy of God in Jesus Christ. Why would He humble himself in becoming a man, suffer and die, if he were not a loving merciful God?
Jim
Keep in mind that we’re given a very small part of the picture.
Babies were killed in the flood, just as babies were killed by Herod, in order to save Jesus and babies were killed in the holocaust
From our point of view, it looks like a heartless cruel God, who would allow such things and in the case of Noah’s flood, killed babies. But who are we to demand an answer from the Creator?
However, what if we were given more of the picture. The babies killed, were immediately brought to a paradise where they enjoy eternal happiness. Then, it would be the babies would look down on those who survived, and would have pity on them. For unlike the babies in paradise, people who survived had to suffer through live. They had to endure illness, wars, and then perhaps a gruesome death that the babies death doesn’t compare to.
Don’t let arguments with nonbelievers on this issue, get to you.
Always remember the mercy of God in Jesus Christ. Why would He humble himself in becoming a man, suffer and die, if he were not a loving merciful God?
Jim
I
inthecloud
Guest
And remember for most modern interpetations the Universal Flood was really local, the world known to the ancient Mesopotamians.
The dove came with a olive branch, so some parts of the earth were not flooded even in the Middle East.
The dove came with a olive branch, so some parts of the earth were not flooded even in the Middle East.
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buffalo
Guest
We should focus on the soul. Even if babies were killed what happened to their souls. In the end that is what counts anyway.
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NaturalEnquirer
Guest
I don’t get it. The dove was sent out after the waters had started receding, right? The olive branch just proves that the earth wasn’t flooded forever, which isn’t exactly surprising. Doesn’t the Bible say that the tops of the mountains were covered? Sounds pretty universal.
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Oblaidon
Guest
The “pro-choice” person might say, “then if you are so concerned about the fetus, won’t its soul go to heaven.”
Of course they only believe it is a blob of flesh.
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buffalo
Guest
The babies soul is trusted to the mercy of God.
The sin is on the murderers head not the babies. In addition to the murder the sin is denying the baby a chance to fully be what God intended.
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patg
Guest
That’s the beauty of a legend - you don’t have to tie up all those messy loose ends.
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Oblaidon
Guest
Then, Pat, you are saying it is a legend or a fable not to be taken literally. Well that could be. Any thoughts?
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uglygal
Guest
That is the most disgusting thing I have ever heard.
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water
Guest
Where are those babies now? knowing that might help us.
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Antithesis
Guest
I never understood this kind of thought process of “its bad for God to send a baby to hell”. I think it stinks of pride and arrogance. God owes us nothing we as a creation through Adam willingly turned our back on Him because of this a Baby is born with original sin. It is therefore dead to the eyes of God and warrants hell. Its that simple. We have to realize that we all deserve hell and if God sends us all there that is His right as the creator. Also I agree with God is love, but he is also pure truth and justice. You can not lovydovy these aspect of him away. Those children were born before the coming of Christ, so probably a few were saved but a majority most likely went to hell.
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Coreopisis
Guest
The story of Noah and the Ark is all about ancestrial sin as per the book “Healing the Family Tree” by - Father Hampsch where he says teh following:
*"One might visualize a polluted river flowing from Adam and Eve to us today. The fountainhead of the pollution was that original sin of disobedience - a diversion from God’s will. Much farther downstream from the source, there are other effluents of pollution within this great polluted river. The smaller currents of pollution are caused by personal sins that leave a somewhat limited range of pollution within family groups “to the third and the fourth generation” - to use the phrase so often found in scripture. …Sin causes both forms of pollution, the larger Adamic source and the smaller current from personal sources. The toxic effect of the Adamic sin includes death (Gen 2:17), susceptibility to illness, ignorance, and weakness of the will experienced dby all mankind (v.5).
—Thus personal sin reinforces and specifies the effects of original sin, and like original sin it has an “inherited” component, though more limited - namely to three or four generations.
Noah (Gen6:8) - with God protecting his little family tree: “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation” (Gen 7:1) …He was an instrument to counteract evil which affected not just Adamic descendants but also all of God’s diseased creation (Rom 8:22) including animals antonomasticallly salvaged in the ark riding above the flood of evil." *
Basically as you see from this quote God is telling us that sin is like a disease and it is inherited whether we like it or not.
“Our fathers sinned and they are no more” (Lam. 5:7)
“A spirit of prostitution is in their heart.” (Hosea 5:4)
“I will cut off the offspring and descendants of the wicked” (Is 14:20-22)
“God does not leave the the guilt unpunished, still he also punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and the forth generation” (Num 14:18 and Exod 20:5 and 34:7)
“God stores up punishment for a man’s sons” (Job 21:19)
It’s funny, the bible talks about punishing our children for our sins all over the place and yet most people fail to consider or even believe in ancestrial sin or inherited sin. I think we’ve been adequately warned. Essentially I think that part of the punishment of sin is that it will impact your children.
But God punishes us to the third and the fourth generation for sin but “where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more” (Rom 5:20)
Of course God also rewards us for the good that we do far more than he punishes us for the bad that we do. We all need to be careful though because what we do impacts those around us.
*"One might visualize a polluted river flowing from Adam and Eve to us today. The fountainhead of the pollution was that original sin of disobedience - a diversion from God’s will. Much farther downstream from the source, there are other effluents of pollution within this great polluted river. The smaller currents of pollution are caused by personal sins that leave a somewhat limited range of pollution within family groups “to the third and the fourth generation” - to use the phrase so often found in scripture. …Sin causes both forms of pollution, the larger Adamic source and the smaller current from personal sources. The toxic effect of the Adamic sin includes death (Gen 2:17), susceptibility to illness, ignorance, and weakness of the will experienced dby all mankind (v.5).
—Thus personal sin reinforces and specifies the effects of original sin, and like original sin it has an “inherited” component, though more limited - namely to three or four generations.
Noah (Gen6:8) - with God protecting his little family tree: “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation” (Gen 7:1) …He was an instrument to counteract evil which affected not just Adamic descendants but also all of God’s diseased creation (Rom 8:22) including animals antonomasticallly salvaged in the ark riding above the flood of evil." *
Basically as you see from this quote God is telling us that sin is like a disease and it is inherited whether we like it or not.
“Our fathers sinned and they are no more” (Lam. 5:7)
“A spirit of prostitution is in their heart.” (Hosea 5:4)
“I will cut off the offspring and descendants of the wicked” (Is 14:20-22)
“God does not leave the the guilt unpunished, still he also punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and the forth generation” (Num 14:18 and Exod 20:5 and 34:7)
“God stores up punishment for a man’s sons” (Job 21:19)
It’s funny, the bible talks about punishing our children for our sins all over the place and yet most people fail to consider or even believe in ancestrial sin or inherited sin. I think we’ve been adequately warned. Essentially I think that part of the punishment of sin is that it will impact your children.
But God punishes us to the third and the fourth generation for sin but “where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more” (Rom 5:20)
Of course God also rewards us for the good that we do far more than he punishes us for the bad that we do. We all need to be careful though because what we do impacts those around us.
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uglygal
Guest
Once again, this is disgusting
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bpbasilphx
Guest
I don’t think that it goes against faith to point out the following facts:
- Moses, according to the Bible itself, was the most cultured of the Hebrews of his time.
- These people were at this point just barely literate, if not pre-literate.
- They were just barely out of the stone age.
- Those who participated in the Exodus were a mixed multitude just two steps removed from a band of nomadic desert marauders.
- When they settled in the Promised Land, they were not that distant culturally, ethnically, or socially from the prevailing fertility cult. No wonder they kept falling into it!
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Antithesis
Guest
Why? Do you believe in original sin? Or do you believe that we are born perfect.
We must be honest and love like god does through truth and justice. If we do this a child is not pure, far from it, it stinks of the sin of adam from conception on. Baby’s and young children can be representatives of the worst of sins. Are children jealous when a brother/sister gets a toy and they dont? Do they show pride for work they did not do? Do they overeat unless you control them? Do they get angry and defiant when there will is not done? Are they not naturally lazy, soyou must instruct them to work? Sloth greed, wrath, gluttony, Envy, and Pride all can be seen in a child. These are sins that we must answer for. You can argue if you want if they are mortal or not. But it does not matter because only the perfect can go to heaven. Unless you reach an age that you can apologize to your parents for the horrible selfish act of your childhood. Your sin is unrepented and Hell is yours.
For only the perfect can be with God this is plain and clear in the teaching of christ.
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uglygal
Guest
=Antithesis;3047339]Why? Do you believe in original sin? Or do you believe that we are born perfect.
No, we must be honest and love like God does, through compassion and mercy. God’s mercy always triumphs over justice. Justice is for him alone, and justice is only justice when it is applied to those who have committed wrong and knew they were doing wrong.
This is what i find disgusting - that a baby from the very moment of conception according to your warped logic “stinks” of sin
But you sin only when you sin deliberately and know that you are sinning on purpose - how can a child at conception “stink” of sin when it has done nothing and does not even possess the capacity to choose good or evil or commit sin? or even an infant who doesn’t know they are doing anything wrong?
yes, sins that you are guilty of and have committed - a child at conception or very very young does not have the knowledge and capacity to know and commit sin.
Do you even know what your saying? Hell is forever - not for a million years, not a billion years but forever. And according to your sick logic a child (miscarried, stillborn or very very young infant) is going to be thrown into a place like that forever and ever and all eternity. For what? For being born? For existing? Babies have not even had the chance to sin and know that sin exists.
Well guess what, people go to heaven nevertheless because of God’s merciful love, and I dare say babies are far more innocent than the saints who went to heaven because the saints at some point committed sin intentionally - whereas babies can not commit sin intentionally.
I don’t mean any offense to you or to insult you, but what you are saying about god and how he deals with the most helpless of all people is sick and disgusting - you have the gall to say abortionists are evil but a god who damns babies to eternal hell to be tormented is not evil? I have to protest this … this god is a monster! what am i to think as a mother who has a miscarriage? Oh my child “stinks” in the eyes of god and is damned to hell forever. You are a lier. On the one hand you will be the first to claim that God came to earth as a person and endured a crucifixion to save all people and then say a little baby is thrown to hell by this same loving god? So which is it? Either god preferred to suffer and die so no-one would be damned, or he damns everyone front, back and centre?
Once again I don’t mean to cause or offense, I really don’t, but this conception of god outrages meThis is a monster, a vengeful monster that I must protest against. This is not love and god always deals with us in love - especially a tiny little baby, regardless of who the parents are.
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buffalo
Guest
=Antithesis;3047339]Why? Do you believe in original sin? Or do you believe that we are born perfect.
must be honest and love like God does, through compassion and mercy. God’s mercy always triumphs over justice. Justice is for him alone, and justice is only justice when it is applied to those who have committed wrong and knew they were doing wrong.
This is what i find disgusting - that a baby from the very moment of conception according to your warped logic “stinks” of sin
But you sin only when you sin deliberately and know that you are sinning on purpose - how can a child at conception “stink” of sin when it has done nothing and does not even possess the capacity to choose good or evil or commit sin? or even an infant who doesn’t know they are doing anything wrong?
yes, sins that you are guilty of and have committed - a child at conception or very very young does not have the knowledge and capacity to know and commit sin.
Do you even know what your saying? Hell is forever - not for a million years, not a billion years but forever. And according to your sick logic a child (miscarried, stillborn or very very young infant) is going to be thrown into a place like that forever and ever and all eternity. For what? For being born? For existing? Babies have not even had the chance to sin and know that sin exists.
Well guess what, people go to heaven nevertheless because of God’s merciful love, and I dare say babies are far more innocent than the saints who went to heaven because the saints at some point committed sin intentionally - whereas babies can not commit sin intentionally.
I don’t mean any offense to you or to insult you, but what you are saying about god and how he deals with the most helpless of all people is sick and disgusting - you have the gall to say abortionists are evil but a god who damns babies to eternal hell to be tormented is not evil? I have to protest this … this god is a monster! what am i to think as a mother who has a miscarriage? Oh my child “stinks” in the eyes of god and is damned to hell forever. You are a lier. On the one hand you will be the first to claim that God came to earth as a person and endured a crucifixion to save all people and then say a little baby is thrown to hell by this same loving god? So which is it? Either god preferred to suffer and die so no-one would be damned, or he damns everyone front, back and centre?
Once again I don’t mean to cause or offense, I really don’t, but this conception of god outrages me
Try a different approach - Fatherly love. Many times a father because of love has to punish his children.
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