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KevinK
Guest
This is an odd statement in a post about all of humanity the victim of a catastrophic flood. You must not mean this literally.
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pianistclare
Guest
Abandonment means spiritually. This world is not our final destination.
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pianistclare
Guest
The “catastrophe” is separation from God’s love.
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ChunkMonk
Guest
Yeah! It’s all Babylonian war-god myths! Sure thing buddy!
(Talk about changing the goalposts)
(Talk about changing the goalposts)
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pocaracas
Guest
OH wait… Sorry, I forgot… You wanted only the Chinese reference…
Tough, if you read it properly, I used the Chinese as an example. Noah and yahweh aren’t mentioned by the Chinese, just like they’re not mentioned by any other flood myth.
It’s all myth.
It’s a written down myth, so it became crystallized in time. We now have access to the myth as it was ~2500 years ago. And it never changed… never got a chance to adapt to the evolving technology and knowledge available.
That people in 2018 still believe that this tale really happened is something of a mystery to me… I guess indoctrination is a really powerful biasing force in a person’s mind…
Tough, if you read it properly, I used the Chinese as an example. Noah and yahweh aren’t mentioned by the Chinese, just like they’re not mentioned by any other flood myth.
It’s all myth.
It’s a written down myth, so it became crystallized in time. We now have access to the myth as it was ~2500 years ago. And it never changed… never got a chance to adapt to the evolving technology and knowledge available.
That people in 2018 still believe that this tale really happened is something of a mystery to me… I guess indoctrination is a really powerful biasing force in a person’s mind…
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ChunkMonk
Guest
I actually just watched a documentary last week about Erlitou and the Xia Dynasty, so I really don’t care about learning more about Yu the Great right now.
Actually, Noah is mentioned in other Flood myths, or a figure close enough to Noah to be considered a counterpart, but that’s really beside the point. I never asked if post-Flood Chinese knew about God… I asked if there was evidence pre-Flood Chinese (if they existed) knew about God. The proper response for you would be: there was no Flood. Not trying to say that because one of their Flood myths doesn’t include God means the people who were (theoretically) drowned didn’t know God.
Of course, since you reject the very notion of a Flood, and in fact seem to reject the very notion of God (Babylonian war god myths) then I don’t see why you didn’t just come right out and say:
‘Hey everyone look at me! I’m intelligent and not indocrinated at all because I’m an atheist.’
Actually, Noah is mentioned in other Flood myths, or a figure close enough to Noah to be considered a counterpart, but that’s really beside the point. I never asked if post-Flood Chinese knew about God… I asked if there was evidence pre-Flood Chinese (if they existed) knew about God. The proper response for you would be: there was no Flood. Not trying to say that because one of their Flood myths doesn’t include God means the people who were (theoretically) drowned didn’t know God.
Of course, since you reject the very notion of a Flood, and in fact seem to reject the very notion of God (Babylonian war god myths) then I don’t see why you didn’t just come right out and say:
‘Hey everyone look at me! I’m intelligent and not indocrinated at all because I’m an atheist.’
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KevinK
Guest
Are you asserting the possibility the Chinese only came along after the Flood?? What kind of time line are you working with?
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pocaracas
Guest
Nah… I think he’s working under the assumption that all “pre-flood” Chinese were drowned and all records of them disappeared with that flood. We are thus completely unable to ascertain wether they knew anything about Yahweh.
And, because of that, they “probably” knew about Yahweh, for they too were children of Adam&Eve, I guess…
And, because of that, they “probably” knew about Yahweh, for they too were children of Adam&Eve, I guess…
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ChunkMonk
Guest
By definition, if one accepts the Flood as a historical reality, then the modern Chinese must have come after the Flood as the Flood narrative includes the drowning of all people except Noah, his wife, his progeny and their wives. Unless we think Noah was himself Chinese then the pre-Flood Chinese must have been destroyed.
Now, if we take the Flood as mythological, then of course we would believe that the Chinese preceeded the Flood because there was no Flood.
This is actually pretty basic logic. If one doesn’t believe in the Flood, that’s fine but then one should probably argue from that point. Trying to argue within the context of the Flood being a reality and then back-tracking to ‘It was a myth anyway’ is rather curious.
Now, if we take the Flood as mythological, then of course we would believe that the Chinese preceeded the Flood because there was no Flood.
This is actually pretty basic logic. If one doesn’t believe in the Flood, that’s fine but then one should probably argue from that point. Trying to argue within the context of the Flood being a reality and then back-tracking to ‘It was a myth anyway’ is rather curious.
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pocaracas
Guest
Is it beyond your ability to consider that one can argue both cases simultaneously?
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KevinK
Guest
How long ago do you believe the Flood occurred?
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ahs
Guest
Maybe. I don’t know if it was localized or not. I wasn’t around back then, so…By using the term “area that was destroyed” you are asserting a localized flood? If that is the case why not just have Noah and family migrate away from the localized flood and why the need to gather worldwide animals unaffected by a local flood?
At any rate, to answer your original post:
In addition to the above, @KevinK, it could also be that God likes to use/work with people and nature to in carrying out His tasks. It would be fitting to believe that disaster was eminent, and God simply gave a warning to Noah, having decided not to step in to stop the disaster due to the evil of the people-at-large. Perhaps then, one might wonder why God didn’t just build the ark for Noah. And then it would be fitting to believe that Noah needed the exercise in patience and long-suffering and learning to trust God no matter how ridiculous a task may have seemed.
Is there any reason we should have expected God to do the work for Noah? Is there a reason that God should not have chosen a complex approach, or a reason He should not have let nature takes its course (yet still give Noah a head’s-up)? Just because you and I don’t see the point of a step-by-step approach, doesn’t mean there isn’t a point. Afterall, no one pretends to understand all there is to understand about an infinite God.
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ChunkMonk
Guest
Yes it is beyond my comprehension because they are mutually exclusive. One can either argue within the context of the Flood story, or one can reject it totally.
One cannot say: we are wrong about what the Flood story really was because the Flood story didn’t happen. For example: you can say that Frodo didn’t really go to Mordor because those books are fantasy, or you can say that Frodo did go to Mordor because that’s what the book says. You can’t say: Frodo went to Narnia because the book is fantasy.
One cannot say: we are wrong about what the Flood story really was because the Flood story didn’t happen. For example: you can say that Frodo didn’t really go to Mordor because those books are fantasy, or you can say that Frodo did go to Mordor because that’s what the book says. You can’t say: Frodo went to Narnia because the book is fantasy.
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De_Maria
Guest
I don’t think time matters to God.There seems no point in such a step-by-step manual approach.
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ChunkMonk
Guest
I have no clue. I am entirely lacking the historical and archeological training to even attempt to give a proper estimation. I think the popular number among Young Earth Creationists is ~5000 years ago. That seems plausible, though again, I have no possible way of knowing.
I do accept the historicity of it mainly on theological grounds. I see it as necessary for the ‘story’ of the Bible to make sense.
I do accept the historicity of it mainly on theological grounds. I see it as necessary for the ‘story’ of the Bible to make sense.
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Kei
Guest
Time doesn’t matter to a timeless entity. God is patient, longsuffering yet sure to justice.
I think what’s really interesting is that the Chinese texts have bits of the flood story. I know some Japanese so I find it really cool.
Like, for instance, 船 means boat and in it you see certain radicals, like eight 八 and mouth 口.
I think what’s really interesting is that the Chinese texts have bits of the flood story. I know some Japanese so I find it really cool.
Like, for instance, 船 means boat and in it you see certain radicals, like eight 八 and mouth 口.
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KevinK
Guest
Good grief, what a stretch.
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Kei
Guest
What is the stretch? That how long something takes doesn’t matter to someone who is timeless? Or how the construction of the various hanzi/ kanji are interesting?
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KevinK
Guest
The Chinese symbols.
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TheButler
Guest
Or 水, water, which is H2OLike, for instance, 船 means boat and in it you see certain radicals, like eight 八 and mouth 口.
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