Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

[para8888]

You are wise indeed to ask all of these questions;
however, to simply reject any/all of it , in my opinion, is simply surrendering to your/our biased way of accepting as truth only that which agrees with our interpretation of what we are capable of observing. Imagine, for a moment, that the gift of sight would not exist. What type of universe would we be able to accept as scientifically true? What if, through genetical error, one person is born with the gift of sight, and explains the existance of the vast (almost infinite) universe with all it’s stars, the moon and sun to the rest of humanity. How could one scientifically accept such a world without receiving first the gift of sight? We do have many, throughout the age of humanity, who have claimed to witness a different world as existing. Why so many? True, our brain can indeed play tricks on us at times…but is it really a
valid reason to discredit all of those who claimed to having witnessed such a world?

As for Genesis, Adam and Eve first lived in Paradise. Jesus said to the thief beside Him:“Today, you will be with me in Paradise”. Clearly He is speaking of a “spiritual” or metaphysical dimention. After they are sent away from Paradise, an angel is place to prevent them from re-entering. This spiritual dimention is the setting till after the flood, which is why I suspect the flood destroyed a “spiritual world”. So, what if such a world has a much different time frame of reference where as to give 1000 years to a living person is not impossible? If, according to Einstein, this reality can exist with a travelling twin, why not within another metaphysical spacetime dimention?

However, to speak of a spiritual world does not mean that there would be no connection to the physical world we experience. Therefore, the Great flood, which might have destroyed a spiritual world, also could have destroyed a “local earthly place”… I personally would point to Egypt.

Andre

To take for fact that any book on the planet is without flaw, biases, prejudices, etc…etc…etc… is beyond reason.
To think for one minute that the people who authored the bible didn’t make up stories, exaggerate, add in their own prejudices, or just plainly get things wrong is fooling yourself.

You’ve probably done this before in school sometime…
Take 20 people and put them in a circle. Have the first person tell a story (a decent length story -2 to 3 minutes) to the next person,…and so on until you reach the 20th person. Then let me know if that 2 to 3 minute story comes full circle intact.
Fair enough?..Now tell me how an entire book could be without flaw.

But all reason seems to be thrown out the window when we talk about “holy” books. There is this underlying fear/taboo that you can’t question the very basis of their authorship. To do so would be unthinkable.

…“Of course God wrote it!” is the only reply.

Not, you know what, maybe “men” wrote it. Maybe there are flaws, Maybe there are exaggerations and made-up stories and
tall tales told by “men”

Maybe.

 

[mich2]

To take for fact that any book on the planet is without flaw, biases, prejudices, etc…etc…etc… is beyond reason.
To think for one minute that the people who authored the bible didn’t make up stories, exaggerate, add in their own prejudices, or just plainly get things wrong is fooling yourself.

You’ve probably done this before in school sometime…
Take 20 people and put them in a circle. Have the first person tell a story (a decent length story -2 to 3 minutes) to the next person,…and so on until you reach the 20th person. Then let me know if that 2 to 3 minute story comes full circle intact.
Fair enough?..Now tell me how an entire book could be without flaw.

But all reason seems to be thrown out the window when we talk about “holy” books. There is this underlying fear/taboo that you can’t question the very basis of their authorship. To do so would be unthinkable.

…“Of course God wrote it!” is the only reply.

Not, you know what, maybe “men” wrote it. Maybe there are flaws, Maybe there are exaggerations and made-up stories and
tall tales told by “men”

Maybe.

Again, you have indeed a reasonable approach.
However, “if” such stories can be conceived as true, then, the “word game” is irrelevant since for each person, the same informer gives the word to each and everyone.So, just play the game using one person speaking the word to each individual, and your probability is overwelming on the side of that the highest percentage having the correct word.

Certainly, books can be misinterpreted and mistranslated, which is why the jewish books were not often translated. While the legend behind
the septuagint might be only a legend, as for most legends, there will be a kernel of truth. I’m certain the septuagint had been revised many times in order to ascertain a good translation.

Take a look at the religions of the world. They all have the story of the world flood. Such a story therefore has a common origin going
as far as the history of religion goes. Why did such a story make such an impact on humanity, if no truth can be found within? Does this not imply that people did not simply invent different
religious stories relevant to their cultures, but passed on stories from long away, believing them to be true? Why would such stories be commonly accepted? What are the odds of most, if not all religions not discarding such a story?

Andre

 

[buffalo]

Does it really make sense to you that “God” would get this supposed 600 YEAR OLD man to build a boat and collect animals so that he could drown everyone on earth.

…where do I start. Where in your brain is plausible that men lived to be 800 and 900 years old?..Come on…The Greeks had their myths too, but I don’t see anyone trying to rationalize those.

Adam and Eve were created with “perfect” genes. It makes sense that better genes can live longer.

 

[Orogeny]

Sorry to hear.

Peace

Greg

Why would you be sorry about that?

Peace

Tim

 

[Christ4Life]

I would love it if people didn’t always try to understand everything. We are not capable of understanding everything, you are attempting an impossible task. For God’s sake, we barely use more than 15 percent of brain capacity! I wish that sometimes, we would just believe and have faith. Then that faith would guide us. Only then can we understand, not through reason, but through faith.

There is scientific and historical evidence to prove the existence of a flood during the time of Noah. I will do the impossible to find it.

 

[mich2]

---

I would love it if people didn’t always try to understand everything. We are not capable of understanding everything, you are attempting an impossible task. For God’s sake, we barely use more than 15 percent of brain capacity! I wish that sometimes, we would just believe and have faith. Then that faith would guide us. Only then can we understand, not through reason, but through faith.

There is scientific and historical evidence to prove the existence of a flood during the time of Noah. I will do the impossible to find it.

I highly respect your position…and you might be right. However, unless a worldwide flood can be
scientifically proven, I opt to believe in the destruction of a spiritual world, which, I believe, would have been a great, but still local flood as well.
The reason I say this is due to the setting of Genesis being first Paradise, then it changes “East of the Garden”.

Gen

**23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. **

My question would be, if we cannot physically locate Paradise today, how could we physically locate East of Paradise? I do personally believe that Paradise might be located somewhere on earth, however, we do not seem to have the nature
(spiritual eyes) to captivate it.

Andre

 

[Christ4Life]

The Garden of Eden was a physical place one earth. It was somewhere near modern day Iraq. Genesis 2 states,
“8 The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is Hiddekel;[d] it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.”

Thus, the Garden was a physical place.

 

[mich2]

The Garden of Eden was a physical place one earth. It was somewhere near modern day Iraq. Genesis 2 states,
“8 The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is Hiddekel;[d] it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.”

Thus, the Garden was a physical place.

When Jesus said to the thief, " Today you will be with me in Paradise", did He bring the thief to Iraq?

Andre

 

[Christ4Life]

Paradise in that sense is the spiritual place where human spirits go to wait until Judgement Day. He did not mean the Garden of Eden.

 

[mich2]

Paradise in that sense is the spiritual place where human spirits go to wait until Judgement Day. He did not mean the Garden of Eden.

Again, I respect that you do not accept Paradise
as being the Garden of Eden. As for myself, I do believe that the two are the same.

For example Paul wrote to the Corinthians:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise and heard things too sacred to be put into words, things that a person is not permitted to speak

Paul identified Paradise as being situated in the third Heaven, which is in agreement with what is written in the book of Enoch.

1And those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and
placed me there; and I looked downwards, and
saw the produce of these places, such as has never been known for
goodness.

3And in the midst of the trees that of life, in that place whereon the
Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise; and this tree is of
ineffable goodness and fragrance, and adorned more than every existing
thing;

5And paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility.
6And two springs come out which send forth honey and milk, and their
springs send forth oil and wine, and they separate into
four parts, and go round with quiet course, and go down into the
PARADISE OF EDEN, between corruptibility and
incorruptibility

Andre

 

[edwest2]

Sad that “who-knows-ism” “and-you-could-be-wrong-ism” is prevalent on these boards. I was reading posts at an atheist site telling other atheists they have to be more sneaky about convincing Christians that the Bible could all be made up.

The advice to Timothy is relevant: “Be sober, be vigilant because your adversary, the devil, goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour.”

God bless,
Ed

 

[Christ4Life]

I do not believe in the Book of Enoch. It is not one of the Deutrocanonical books… However, I do respect your opinion.

 

[Eilrahc]

I love that website… even though it’s made by non-Catholics.

s8int.com/

A very good source for researching things like this. I found it very helpful. Also I would caution people in discounting things just because they are ‘Fundamentalist’ or ‘Protestant’…we can learn from everything, and anyone…as an example - which I am sure some will take out of context - but just the same…Job learned from his experiences - yet…they came not from God [Who allowed

it to happen…some would even go so far as to suggest encouraged it by pointing Job out to Satan ] but God used it all the same to educate Job on who’s who around here In the same vein - we can learn truths from fundamentalist teachings too … that’s not to say the WHOLE Truth…but a start, that will lead us into ALL Truth by the Holy Spirit. The truth Is Out There…

and Yes - the Flood IS evident in the Geological record…for those who have eyes to see. Ex. - most all of the fossils found have all died at the same time…and most all are found in sedimentary rock. Sedimentary rock reguires water - and a lot of it…how else would this be possible???

 

[edwest2]

Flood stories also occur in Native American legends, Pacific Island legends, and East Asian legends, which could mean that there was a worldwide flood, or that there have been many floods at different times in different places and so people have written stories about them.

Had there been a worldwide flood, it should be very evident in the geological record, which it is not except to diehard fundamentalists.

“diehard fundamentalists”? What’s that? It’s interesting to read here about the amazing findings of science. Let’s take “junk DNA.” True? No, it’s not, but a bunch of scientists who decided they knew it must be true made this announcement. They were wrong.

It’s as if science goes on into the future but regarding Noah and the Ark - no, impossible because ‘science’ said so. I find science hard to trust when it fronts for an ideology.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Its obviously just a story ,people have to stop interpreting things so literally.

On what basis do you make that statement?

God bless,
Ed

---

Choose Jesus.

 

[edwest2]

Now I didn’t read all the posts (don’t have time today - I may go back), BUT with that said, I saw a thing on Nova on PBS about Noah’s Ark. They had some guy who worked for the Pentagon going over some of the ‘biblical’ evidence. It was a pro-Noah’s Ark thing. He said that the flood explained something like 17 natural occurences - a couple that I remember where the fossil record, the oil deposits, continental drift and subsequently mountains.

Unfortunately the show was a bit dramatized and sensationalized, but it was VERY interesting.

They built a scaled model of the ark and said that it could handle 200 foot waves and turn almost up to 90 degrees on its side and still upright itself.

As a catholic, I’m allowed to believe that it’s a literal story or a fictional story. I haven’t decided. I think I lean 50.000001% on the literal side.

The CIA has an image they’ve labeled “Ararat Anomaly.” I was told that the Noah and the Ark story was true – literal – and I have no reason to disbelieve it. Others have built ark models that were very stable and functional.

In recent years, a well funded “Bible Explanation Industry” has sprung up. In Israel, a man claimed he had found a stone box called an osuary, with the bones of Jesus. A close up of the writing showed that it was likely fake. He, or someone, had added the name of Jesus.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

I wouldn’t go too far with this line of thinking, though. Jesus referred to Noah as if he actually existed and did what the Scriptures said he did. I know it can be argued by those who want to see all the Bible as merely allegorical that Jesus was only making a point, but he didn’t address the story as if it were just a story. He told it in a very straightforward manner that in no way suggested Noah and the ark was pious fiction. This has a bearing because Jesus likened his death and resurrection to Noah and the flood.

Later, Paul goes on to cite Adam as if he had been a real person who truly effected the bringing of original sin into the world–not as a mere story told to teach us some lesson. This desire to explain things away is dangerous to the very foundations of our faith, which many are all to happy to eliminate so they can do as they please, call it justified, and pretend they still believe. Not you, dear friend, but far too many want to negate the stories of the Bible, which in turn makes many doubt the veracity of Jesus’ life and message as you so clearly stated.

Jesus referred to Noah and the days of Noah. And if you look in the Bible, you’ll see that by one man, sin and death entered the world.

So, giving miraculous events a “scientific” explanation negates the way in which God can act. Jesus rose from the dead.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Windfish]

Discussions like these illustrate how I sometimes struggle with the Bible. Is this or that allegorical, historical, or both? If we say an event or story in the Bible is allegorical, we can preserve our knowledge of natural history and the sciences, but we may be obfuscating the integrity of the Bible when figures like Jesus Christ refer to them as historical. Conversely, if we say an event or story in the Bible is historical, we can preserve the integrity of the Bible, but we may be betraying our knowledge of natural history and the sciences. I’m not comfortable with shorting either.

For the time being, I’ll pray over this struggle and ask for guidance from God and from those more intelligent than me. This is one of the reasons I joined CAF, so I hope we can discuss this more.

 

[buffalo]

Discussions like these illustrate how I sometimes struggle with the Bible. Is this or that allegorical, historical, or both? If we say an event or story in the Bible is allegorical, we can preserve our knowledge of natural history and the sciences, but we may be obfuscating the integrity of the Bible when figures like Jesus Christ refer to them as historical. Conversely, if we say an event or story in the Bible is historical, we can preserve the integrity of the Bible, but we may be betraying our knowledge of natural history and the sciences. I’m not comfortable with shorting either.

For the time being, I’ll pray over this struggle and ask for guidance from God and from those more intelligent than me. This is one of the reasons I joined CAF, so I hope we can discuss this more.

Faith and reason cannot be opposed. I explore the intersection of faith and reason. Revelation is true and our observations then have to be reasoned by human (limited) minds.

I look for the constant teaching and understanding of the Church.

Here is something you may find very interesting: Ancient Chinese Characters

 

[twinc]

“diehard fundamentalists”? What’s that? It’s interesting to read here about the amazing findings of science. Let’s take “junk DNA.” True? No, it’s not, but a bunch of scientists who decided they knew it must be true made this announcement. They were wrong.

It’s as if science goes on into the future but regarding Noah and the Ark - no, impossible because ‘science’ said so. I find science hard to trust when it fronts for an ideology.

God bless,
Ed

that there was a world wide flood is evident and clearly seen,except by those refuse to see with eyes to see that see not viz “millionos of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers covered by water all over the earth” - twinc