Non believing parish member

[carefullytread]

I was recently talking to a friend of mine who’s active in a Protest church. I had always thought he was religious, but he told me that actually he’s completely an atheist.

To him religious language is a way to talk way about love and awe at the mysteries of life. He rejects all the “supernatural” aspects, but thinks that there is no other place besides a religious community where one can talk about love. The community and outreach programs that his church does are so unlike the secular ones, because they are able to use language like that and express relationships with the people they help in a way that’s not possible, at least as of today, in secular society.

He also said that he thought there were many others like him, but that you could never talk about it. You can tell who doesn’t believe that those who politely smile and move the conversation along to something else whenever Jesus comes up. He doesn’t feel he’s doing anything wrong so long as he doesn’t openly deny the religious parts, but if he did, he would be asked to leave.

Do you think this is common in the Catholic Church? Would your parish silently tolerate people like this? What if they were openly nonbelievers who were nonetheless respectful and helpful?

(I’m not sure that this is the right forum. It seemed like a Catholic living question, but there’s no parish life sub forum)

 

[Della]

As long as he isn’t causing scandal he’s fine, actually. Only God can judge each of our intentions–we often don’t know them as well as we think we do, after all.

And there are Catholics who, to my knowledge, don’t support all the Church teaches–I don’t know about any who are atheists but are still “active” in some way, but I suppose we have them too. Human needs and desires are complex and if you add personal experience and maturity, etc. into the mix, well you’re bound to get people in every stage of belief from unbelief to not sure to willing to admit some truths to those who embrace the lot.

Jesus said that God doesn’t break the bent reed nor quench the smoldering fire. Your friend is serving according to his understanding and better than many other who profess all their church holds true. You can benefit him by helping him understand the supernatural “bits” by encouraging him to talk about why he doesn’t believe and then directing him to resources that could help him, and pray for him, of course. But I wouldn’t discourage him from doing the good he is doing.

It’s better to let him continue on since he’s doing no harm and may come to benefit from seeing the witness of those who do believe in the supernatural parts of the faith. You may want to ask him why people who believe in the "unbelievable "are more willing to engage people as they are than those in the secular world who don’t believe. That may get him thinking. I wish you every blessing in dealing with your friend. You both have my prayers.

 

[Irishmom2]

Would your parish silently tolerate people like this? What if they were openly nonbelievers who were nonetheless respectful and helpful?

I can’t speak for my parish, I can only speak for myself. But I can’t think of what the alternative would be. I doubt anyone is going to ever ask anyone to leave unless they are causing a commotion. I believe that if someone were an openly non-believer that was respectful and helpful that someone would take it upon themselves to befriend them with the hopes of helping them “see the light.” And even if they couldn’t do that, they probably still would let them “stay.”

 

[ChurchSoldier]

I was recently talking to a friend of mine who’s active in a Protest church. I had always thought he was religious, but he told me that actually he’s completely an atheist.

To him religious language is a way to talk way about love and awe at the mysteries of life. He rejects all the “supernatural” aspects, but thinks that there is no other place besides a religious community where one can talk about love. The community and outreach programs that his church does are so unlike the secular ones, because they are able to use language like that and express relationships with the people they help in a way that’s not possible, at least as of today, in secular society.

He also said that he thought there were many others like him, but that you could never talk about it. You can tell who doesn’t believe that those who politely smile and move the conversation along to something else whenever Jesus comes up. He doesn’t feel he’s doing anything wrong so long as he doesn’t openly deny the religious parts, but if he did, he would be asked to leave.

**Do you think this is common in the Catholic Church? Would your parish silently tolerate people like this? What if they were openly nonbelievers who were nonetheless respectful and helpful?
**
(I’m not sure that this is the right forum. It seemed like a Catholic living question, but there’s no parish life sub forum)

Yes, there are many many Catholics who attend for reasons other than belief in Jesus.

 

[pianistclare]

Do you think this is common in the Catholic Church? Would your parish silently tolerate people like this? What if they were openly nonbelievers who were nonetheless respectful and helpful?

I don’t know if it’s “common”, but I do know that there are MANY non-Catholics, and Catholics who are not necessarily what CAF people would call “practicing” in our pews every weekend.
I thank God they are there, and don’t question.
Imagine of the parishes had signs that said “check you soul before you enter”.
It’d be a very empty place.
The Holy Sprit has various ways and means, various methods of reaching people. We leave it to God to sort out.
People may be in pain due to a suffering family member…what better place for them to be, but at the table of the Lamb asking their questions of Our Blessed Lord?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I was recently talking to a friend of mine who’s active in a Protest church. I had always thought he was religious, but he told me that actually he’s completely an atheist.

To him religious language is a way to talk way about love and awe at the mysteries of life. He rejects all the “supernatural” aspects, but thinks that there is no other place besides a religious community where one can talk about love. The community and outreach programs that his church does are so unlike the secular ones, because they are able to use language like that and express relationships with the people they help in a way that’s not possible, at least as of today, in secular society.

He also said that he thought there were many others like him, but that you could never talk about it. You can tell who doesn’t believe that those who politely smile and move the conversation along to something else whenever Jesus comes up. He doesn’t feel he’s doing anything wrong so long as he doesn’t openly deny the religious parts, but if he did, he would be asked to leave.

Do you think this is common in the Catholic Church? Would your parish silently tolerate people like this? What if they were openly nonbelievers who were nonetheless respectful and helpful?

(I’m not sure that this is the right forum. It seemed like a Catholic living question, but there’s no parish life sub forum)

Oh my. I arrive at the end of life, after these many years in the priesthood, having seen the whole broad possible spectrum in my various flocks of sheep. Dear me.

No I would never have asked someone to leave my parish! I am doing what I can to get them in…not drive them out.

One is a shepherd to a person wherever they are in their journey with the Lord/their journey of life. A priest does not have – and SHOULD NOT have – the luxury of determining who he ministers to or the spiritual state in which those people find themselves or where they are. Wherever they are is where you start. The sick sheep are the ones that need you the most. The 99 can graze on their own, all else being equal.

When Pope Francis…whom I think is the most wonderful of gifts to the Church…said the parish church is a field hospital, I shouted: “ALLELUIA! THIS ONE GETS IT!” You don’t know what is coming through your confessional/office/parish door at any given moment with the request: “FIX, please.”

As a parish priest, my parish door was always open…so was the office door. There did not even have to be good will. Some people had rage or anger or woundedness from life that they needed to work through. And guess where the rage, anger, woundedness gets vented toward God, since the person can’t fly up to His beautiful throne in Heaven? So there you are: You have a sick sheep with a temper tantrum. It was an ecclesiastical version of a casualty ward.

You have parishioners who are saints, you have parishioners muddling along as best they can, you have those who are limping along, and then there are those in total collapse and/or on their last legs. You have those of tremendous faith, those of little faith, those who have lost faith…and everything else in between.

None of these people were a category. None of them were their spiritual condition or malady. They were a human being that God sent to you, without benefit of a personalised repair manual pinned to them.

Priests see it all. You do as much as you can to help as many as you can and you pray that, by the end of it all, you’ve managed to help each soul to be closer to God than when God sent them to you. Of course, you know it is not so and there will be those that appear no better or are even worse off and you’re still praying for them decades after you last saw or had contact with them, hoping… For the most part, you won’t know…until you’re dead…what the eventual outcome was for the vast lot.

One trusts the Holy Spirit that, at the very least, He won’t allow you to make a total ruin of it.

 

[carefullytread]

Oh my. I arrive at the end of life, after these many years in the priesthood, having seen the whole broad possible spectrum in my various flocks of sheep. Dear me.

No I would never have asked someone to leave my parish! I am doing what I can to get them in…not drive them out.

One is a shepherd to a person wherever they are in their journey with the Lord/their journey of life. A priest does not have – and SHOULD NOT have – the luxury of determining who he ministers to or the spiritual state in which those people find themselves or where they are. Wherever they are is where you start. The sick sheep are the ones that need you the most. The 99 can graze on their own, all else being equal.

When Pope Francis…whom I think is the most wonderful of gifts to the Church…said the parish church is a field hospital, I shouted: “ALLELUIA! THIS ONE GETS IT!” You don’t know what is coming through your confessional/office/parish door at any given moment with the request: “FIX, please.”

As a parish priest, my parish door was always open…so was the office door. There did not even have to be good will. Some people had rage or anger or woundedness from life that they needed to work through. And guess where the rage, anger, woundedness gets vented toward God, since the person can’t fly up to His beautiful throne in Heaven? So there you are: You have a sick sheep with a temper tantrum. It was an ecclesiastical version of a casualty ward.

You have parishioners who are saints, you have parishioners muddling along as best they can, you have those who are limping along, and then there are those in total collapse and/or on their last legs. You have those of tremendous faith, those of little faith, those who have lost faith…and everything else in between.

None of these people were a category. None of them were their spiritual condition or malady. They were a human being that God sent to you, without benefit of a personalised repair manual pinned to them.

Priests see it all. You do as much as you can to help as many as you can and you pray that, by the end of it all, you’ve managed to help each soul to be closer to God than when God sent them to you. Of course, you know it is not so and there will be those that appear no better or are even worse off and you’re still praying for them decades after you last saw or had contact with them, hoping… For the most part, you won’t know…until you’re dead…what the eventual outcome was for the vast lot.

One trusts the Holy Spirit that, at the very least, He won’t allow you to make a total ruin of it.

I always enjoy your replies Father. I’m curious whether you found this sort of person often in your experience. Did you?

I know that you’re Italian and I would guess in Italy, if you want to be a member of a church, it probably will be a Catholic one. In the United States, I wonder if this sort of person would be more likely to join a mainstream Protestant church. My friend’s church for example has a symbolic and open communion in which he is happy to take part, while a non-believer in a Catholic parish either can’t participate in the communion or does so dishonestly. And of course, my friend has the standard American secular morality which is more or less welcome in his church in a way that it never could be a Catholic one.

 

[puzzledtoo]

Thank you to the op for this thread. What I’ve read has opened my eyes a little bit and maybe I’ll be able to be less judgmental of those folks of any tradition that I tend to view as posers. Those that I believe don’t practice what their religion preaches. This has been a major issue for me. Thank you again-blessings to all.

 

[bitterhope]

I do know a few people like this and I find them inspiring. I am positive there are many more than we realize. There was a point in time that my husband was like the friend described in the OP. Praise Jesus he has regained his faith! If struggling to believe or completely unable to believe they are able to do so much good, why don’t the rest of us? Truly inspiring. Thank you for posting this.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I suppose Catholicism is also cultural. I have a lot of non-practising family and I wonder if we had lived in the sort of culture where people stay where they grew up they would have continued going to church to please their elders. It must have been pretty common back when there were social pressures that kept people in church.

 

[carefullytread]

I suppose Catholicism is also cultural. I have a lot of non-practising family and I wonder if we had lived in the sort of culture where people stay where they grew up they would have continued going to church to please their elders. It must have been pretty common back when there were social pressures that kept people in church.

I’m sure that happens a lot in some places. What made my friend so interesting to me is that he is quite active in his church. It’s one thing for someone to put in the required face-time so that their relatives won’t ostracize them, something quite different to make the church an important part of your life even when you don’t accept any of the religion.

I think it’s an interesting question about how churches would view situations where important people in their outreach ministries aren’t believers! My friend does a lot of outward facing humanitarian ministries with his church while not caring about “spreading the Gospels”. He says he wants to help in a way that involves human relationships and love and only churches are comfortable with that sort of language.

 

[Rosebud77]

I’m sure that happens a lot in some places. What made my friend so interesting to me is that he is quite active in his church. It’s one thing for someone to put in the required face-time so that their relatives won’t ostracize them, something quite different to make the church an important part of your life even when you don’t accept any of the religion.

I think it’s an interesting question about how churches would view situations where important people in their outreach ministries aren’t believers! My friend does a lot of outward facing humanitarian ministries with his church while not caring about “spreading the Gospels”. He says he wants to help in a way that involves human relationships and love and only churches are comfortable with that sort of language.

Thinking about this is relation to our wonderful Chernobyl Children’s Trust

chernobylchildrenstrust.ie/

Not a church organisation but many are church folk. Maybe here we are finding ways to counter the words of your last para

 

[Katherine438]

Oh my. I arrive at the end of life, after these many years in the priesthood, having seen the whole broad possible spectrum in my various flocks of sheep. Dear me.

No I would never have asked someone to leave my parish! I am doing what I can to get them in…not drive them out.

One is a shepherd to a person wherever they are in their journey with the Lord/their journey of life. A priest does not have – and SHOULD NOT have – the luxury of determining who he ministers to or the spiritual state in which those people find themselves or where they are. Wherever they are is where you start. The sick sheep are the ones that need you the most. The 99 can graze on their own, all else being equal.

When Pope Francis…whom I think is the most wonderful of gifts to the Church…said the parish church is a field hospital, I shouted: “ALLELUIA! THIS ONE GETS IT!” You don’t know what is coming through your confessional/office/parish door at any given moment with the request: “FIX, please.”

As a parish priest, my parish door was always open…so was the office door. There did not even have to be good will. Some people had rage or anger or woundedness from life that they needed to work through. And guess where the rage, anger, woundedness gets vented toward God, since the person can’t fly up to His beautiful throne in Heaven? So there you are: You have a sick sheep with a temper tantrum. It was an ecclesiastical version of a casualty ward.

You have parishioners who are saints, you have parishioners muddling along as best they can, you have those who are limping along, and then there are those in total collapse and/or on their last legs. You have those of tremendous faith, those of little faith, those who have lost faith…and everything else in between.

None of these people were a category. None of them were their spiritual condition or malady. They were a human being that God sent to you, without benefit of a personalised repair manual pinned to them.

Priests see it all. You do as much as you can to help as many as you can and you pray that, by the end of it all, you’ve managed to help each soul to be closer to God than when God sent them to you. Of course, you know it is not so and there will be those that appear no better or are even worse off and you’re still praying for them decades after you last saw or had contact with them, hoping… For the most part, you won’t know…until you’re dead…what the eventual outcome was for the vast lot.

One trusts the Holy Spirit that, at the very least, He won’t allow you to make a total ruin of it.

I once spoke to my parish priest in anger in a letter … I received back the most God-like letter that one could ever imagine … it’s amazing what priests have to put up with … and how they can bring God back to your heart with the way they respond.

I loved your response in this thread … God Bless You Father.