Non-Biblical References to Jesus

[OpenSource]

Hello, I was wondering if someone could help me out?

There doesn’t appear to be any non-biblical references to Jesus Christ. Amazing considering all the miracles he was doing at the time.

Here are a couple of excerpts in my research:

“It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life”. This confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831–1903) of Trinity College, Cambridge:

‘It may then come as something of a surprise, almost an embarrassment, to recognize that the earliest statements about Jesus are in the form of belief rather than history in the modern sense … theology takes precedence over history in the Christian story.’
– J. L. Houlden (Jesus – A Question of Identity, p11)

Is anyone aware of any sources that might be able to refute these claims or is Christianity based on pure faith?

Thanks,

 

[JaKael02]

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. 116 AD), book 15, chapter 44.[1]

The context of the passage is the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of the city in 64 AD during the reign of Roman Emperor Nero.[2] The passage is one of the earliest non-Christian references to the origin of Christianity, the execution of Christ described in the Canonical gospels, and the presence and persecution of Christians in 1st-century Rome.[3][4]

Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source, [5][6][7] In terms of an overall context, historian Ronald Mellor has stated that the Annals is “Tacitus’s crowning achievement” which represents the “pinnacle of Roman historical writing”.[8]

 

[DavidFilmer]

“It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life”. This confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831–1903) of Trinity College, Cambridge:

WHAT??? He’s never heard of the Early Church Fathers? We cite them all the time on this forum.

You can find Philip Schaff’s 38-volume (!) collection of the writings of the Early Church Fathers online here:
[ccel.org/fathers.html]("You can find Philip Schaff’s 38-volume collection of the writings of the Early Church Fathers online here: http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html
)
and you may find additional ECF texts collected by Roger Pearse here:
ccel.org/p/pearse/morefathers/home.html

I do believe those writings make three or four (thousand) references to Jesus.

 

[OpenSource]

Thank you, I’ll have to read that book.

I was also trying to put to light some information regarding the NT after considering a Medieval Sourcebook by Eusebius of Caesarea detailing the life of the Roman Emperor Constantine:

“Eusebius then arranged for scribes to produce “fifty sumptuous copies … to be written on parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in their art” (ibid.). “These orders,” said Eusebius, “were followed by the immediate execution of the work itself … we sent him [Constantine] magnificently and elaborately bound volumes of three-fold and four-fold forms” (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, p.36). They were the “New Testimonies”, and this is the first mention (c. 331) of the New Testament in the historical record. With his instructions fulfilled, Constantine then decreed that the New Testimonies would thereafter be called the “word of the Roman Saviour God” (Life of Constantine, vol. iii, p. 29) and official to all presbyters sermonising in the Roman Empire. He then ordered earlier presbyterial manuscripts and the records of the council “burnt” and declared that “any man found concealing writings should be stricken off from his shoulders” (beheaded)”

All other books to be burned, including the Torah/OT.

It included the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria in Egypt 391AD

In 391AD, Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan temples. The Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria (Egypt)complied with this request. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt, the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions,the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples then he destroyed the Serapeum. Historia Ecclesiastica

The Serapeum housed the Great Library of Alexandria

And the closing of the oracle of Delphi:

The Delphic oracle was established in the 8th century BC. Its last recorded response was given in 393 AD, when the emperor Theodosius I ordered pagan temples to cease operation. During this period the Delphic Oracle was the most prestigious and authoritative oracle in the Greek world.

There are copies of the new testament that date to this time in Europe, but the bible as a whole doesn’t appear for at least another 200 years in Europe.

“the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD” (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

Why no Jewish references in any of these new testaments?

Hesus (Mark 1:9),… doesn’t know of Mary, a virgin birth or mass murders of baby boys by Herod. (Mark 1:1), and the modern-day family tree tracing a “messianic bloodline” back to King David is non-existent in all ancient Bibles, as are the now-called “messianic prophecies” (51 in total) No supernatural appearance of a resurrected Jesus Christ is recorded in any ancient Gospels

They are also lacking in the oldest Armenian version of the New Testament, in sixth-century manuscripts of the Ethiopic version and an ancient Latin manuscript of Mark, code-named “K” by analysts.

It is claimed the bible comes from this time, but there isn’t any physical evidence to support this claim.

For some reason, Eusebius only made cannon tables for the NT.

The canon tables of Eusebius of Caesarea:
These tables, which predate the text of the Vulgate, were developed to cross-reference the Gospels. Eusebius divided the Gospel into chapters and then created tables that allowed readers to find where a given episode in the life of Christ was located in each of the Gospels. The canon tables were traditionally included in the prefatory material in most mediaeval copies of the Vulgate text of the Gospels.

The Vulgate is a late 4th-century Latin translation of the Bible. It was largely the work of St. Jerome, who was commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382 to make a revision of the old Latin translations.

Unfortunatley the oldest copy that can be found C545 only contains the NT.

The earliest vulgate bible is the 8th century.

A number of early manuscripts containing or reflecting the Vulgate survive today. Dating from the 8th century, the Codex Amiatinus is the earliest surviving manuscript of the complete Vulgate Bible. The Codex Fuldensis, dating from around 545, contains most of the New Testament in the Vulgate version en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate#Manuscripts_and_early_editions

In the original NT, Jesus is not Jewish, nevermind kind of the Jews.

They also seemed to view Judaism as a threat, and definitely a different belief.

“It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the evangelists themselves … they [the New Testament collection] are supplied with titles which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those writings.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, pp. 655-6) Therefore they are not Gospels written “according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John”, as publicly stated"

So who were the authors of the NT as we know it today?

 

[OpenSource]

WHAT??? He’s never heard of the Early Church Fathers? We cite them all the time on this forum.

You can find Philip Schaff’s 38-volume (!) collection of the writings of the Early Church Fathers online here:
[ccel.org/fathers.html]("You can find Philip Schaff’s 38-volume collection of the writings of the Early Church Fathers online here: http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html
)
and you may find additional ECF texts collected by Roger Pearse here:
ccel.org/p/pearse/morefathers/home.html

I do believe those writings make three or four (thousand) references to Jesus.

As much as I appreciate the early church fathers, I’m looking for more historical records. Thank you for the references though.

Edit: Of course the early church fathers are going to reference Jesus thousands of times. I think you’re missing the point here.

 

[snarflemike]

As much as I appreciate the early church fathers, I’m looking for more historical records. Thank you for the references though.

Edit: Of course the early church fathers are going to reference Jesus thousands of times. I think you’re missing the point here.

Why are they not historical references?

 

[Church_Militant]

Waitaminute…don’t the ECF count as exactly what you need? They are non Biblical historical accounts, aren’t they?

 

[OpenSource]

Waitaminute…don’t the ECF count as exactly what you need? They are non Biblical historical accounts, aren’t they?

I guess non-biased would be a better word for it.

 

[grasscutter]

Chapter One in Michael Coren’s new book, Heresy, gives many example of early non-biblical writings about the fact of Jesus Christ’s existence. Some of the early - 1st and 2nd century - writers were also anti-Christian and still acknowledged the existence and life and message of Jesus.

 

[johnnyjones]

Jesus is referenced in the Talmud.

 

[OpenSource]

Chapter One in Michael Coren’s new book, Heresy, gives many example of early non-biblical writings about the fact of Jesus Christ’s existence. Some of the early - 1st and 2nd century - writers were also anti-Christian and still acknowledged the existence and life and message of Jesus.

Cool thanks I’ll look that up. You’ve answered what I needed, thank you

 

[JaneBennet]

The most widely cited historical reference I know of is Josephus. Supposedly, he makes two references to Jesus, but I am only including the one that is pretty much accepted by historians as authentic. From Wikipedia:

Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 CE

In the second, brief mention, Josephus calls “James the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”

Josephus Antiquities 20:9.1

 

[OpenSource]

I wonder how it came to be that 2 scholars Frederic Farrar (1831–1903) of Trinity College, Cambridge and J. L. Houlden came to that conclusion?

 

[_Abyssinia]

Let’s take a look at Julius Caesar, one of Rome’s most prominent figures. Caesar is well know for his military conquests. After his Gallic Wars, he made the famous statement, “I came, I saw, I conquered.” Only five sources report his military conquests: writings by Caesar himself, Cicero, Livy, the Salona Decree, and Appian (and Appian was second century, more than 150 years after Julius died). Why didn’t more writers mention his great military conquests? In 150 years his death, more non-Christian authors alone comment on Jesus than all of the sources who mentioned Julius Caesar’s great military conquests within 150 years of his death.

Let’s look at an even better example, a contemporary of Jesus. Tiberius Caesar (Nov. 16, 42 BC – March 16, AD 37), was the Roman emperor at the time of Jesus’ ministry and execution, and died less than 4 years after Jesus died in 33 AD. Tiberius is mentioned by ten sources within 150 years of his death: Tacitus, Suetonius, Velleius Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Seneca, Valerius Maximus, Josephus, and Luke. Compare that to Jesus’ forty-two total sources in the same length of time. That’s more than four times the number of total sources who mention the Roman emperor during roughly the same time. If we only considered the number of secular non-Christian sources who mention Jesus and Tiberius within 150 years of their lives, we arrive at a tie of 9 each. (Tiberius’s number reduces from ten to nine since Luke is a Christian source.)

Craig Bloomberg, who served as the editor for and contributor to a large scholarly work on the Gospels (Gospel Perspectives), provided four reasons why more was not written about Jesus in his time: “the humble beginnings of Christianity, the remote location of Palestine on the eastern frontiers of the Roman empire, the small percentage of the works of the ancient Graeco-Roman historians which have survived, and the lack of attention paid by those which are extant to Jewish figures in general” (Bloomberg, Historical Reliability, 197. See Gary R. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 64-67).

What we have concerning Jesus is actually quite impressive. We can start with approximately nine traditional authors of the New Testament. If we consider critical thesis that other authors wrote pastoral letters and such letters as Ephesians and 2 Thessalonians, we’d have an even larger number. Another twenty early Christian authors and four heretical writings mention Jesus within 150 years of his death on the cross. (Clement of Rome’s letter to the church in Corinth; 2 Clement whose author is unknown; the seven letters of Igantius; Polycarp’s letter to the Philippians; The Martyrdom of Polycarp; Didache; the letter of Barnabas; The Shepherd of Hermas; Fragments of Papias; the letter of Diognetus; the Apocalypse o Peter (not to be confused with the Nag Hammadi text of similar name); the Gospel of Peter; the Epistula Apostolorum; and the works of Justyn Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, and Melito of Sardis. The four heretical writings are the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, and Treatise on Resurrection-see Habermas, Historical Jesus, 208-15

Moreover, nine secular, non-Christian sources mention Jesus within 150 years: Joseph, the Jewish historian; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a politician of Rome; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Lucian, the Greek satirist; Celsus, a Roman philosopher; the historians Suetonius and Thallus, as well as the prisoner Mara Bar-Serapion (highly regarded in a British Museum). In all, at least forty-two authors, nine of them secular, mention Jesus within 150 years of his death. (see Habermas, Historical Jesus, ch. 9)

You can even add more on top of that. We know only about half of what Roman historian wrote in the first century about an ancient Mediterranean history has survived. Suetonius is aware of the writings of Asclepiades of Mendes, yet, his writings are no longer available. Herod the Great’s secretary, Nicholas of Damascus, wrote a Universal History in 144 books, none of which has survived. Livy, the great Roman historian, has suffered a similar fate. (Documented by Paul Maier, Distinguished Professor of Ancient History at Western Michigan University, for the information on Nicholas of Damascus and Livy)

We also know of several Christian writings no longer available. For example, an influential church leader in the early part of the second century named Papias wrote five books that are quoted by several early church fathers. (Papias, Expositions of the Sayings of the Lord. See Robert H. Gundry, Mark: A Commentary on His Apology for the Cross, 1026-45). However, none of these books have survived. Only a few citations and slight summary information remain. (See Fragments of Papias). Quadratus was as Christian leader who wrote a defense of the Christian faith to the Roman Emperor Hadrian around 125. However, if Eusebius had not quoted a paragraph and mentioned his work, we would be totally unaware of its composition (Ecclesiastical History, 3:37; 4:3). The five books of Recollections, written by Hegesippus in the second century, have likewise been lost. Only fragments have been preserved, mostly by Eusebius

biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3289-Compare-Caesar-Tiberius-and-Jesus-150-Years-After-Their-Deaths

 

[dean24us]

The most widely cited historical reference I know of is Josephus. Supposedly, he makes two references to Jesus, but I am only including the one that is pretty much accepted by historians as authentic. From Wikipedia:

Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 CE

In the second, brief mention, Josephus calls “James the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”

Josephus Antiquities 20:9.1

As JaneBennet mentioned, Josephus is probably the best bet for an unbiased historical reference. Josephus was a Jew – not a Christian – and his writings are widely considered historically accurate in academic circles.

God bless,
Dean

 

[xzereus]

Thank you, I’ll have to read that book.

I was also trying to put to light some information regarding the NT after considering a Medieval Sourcebook by Eusebius of Caesarea detailing the life of the Roman Emperor Constantine:

“Eusebius then arranged for scribes to produce “fifty sumptuous copies … to be written on parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in their art” (ibid.). “These orders,” said Eusebius, “were followed by the immediate execution of the work itself … we sent him [Constantine] magnificently and elaborately bound volumes of three-fold and four-fold forms” (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, p.36). They were the “New Testimonies”, and this is the first mention (c. 331) of the New Testament in the historical record. With his instructions fulfilled, Constantine then decreed that the New Testimonies would thereafter be called the “word of the Roman Saviour God” (Life of Constantine, vol. iii, p. 29) and official to all presbyters sermonising in the Roman Empire. He then ordered earlier presbyterial manuscripts and the records of the council “burnt” and declared that “any man found concealing writings should be stricken off from his shoulders” (beheaded)”

All other books to be burned, including the Torah/OT.

It included the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria in Egypt 391AD

Based on the post you made, it doesn’t appear that you’re interested in historical sources. Why is it that you’re willing to automatically accept as true entire blocks of text from anti-Catholic/anti-Christian websites while at the same time you believe that the ECF are not a reliable historical source?

Did you even possibly check your sources on this one? I can almost guarantee you that the Great Library of Alexandria was burned well before 391AD. While possible, there is absolutely no proof via ancient texts that any of these writings were indeed spread to pagans temples which were later destroyed by Theophilus (though he was unarguably involved in the destruction of pagan temples). It is suggested by some that the writings in these temples were entirely different compilations.

I don’t know which website you’re getting all this from, but stop reading it. If you believe everything you read on those sites simply because they put a fake reference then you’re never going to be able to refute all of it. The claims are simply ridiculous and should be treated as anti-Catholic fiction.

 

[OpenSource]

Based on the post you made, it doesn’t appear that you’re interested in historical sources. Why is it that you’re willing to automatically accept as true entire blocks of text from anti-Catholic/anti-Christian websites while at the same time you believe that the ECF are not a reliable historical source?

Did you even possibly check your sources on this one? I can almost guarantee you that the Great Library of Alexandria was burned well before 391AD. While possible, there is absolutely no proof via ancient texts that any of these writings were indeed spread to pagans temples which were later destroyed by Theophilus (though he was unarguably involved in the destruction of pagan temples). It is suggested by some that the writings in these temples were entirely different compilations.

I don’t know which website you’re getting all this from, but stop reading it. If you believe everything you read on those sites simply because they put a fake reference then you’re never going to be able to refute all of it. The claims are simply ridiculous and should be treated as anti-Catholic fiction.

Ancient and modern sources identify four possible occasions for the partial or complete destruction of the Library of Alexandria: Julius Caesar’s fire in the Alexandrian War, in 48 BC; the attack of Aurelian in 270 – 275 AD; the decree of Theophilus in AD 391; and the Muslim conquest in 642 AD or thereafter.

Exercising my free will, I can read from whatever sources I please. Not only are your statements erroneous, but are also extremely judgemental and paranoid. I am merely seeking to understand my heritage and don’t need to be given your advice. If you’re going to call the claims ridiculous, that’s a pretty broad statement with nothing to back it up.

 

[Uranage]

As much as I appreciate the early church fathers, I’m looking for more historical records. Thank you for the references though.

Edit: Of course the early church fathers are going to reference Jesus thousands of times. I think you’re missing the point here.

What does that even mean…”more historical records”? You are going to have to explain why references to a historical Jesus by His immediate followers and their associates is insufficient to establish the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, if that’s what you’re getting at.
You’re quotations of Farrar and Houlden are unimpressive at best and deceptive at worst. How many modern day historians of antiquity question the existence of Jesus of Nazareth? How many biblical scholars-both Christian and non-Christian-question Jesus’ existence? Outside of Robert Price and Richard Carrier, who else is there? Even Bart Ehrman says that this is a non-issue.
You’re dismissal of the early fathers is equally strange. Why think that Clement of Rome, for instance, was not in a position to know whether or not Jesus existed? The early opponents of Christianity surely would have raised the issue had there been any question of the controversial man’s existence. Why does Justin Martyr not need to engage with his interlocutor, Trypho the Jew, about Jesus’ existence? Surely, if there was any question of Jesus’ existence, Trypho would have raised it-especially given the number of criticisms he did raise against Christianity.

 

[onemangang]

For a quick, easy read that sites historical references you could always read " The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel

 

[Hunter24]

Hello, I was wondering if someone could help me out?

There doesn’t appear to be any non-biblical references to Jesus Christ. Amazing considering all the miracles he was doing at the time.

Here are a couple of excerpts in my research:

“It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life”. This confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831–1903) of Trinity College, Cambridge:

‘It may then come as something of a surprise, almost an embarrassment, to recognize that the earliest statements about Jesus are in the form of belief rather than history in the modern sense … theology takes precedence over history in the Christian story.’
– J. L. Houlden (Jesus – A Question of Identity, p11)

Is anyone aware of any sources that might be able to refute these claims or is Christianity based on pure faith?

Thanks,

There are actualy several non-biblical references to Jesus. The ones I’m most familiar with are roman records that call Jesus a prophet among the Jews who some feared would spark a Jewish rebelion against roman rule. There actualy are court records of Jesus trial as well. However I’m not aware of any non-christian testimony on his miracles.