Non-biological "life"? Here on Earth?

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That is your own problem.
Really? Well, it does depend on your goal. If it is to argue with the ones who disagree with you, then it sure is your problem that you fail to respond to counterarguments properly. If it is not your goal, then, I suppose, it is not … But then it would be hard to explain what are you doing in this forum…
It is funny that no one takes the effort to reflect upon the quandary of the biologists, who are unable to come to a consensus about the diving line between the “living” and “inanimate” matter. And it is remarkable, since the very subject of biology is to study “life”, and yet the biologists are unable to define it.
They are supposed to get definition of life from philosophers.
 
They are supposed to get definition of life from philosophers.
Which philosophers? You talk to ten philosophers about any subject and you will get eleven responses.

I remember the old saying:
  1. Those who know it, do it.
  2. Those who cannot do it, teach it.
  3. Those who cannot even teach it, manage it.
  4. Those who are unable to manage it, regulate it.
  5. And finally, those who are unable to do any one the above, assert that they have the final answers and everyone should turn to them with their problems… these are the philosophers.
 
We are a very inventive species, with a vivid imagination. Just look at the plethora of imaginary beings invented by humans, starting with “false (haha!)” gods, angels, demons, leprechauns, dragons, etc…
You call our beliefs based on imaginary beings. Could you be more polite? And less rude? I guess you missed the “Messages posted to this board must be polite” and “Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.” parts of the forum rules. Something to think about. How does that support your argument anyway, since you’re basing your argument on obscure facts, principles, and ideas (you even admit that biologists are not in consensus on the status of life for viruses, then go on to believe in the idea that computer viruses are living, a notion that will fail to be considered biological life are living too)? Your definition of life is different from many scientists, and what is taught in Biology courses. PS rocks do not have conscious. Do they adapt? Evolve? No.

ck12.org/biology/Characteristics-of-Life/lesson/Characteristics-of-Life—Advanced/r3/

Science at work.
 
you even admit that biologists are not in consensus on the status of life for viruses, then go on to believe in the idea that computer viruses are living, a notion that will fail to be considered biological life are living too
You missed the disclaimer: “IF the biological viruses are considered to be alive, then the computer viruses must be considered alive, too”. Of course you are free to deny that the biological viruses are alive, and you will find some biologists, who will agree with you. All that proves is that the concept of “life” is elusive.
PS rocks do not have conscious.
Not all life has consciousness.
Do they adapt? Evolve? No.
Have you observed them for about 100 million years? If no, then how do you know it?
 
Which philosophers? You talk to ten philosophers about any subject and you will get eleven responses.
The traditional way is to study their premises and evaluate their reasoning, rather than dismiss all of their conclusions as false because there are a plurality of them.
You missed the disclaimer: “IF the biological viruses are considered to be alive, then the computer viruses must be considered alive, too”.
Yes, he must have missed that:
So the conclusion is simple; non-biological life is HERE and it is here to stay. It is able to evolve, to change, to replicate itself it is able to do everything that “life” is supposed to do. So all you naysayers, who assert the impossibility of non-biological life, take notice: “you are wrong”!
Of course you are free to deny that the biological viruses are alive, and you will find some biologists, who will agree with you. All that proves is that the concept of “life” is elusive.
Elusive for all those ten or eleven other philosophers, biologists, etc, but not for you, which is why you really need to study them. Since your entire argument rests on whether biological viruses qualify as life, wouldn’t it first make sense to establish that biological viruses constitute life? Huh. May be.
 
Let me know when you find a virus I can buy cheep and train to go out and get my paper on cold, rainy, or snowy days. Then I will agree you may have an intelligent argument. 😃
Or a steady stream of negativity :D?
That’s exactly what I thought when I saw your first post.

This used to be a philosophy forum. You’ve shown you have the ability to try to mess up the thread, but you’ve not shown you have the ability to make a positive contribution. Philosophers can’t agree the definition of life, so it could be an interesting discussion. What say you?
 
No, because they are not subject to the laws of our physical universe. Heaven, God, and angels live/exist outside the physical boundaries that bind us, not them. Besides, don’t we have physical bodies in Heaven? And I’m sure a conscious for robot aliens wouldn’t make them biologically living, but living in his sense, without a soul. Perhaps consciousness can exist with out a soul, but only organisms (biological) can have souls.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579747
You may be aware of the phrase philosophical zombie (p-zombie), meaning someone who is indistinguishable from a normal human being, but who supposedly lacks some construct such as qualia or a soul.

The p-zombie is used in thinking about those constructs. For instance, suppose philosophers decide you are a p-zombie. Even though they can’t tell from your body or your behavior or anything physical, they conclude on grounds of logic alone that you don’t have a soul.

So that thought experiment asks philosophical questions such as: Is there a physical test for the presence of a soul? If there is no test, how can we possibly know whether an entity (human or alien) has or doesn’t have a soul? In those circumstance is it even moral, according to Christian values, to try to judge, or is this something only God ought decide?
 
The traditional way is to study their premises and evaluate their reasoning, rather than dismiss all of their conclusions as false because there are a plurality of them.
Life is too short. I will wait to see if they can “fight it out” among themselves.
Since your entire argument rests on whether biological viruses qualify as life, wouldn’t it first make sense to establish that biological viruses constitute life? Huh. May be.
It is a matter of opinion. Viruses exhibit many of the properties which are usually quoted to be necessary for “life”. What it shows is that the dividing line is “blurry”.
 
You may be aware of the phrase philosophical zombie (p-zombie), meaning someone who is indistinguishable from a normal human being, but who supposedly lacks some construct such as qualia or a soul.

The p-zombie is used in thinking about those constructs. For instance, suppose philosophers decide you are a p-zombie. Even though they can’t tell from your body or your behavior or anything physical, they conclude on grounds of logic alone that you don’t have a soul.

So that thought experiment asks philosophical questions such as: Is there a physical test for the presence of a soul? If there is no test, how can we possibly know whether an entity (human or alien) has or doesn’t have a soul? In those circumstance is it even moral, according to Christian values, to try to judge, or is this something only God ought decide?
As far as I know, Christian values only consider two classes of entity in terms of who is owed as “ethical” treatment - God and humans. It does not offer anything along the lines of a physical test to determine whether some particular individual is owed ethical treatment prior to living out that obligation.

You, yourself, admitted that p-zombies could exist, in human form, such that we couldn’t know whether they were human or not. However, the ethical treatment of other humans does not depend upon this determination. Such treatment is not accorded to other humans based upon whether they pass some test or other. It is simply accorded based upon the presumption of their being human.

Demons ostensibly have souls, and perhaps of a higher order than humans, but their having a soul is not what determines the treatment owed to them

In other words, Christian values do not accord worth because of some test for a soul, but rather on the humanity of the person. Christianity, in terms of revealed teachings, is entirely mute on the question of according worth to other hypothetical beings. Now that may be because the revealed teachings are based upon certainty that such entities do not exist, but for sure, Christianity does not advocate testing to determine human status before endowing worth. It isn’t approached in those terms at all.

It is when we begin to use such presumptions that we get into trouble and, for example, end up killing millions upon millions of humans precisely because such claims are being made that we cannot know for certain that some particular humans (the unborn) have souls and because of this essentially misconceived notion that soul determination is within our prerogative that they don’t pass our arbitrary criteria for “personhood” and, therefore, we are in a position to deny them rights to life. This is completely off the rails, as far as Christianity is concerned and entirely beyond our pay grade.

As far as Christianity is concerned, there are two classes of beings that are morally relevant and that relevancy creates obligations on every individual human - God and other humans. All humans are presumed to be human and, in fact, we have a moral obligation to act on that presumption.

Angels are quite capable of looking after themselves and, no doubt, consequences will be forthcoming if the level of respect shown them is not appropriate, but no where is there a set of moral principles regarding what is our obligation towards them or any other class of being.

Treat other human beings as we would treat ourselves and render to God our entire will, mind and heart - that is all we need to know. There are no moral obligations with regard to any other being - although pragmatic determinations are always possible.
 
In other words, Christian values do not accord worth because of some test for a soul, but rather on the humanity of the person.
Now that is interesting. So how do you find out if the other “someone” is a human? The genetic makeup? That is totally arbitrary. What about the mutants? What about some hypothetical androids (artificially grown beings in a vat or a lab)? What about clones?

It is argued that humans are rational animals, the only ones who have an “immortal” soul. Since you say that the soul cannot be tested, and you also added that it is not important to test for it, you declared that the “humanness” is something that is not important?
All humans are presumed to be human…
What a great example of a circular definition.
… and, in fact, we have a moral obligation to act on that presumption.
So, if it looks like a human, if it acts like a human, we should accept it as a human. This is fine for me. I will accept all the humanoid “robots” and androids with an open arm as my fellow human beings. Will you?
 
Now that is interesting. So how do you find out if the other “someone” is a human? The genetic makeup? That is totally arbitrary. What about the mutants? What about some hypothetical androids (artificially grown beings in a vat or a lab)? What about clones?

It is argued that humans are rational animals, the only ones who have an “immortal” soul. Since you say that the soul cannot be tested, and you also added that it is not important to test for it, you declared that the “humanness” is something that is not important?

What a great example of a circular definition.

So, if it looks like a human, if it acts like a human, we should accept it as a human. This is fine for me. I will accept all the humanoid “robots” and androids with an open arm as my fellow human beings. Will you?
I doubt that you will.

Having obligations towards humans does not always entail accepting them “with open arms.” Moral obligations regarding “best interests” do not mean allowing rapists to rape, murderers to murder or thieves to steal, now does it? The only moral obligation that exists is to treat humans as I treat myself because I am human. Humanoid robots and androids are not human, now are they? Otherwise, why would you call them humanoid or android?

Now that need not stop me from treating them in ways that approach or bear some similarity to the ways I treat human beings, but I can do that without, thereby, being compelled to some ontological or moral position regarding their humanity or even being obligated to seeing them as human.

I just don’t see your point. The fact that android behaviour might approach or be indistinguishable from human-like behaviour need never obligate me to any moral position regarding androids even though I might always treat them “like” other humans at the same time as acknowledging that I have no obligation to do so.

What you are missing here, is that my faith gets me off the hook, whereas your lack of faith leaves you dangling. I am obliged to have the same concern for other humans as I reasonably have for myself because I am human. What it means to be human is, in some sense, irrelevant because I do not fully comprehend that even regarding myself.

I only know that God wills me to be concerned for humans to the extent that they are humans not to the extent that I can make them out to be. When the time arrives when androids become human-like, God, I am sure, will reveal what needs to be known in no uncertain terms. That won’t be left to me alone to determine, even though you will have that problem, since you think it is, solely, up to you.
 
What a great example of a circular definition.
Perhaps, but no more circular than yours.

If it looks and acts like a duck it is a duck.

If it looks and acts like a human it is a human.

Begging, completely, the question of what humans look and act like.
 
Now that is interesting. So how do you find out if the other “someone” is a human? The genetic makeup? That is totally arbitrary.
Well, no, actually. Not TOTALLY arbitrary. And it certainly isn’t question begging.

It is a scientifically objective means of making the determination. I thought that was, for you, the gold standard?
 
Which philosophers? You talk to ten philosophers about any subject and you will get eleven responses.

I remember the old saying:
  1. Those who know it, do it.
  2. Those who cannot do it, teach it.
  3. Those who cannot even teach it, manage it.
  4. Those who are unable to manage it, regulate it.
  5. And finally, those who are unable to do any one the above, assert that they have the final answers and everyone should turn to them with their problems… these are the philosophers.
Life is too short. I will wait to see if they can “fight it out” among themselves.
Yes, we get it. You think that Philosophy is a waste of time. But then… what are you doing in “Philosophy” subforum (would that be the 6th point for your list? :))? It is not like you are actually doing anything productive here from your point of view… And it doesn’t look like much of entertainment (you give an impression of being more angry than all other participants combined, and you lose most of the fun by refusing to hear out counterarguments)…
 
As far as I know, Christian values only consider two classes of entity in terms of who is owed as “ethical” treatment - God and humans.
Do you see this fine thing? Do you admire the humanity of it? Because [Native Americans], my son, they believe everything is alive. Not only man and animals, but also water, earth, stone, and also the things from them like that hair. …] But the white man, they believe everything is dead. Stone, earth, animals. And people! Even their own people! If things keep trying to live, white man will rub them out. That is the difference. – Little Big Man
All humans are presumed to be human and, in fact, we have a moral obligation to act on that presumption.
And herein lies the problem: by your own words, everything not classified as a “human” is fair game. Yet you have never defined what a human is.

Can you define a human?
 
That’s exactly what I thought when I saw your first post.

This used to be a philosophy forum. You’ve shown you have the ability to try to mess up the thread, but you’ve not shown you have the ability to make a positive contribution. Philosophers can’t agree the definition of life, so it could be an interesting discussion. What say you?
Philosophy isn’t about consensus, it is about truth. So sorry you don’t appreciate my contributions, we can’t all be perfect. At least I’m certain where I stand, " What say you? "

😃
Linus2nd
 
The only moral obligation that exists is to treat humans as I treat myself because I am human. Humanoid robots and androids are not human, now are they?
Since you never disclosed your definition about who is “human”, I cannot answer that question.
Otherwise, why would you call them humanoid or android?
To indicate their origin. Is the “million dollar man” - a cyborg a “human”? All his organs are replaced with artificial prostheses, except his brain. And maybe half of his brain is replaced with a super-duper computer which works in excellent harmony with the biological brain? Is “he” still a human?
I just don’t see your point. The fact that android behaviour might approach or be indistinguishable from human-like behaviour need never obligate me to any moral position regarding androids even though I might always treat them “like” other humans at the same time as acknowledging that I have no obligation to do so.
So they will “live” at your whim, you are not obliged to treat them decently.
What it means to be human is, in some sense, irrelevant because I do not fully comprehend that even regarding myself.
Irrelevant? You are supposed to treat humans alike, and you cannot even define, who “is” a human or not?
When the time arrives when androids become human-like, God, I am sure, will reveal what needs to be known in no uncertain terms.
You are “sure”? Talk about blind faith :). But the church says that the times of revelation are over… so you are in danger of committing a heresy here.
Well, no, actually.
Really? The so-called human DNA is not a precise value, it is a very vague interval, and we don’t even know the boundaries of it. How will you classify a seriously mutant person?
 
Yes, we get it. You think that Philosophy is a waste of time. But then… what are you doing in “Philosophy” subforum (would that be the 6th point for your list? :))? It is not like you are actually doing anything productive here from your point of view…
Oh it is partially for fun.
And it doesn’t look like much of entertainment (you give an impression of being more angry than all other participants combined, and you lose most of the fun by refusing to hear out counterarguments)…
It merely proves that you should not make hasty decisions.
 
And herein lies the problem: by your own words, everything not classified as a “human” is fair game.
That would be your presumption, not mine.

Having obligations with respect to A, B and C does not imply “anything goes” in all other respects. It isn’t an either/or proposition, merely because you take it that way.

Stay away from the edge of the pit! does not fill in the details with respect to how to live fully and completely.

In a sense, morality keeps us from becoming inhuman, but does not bring us any closer to what it means to be human.
 
You are “sure”? Talk about blind faith :). But the church says that the times of revelation are over… so you are in danger of committing a heresy here.
Then, apparently, you have your answer as whether androids will ever become sufficiently “humanlike” to pose an issue.
 
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