Non Catholic Arguments

[plasmadash]

Could you give me Non Catholic arguments that you know of and its Catholic refutation? Please put biblical citations, from the writings of the Church Fathers and Magisterium.

 

[Gorgias]

Wow! That’s quite a request!

Are you familiar with the ending of the Gospel of John? The part where it is written about Jesus’ actions, “if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written”…?

Well, maybe it’s not quite that extensive, but if you described each of the objections to the Catholic faith that have ever been raised, as well as the Catholic response… well, it’d be a lot of writing!

Is there anything specific that you want an answer to? Or, perhaps, would you like a reference to a good book in apologetics or the basics of the Catholic faith?

 

[plasmadash]

Well, I’m sorry if my question is too harsh. I am just interested in apologetics. The specific topics I prefer the most are the two pillars of Reformation: Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

 

[BrunoMaria]

The question is: How does a person get connected to this lake of living water Jesus spoke of in Joh 4,10. The women on the well didn’t own it. Most living on earth don’t own it. Even many Christians don’t.

Yes, as Gal 5,22 or Rom 14,17 is stated; this living water; this joy of belief, this Christian joy, is the fruit of and the joy in the Holy Spirit- but why then do even many Christians and even Catholics lack it?

Baptism alone doesn’t make it. Sole belief - faith - scriptura - and not even sole gratia, God’s grace alone, doesn’t fill this lake with the living water. These - each by itself precious presents of God; other than in Luther’s dogma, never solely make our connection to God - if not connected with deeds as St. James wrote in James 2,14-18. It’s only then, that a believer is given the alive water.
He - and be he even a Christian - who doesn’t heed this truth, prays to something he does not know (John 4,22).

Let’s be open and thankful for God’s living water and receive it from Him we do know, because God revealed Himself often enough in both covenants. And then let’s pray THANK YOU DEAR GOD, THAT I AM ALLOWED TO KNOW YOU. It’s only then, that we really drink of the water in John 4,14, Jesus gives us and so lits the Christian Joy in us, that’s truly profound and established by Jesus Christ.

One of the main mistakes Luther cemented in Evangelical belief is his flawed doctrine of “…sola scriptura…” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

Solus Christus! - Sola scriptura! - Sola fide! - Sola gratia! is wrong, for belief isn’t all that easy - we have to work for it:
Yes, Jesus Christ gave us all divine weapons to fight our way through to Him, and change the world; but it’s us who has to fight and do good works.

Yes, scripture tells us all divine things as far as we can bear it.
But though according to Romans 13,1-5 we have to accept leadership. Though: What about leaders like Hitler? So “sola scriptura” without our works of thinking can’t work either.

Yes, belief is fondation of our life, but James 2,26 tells us:
As the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
So “sola fide” is wrong too.

And what about “sola gratia”? Ok, the crucified right of Christ was saved by the Grace of God only, for God knew how his life would run from ow on. But as we hear in (among others) Mat 21,28-31 we learn that those sons who did work for the Father where worthy - not the those who simply loved his father but didn’t bring fruit.

Let’s do alike. Not only our bread we are defined to earn on hard labour (Gen 3,19), but also heaven we have to struggle for on deeds and the fruits of our deeds we bring before God and are written in the book of life as we’ll see and will be judged after!

Yours
Bruno

 

[agnes_therese]

Well, I’m sorry if my question is too harsh. I am just interested in apologetics. The specific topics I prefer the most are the two pillars of Reformation: Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

It’s not that it’s harsh, it’s just way too huge to answer. You asked for “Non Catholic arguments that you know of and its Catholic refutation?” – there are thousands and thousands.
Even narrowed down a bit as you did in your second post, it’s still a massive request. You might want to do some searches here on CAF, and on the Vatican website, and then ask some more specific questions.

 

[Neofight]

You seem hungry for the faith, and that’s great.

As interesting as apologetics is, that is a calling to be considered only after we have first laid a strong foundation of faith.

It might be better to use the next year or so submerging yourself in learning the fundamentals of the faith (and you seem to be taking on that challenge with the posts you have made so far, so, congratulations).

The next step might be evangelization. Spread the word to those you do not know the good news of the gospel, and the re-evangelization of fellow Catholics who have been away from the church.

Apologetics is the art of defending the faith. To do the job well you must be well trained in persuasive argumentation and very knowledgable in sacred scripture, sacred tradition, the writings of the church fathers, and the catechism.

The problem with jumping into apologetics without being prepared is that your defense falls short, and the person(s) you are trying to make a point to may soundly defeat you, raising doubt about our faith in others, and perhaps even yourself.

The other danger of lack of proper traing to enter into apologetics is the tendency to yell and carry one rather than to persuasively make a point with charity and humility.

Peace and all good!

 

[Steveabrous]

Well, I’m sorry if my question is too harsh. I am just interested in apologetics. The specific topics I prefer the most are the two pillars of Reformation: Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

Sola fida is refuted in James chapter 2 :

“20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless.”

“24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.”

Sola scriptura is self refuting. In order for scripture alone to be valid scripture must proclaim it and it doesn’t in fact it say "

2nd Thes. 2:15:

“So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by*** word of mouth***(tradition) or by*** letter.***(scripture)”

 

[Church_Militant]

PD, you’re asking too much for a single thread here. However there are excellent resources available that can well equip you in apologetics.

I suggest that you start with Beginning Apologetics Volume 1: How to Explain and Defend the Catholic Faith and seriously consider investing in the entire series which is available from catholic Answers.

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Beyond that, there are very good books out there by guys like Karl Keating that are apologetics gold mines and treasures.
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[PattiDay]

Do you have access to an AM or FM Catholic radio station? My favorite radio program for apologetics is Catholic Answers Live, a two-hour program on Mon-thru-Friday that has helped me to learn so much about the Catholic faith. My state doesn’t have any Catholic radio stations, but I listen to EWTN radio channel 130, or you can listen to it over the internet right here under the “Radio” button, or on your phone through I Heart Radio. You can call in and ask questions of the world’s finest apologists and their expert guests. It’s a gold mine of information. You will not be disappointed.

 

[pablope]

Well, I’m sorry if my question is too harsh. I am just interested in apologetics. The specific topics I prefer the most are the two pillars of Reformation: Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

Why Catholicism Makes Protestantism Tick: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation | Mark Brumley… ignatiusinsight.com/features/mbrumley_bouyer1_nov04.asp

 

[Gorgias]

plasmadash:

Well, I’m sorry if my question is too harsh.

It’s not that it’s harsh, it’s just way too huge to answer.

LOL…! Exactly!

 

[BrunoMaria]

Apologetics is the art of defending the faith. To do the job well you must be well trained in persuasive argumentation and very knowledgable in sacred scripture, sacred tradition, the writings of the church fathers, and the catechism.

Well, in my decades of doing so in very many forums and in MailCircle, I never had the impression I had to “defend faith”, but rather to put faith’s facts into simple wods. (Well I can use “simple words” only anyway, because I lack the finesse of the English language

But defend? To defend something, it takes an enemy of whatever - in this case faith.
And well, I explain faith for at least 60 years (I’m an old man), but don’t defend it, for if atheists (who are mostly rather aggressive) mock about belief, let them, they will see one day for themselves. All will see Jesus Christ after their death, as we are immortal, for “death” is simply the door to God - if one likes this fact or not. Then those who rejected Jesus, will condemn themselves in the face on God. And well, I’m not at all well trained, I simply believe. I never saw any High-school but I’m a craftsman. A sculptor. But he who knocks will be opened, and he who askes will be answered.
I was ansered, and belief is the foundation of my life. So, I try to pass it on - without any real education. I simply talk faith, because I know that it’s true.

Yours
Bruno

 

[JonNC]

=Steveabrous;10979006]Sola fida is refuted in James chapter 2 :

“20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless.”

“24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.”

Perhaps, Steve, this is exactly what the OP is looking for. Here you provide a typical Catholic refutation of sola fide.
Of course, the Lutheran argument in favor of sola fide is that in no way does James refute sola fide, because in no way does James refute Paul. James, instead, confirms what Paul says in Galatians 5:6 that a saving faith is a faith that works through love.

Sola scriptura is self refuting. In order for scripture alone to be valid scripture must proclaim it and it doesn’t in fact it say "

And this is the typical Catholic refutation for sola scriptura.
The Lutheran argument for sola scriptura doesn’t include a requirement for the practice to be found in scripture, since, in part, scripture already provides teaching authority to the Church, and sola scriptura is simply the practice of the Church to hold teachings, doctrines, etc. accountable to scripture.

2nd Thes. 2:15:

“So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by*** word of mouth***(tradition) or by*** letter.***(scripture)”

And, sola scriptura does not exclude traditions or Tradition. It simple does not hold them as equal to scripture, but instead holds them accountable to scripture.

It seems to me that the best advice to the OP, or any apologist from either side, is that the only way to be able to refute what one’s opponent teaches is to actually understand, not only one’s own faith, but that of one’s opponent.

Jon

 

[BrunoMaria]

the best advice to the OP, or any apologist from either side, is that the only way to be able to refute what one’s opponent teaches is to actually understand, not only one’s own faith, but that of one’s opponent.

It takes disbelief to understand others disbelief. I couldn’t ever comprehend how on earth anybody can’t believe, for as Paul said, there is no excuse for refusing belief - in Romans 1,20.
Love however provides understanding. But not understanding the lack of belief (because then we’d have to hold a reason for this failure), but far more so understanding the persons lack of comprehension (why his brain is so twisted

What we’d have to explain to doubters, is the reason why we believe. For instance the garmony in all creation (that’s what Paul meant too). It creation would be mere evolution, then it would not be all in harmony, but in the chaos cancer provides. And further more, - if it would be all “evolution” then not nly we humans had language and creative brain, but many creatures would - ever more so these with highly developed brain like dolphins. But they are older than we, but still can’t think/speak/create etc.
So, it’s plain, that God created us in His image; belief is obvious.

Yours
Bruno

 

[BrunoMaria]

I just saw a silly mitake in my post:
I wrote:

For instance the garmony in all creation (that’s what Paul meant too)

of course it must be

For instance the Harmony in all creation (that’s what Paul meant too)

 

[bzkoss236]

Also look up “Catholic Answers to Common Objections” and the “Essential Catholic Survival Guide”

 

[Steveabrous]

Perhaps, Steve, this is exactly what the OP is looking for. Here you provide a typical Catholic refutation of sola fide.
Of course, the Lutheran argument in favor of sola fide is that in no way does James refute sola fide, because in no way does James refute Paul. James, instead, confirms what Paul says in Galatians 5:6 that a saving faith is a faith that works through love.

I think we are going to find more agreement on this subject then disagreement. The Catholic doctrine of Faith plus works and the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone are very much saying the same thing in different ways. James would go to refute the more fundamental protestants that say you just have to believe.

And this is the typical Catholic refutation for sola scriptura.
The Lutheran argument for sola scriptura doesn’t include a requirement for the practice to be found in scripture, since, in part, scripture already provides teaching authority to the Church, and sola scriptura is simply the practice of the Church to hold teachings, doctrines, etc. accountable to scripture.

To say scripture alone has all the truths of the christian faith is in it’s self as christian truth. If it is not found in scripture then scripture is lacking a truth.

And, sola scriptura does not exclude traditions or Tradition. It simple does not hold them as equal to scripture

How can Tradition, or teaching, be held accountable to scripture when the Tradition came first. As well scripture came to be through Tradition. This puts Tradition in a primary place.

but instead holds them accountable to scripture.

This would be great if there was one clear teaching from scripture, but there isn’t. Everyone comes up with their own interpretation. And the answer that everyone gives is “Well, they are interpreting it wrong. My interpretation is right.”
On the contrary. The interpretation of scripture needs to be held accountable to the Tradition (teaching) handed down from the Apostles, otherwise one will fall into error

 

[JonNC]

Hi Steve,
What’s great here is I think we are giving the OP exactly what he/she wanted.

Steveabrous;10988873]I think we are going to find more agreement on this subject then disagreement. The Catholic doctrine of Faith plus works and the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone are very much saying the same thing in different ways. James would go to refute the more fundamental protestants that say you just have to believe.

Agreed

To say scripture alone has all the truths of the christian faith is in it’s self as christian truth. If it is not found in scripture then scripture is lacking a truth.

I wouldn’t argue with this. I think John is clear that there was more than what is written, though the difficulty is in knowing what that is.

How can Tradition, or teaching, be held accountable to scripture when the Tradition came first. As well scripture came to be through Tradition. This puts Tradition in a primary place.

Good point, from a Catholic POV. Is the issue is why did the reformers turn to scripture as the final norm. Luther speaks of the contradictions of councils and popes, which I believe has its roots in the Great Schism.

This would be great if there was one clear teaching from scripture, but there isn’t. Everyone comes up with their own interpretation. And the answer that everyone gives is “Well, they are interpreting it wrong. My interpretation is right.”
On the contrary. The interpretation of scripture needs to be held accountable to the Tradition (teaching) handed down from the Apostles, otherwise one will fall into error

I agree, and will add that this is a problem with those who rely on Tradition and scripture, as well.

Jon