non-Catholic Baptism

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From the CCC
V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?
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1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 **In case of necessity, anyone, even a nonbaptized person, with the required intention, can baptizeNT **, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58
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But:
Caecilius of Bilta said: I know only one baptism in the Church, and none out of the Church. This one will be here, where there is the true hope and the certain faith. For thus it is written: One faith, one hope, one baptism; Ephesians 4:5 not among heretics, where there is no hope, and the faith is false, where all things are carried on by lying
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Primus of Misgirpa said: I decide, that every man who comes to us from heresy must be baptized. For in vain does he think that he has been baptized there, seeing that there is no baptism save the one and true baptism in the Church; because not only is God one, but the faith is one, and the Church is one, wherein stands the one baptism, and holiness, and the rest. For whatever is done without, has no effect of salvation.
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Polycarp from Adrumetum said: They who approve the baptism of heretics make void our baptism.
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Nemesianus of Thubunae said: That the baptism which heretics and schismatics bestow is not the true one, is everywhere declared in the Holy Scriptures, since their very leading men are false Christs and false prophets, as the Lord says by Solomon: He who trusts in that which is false, he feeds the winds; and the very same, moreover, follows the flight of birds. For he forsakes the ways of his own vineyard, he has wandered from the paths of his own little field. But he walks through pathless places, and dry, and a land destined for thirst; moreover, he gathers together fruitless things in his hands. And again: Abstain from strange water, and from the fountain of another do not drink, that you may live a long time; also that the years of life may be added to you.Proverbs 9:19 And in the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with His divine voice, saying, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.John 3:5 This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit. Certain people therefore interpret for themselves ill, when they say that by imposition of the hand they receive the Holy Ghost, and are thus received, when it is manifest that they ought to be born again in the Catholic Church by both sacraments. Then indeed they will be able to be sons of God, as says the apostle: Taking care to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, as you have been called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God. Ephesians 4:3-6 All these things speaks the Catholic Church. And again, in the Gospel the Lord says: That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit; because God is a Spirit, and he is born of God.John 3:6 Therefore, whatsoever things all heretics and schismatics do are carnal, as the apostle says: For the works of the flesh are manifest, which are, fornications, uncleannesses, incest, idolatries, witchcrafts, hatreds, contentions, jealousy, anger, divisions, heresies, and the like to these; concerning which have told you before, as I also foretell you now, that whoever do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.Galatians 5:19-21 And thus the apostle condemns, with all the wicked, those also who cause division, that is, schismatics and heretics. Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.
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Privatus of Sufes said:** He who approves the baptism of heretics, what else does he do than communicate with heretics?/**QUOTE]
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Hortensianus of Lares said: Let either these presumptuous ones, or those who favour heretics, consider how many baptisms there are.** We claim for the Church one baptism, which we know not except in the Church.**
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Or how can they baptize any one in the name of Christ, whom Christ Himself declares to be His adversaries?

Cassius of Macomadae said: Since there cannot be two baptisms, he who yields baptism to the heretics takes it away from himself.

source:
newadvent.org/fathers/0508.htm

So, why do we accept even the baptism of non-Christians?

I think it has gone that far that we now recognize the baptism of all Christian denominations, although these are all schismatics.

Why?

:confused:
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The only valid baptisms are those in the Catholic Church. But I think this is the key: those who are baptized as Lutherans or Methodists, for example, were actually baptized in the Catholic Church, although in an imperfect form of the Church. Check out the document “Dominus Iesus” from the Vatican.
 
surritter said:
The only valid baptisms are those in the Catholic Church. But I think this is the key: those who are baptized as Lutherans or Methodists, for example, were actually baptized in the Catholic Church, although in an imperfect form of the Church. Check out the document “Dominus Iesus” from the Vatican.
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I have read Dominus Iesus, but the thing is: these groups are all schismatics and not in union with Rome. They are born of heresies.
Whether the current Lutherans or Methodists or Protestants are still heretics or not is kinda irrelevant: if they wish not to remain in error, they ought to come back.
 
Two other thoughts: The folks you quote above were not necessarily speaking as infallible teaching of the Church. So don’t fret too much.

Second, as these quotes are ancient, remember that they were dealing with serious heretical sects that may not have intended to baptize as the Church intended. (It might be akin to Mormons today; even though they have baptism, it is not valid in the eyes of the Church).

So be sure to take into account the time period and the heresies that were around at the time.
 
Holly3278 said:
Since when do non-Christians practice baptism? 🤷:confused:
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Whether they do it or not is not really relevant: but we seem to concede that there can be another baptism than that of the Church: which I dislike.

So why is this even in the CCC?

And why does it say “the Latin Church”? It’s like the Catholic Church being one amongst a couple others…
 
Shlomey said:
I have read Dominue Iesus, but the thing is: these groups are all schismatics and not in union with Rome. They are born of heresies.
Whether the current Lutherans or Methodists or Protestants are still heretics or not is kinda irrelevant: if they wish not to remain in error, they ought to come back.
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Yes, that is true, but they are doing as Christ commanded, even though they may be personally culpable as heretics. (Recall that even in our Catholic parishes, the worthiness of the priest has no effect on the validity of the sacraments.) So a Lutheran baptism is still a Catholic one, if that makes sense.
 
surritter said:
Two other thoughts: The folks you quote above were not necessarily speaking as infallible teaching of the Church. So don’t fret too much.

Second, as these quotes are ancient, remember that they were dealing with serious heretical sects that may not have intended to baptize as the Church intended. (It might be akin to Mormons today; even though they have baptism, it is not valid in the eyes of the Church).

So be sure to take into account the time period and the heresies that were around at the time.
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Okay, will try to do that.

Does not the unanimous belief of the Christians somewhat make a matter of faith/morals infallible?
 
You misundestand the Church teaching regarding the minister of baptism. Baptism is necessary for salvation, therefore in an emergency anyone can baptize. But, they are giving a Catholic baptism.

For example, a Catholic woman is in labor and the baby is born in distress and in danger of death. There is no priest available. The only person in the room is a nurse who is a Hindu (unbaptized). The mother says, “baptize my baby” and so the nurse gets water and performs the baptism using the correct form and matter. Therefore, the child is baptized **Catholic **by someone who is **not **a Catholic. That is what Canon Law is providing for, and what the Catechism references in that paragraph.

The paragraph is not proclaiming that a non-Christian baptism into their **own **sect is valid-- i.e. Mormon baptism. It is not saying that, and the Church does not teach that. In fact, the Church teaches Mormon baptism is invalid because it is not Trinitarian.
 
Regarding rebaptism, that debate was decided at the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381

See especially Canon 5 which discusses which heretics can be received into the Church with chrismation only and which require baptism because their original baptism was invalid (non Trinitarian).

The Catholic position is that we can receive baptism only once and that heretics baptize validly if they use correct form, matter, and intent to baptize into the Trinity.

That is why the Creed states “we acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”
 
1ke said:
Regarding rebaptism, that debate was decided at the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381

See especially Canon 5 which discusses which heretics can be received into the Church with chrismation only and which require baptism because their original baptism was invalid (non Trinitarian).

The Catholic position is that we can receive baptism only once and that heretics baptize validly if they use correct form, matter, and intent to baptize into the Trinity.

That is why the Creed states “we acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”
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That was very informative.

Thanks a lot for your posts 👍
 
In fact, I’m pretty sure that the church will recognize any baptism " In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Once you are baptized in this fashion, you have sanctifying grace and will be given eternal life, unless you fall from that state through sin.

This is a fully Catholic baptism, whether administered by a Catholic priest or not.

Now, not all “Christian” sects baptize in this way. For instance, the Mormon’s don’t believe in the trinity, so a Mormon baptism would not be valid and would have to be redone by someone entering into the Catholic Church. On the other hand, the Episcopalians, believing in the trinity in the same way we do, use the Catholic formula, which is valid…

Please note, that although you can be validly baptized by some Protestant groups, there are still significant advantages to being Catholic. The two biggest are:
Having the full deposit of faith to guide us in following God’s will so that we can stay in the state of Grace and be saved.
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Having the sacrament of reconciliation, by which we can be reunited with God in repentence, should we lose our sanctification through sin.
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The other Christian churches don’t offer this, much to the detriment of their members.
 
Shlomey said:
So why is this even in the CCC?
And why does it say “the Latin Church”? It’s like the Catholic Church being one amongst a couple others…
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I don’t think anyone answered you on this yet. It says “the Latin Church” because the Latin Church allows Bishops, Priests and Deacons to ordinarily baptize and everyone else to only baptise in emergencies. In the Eastern Rites, only the priest is the ordinary minister and the Deacon may only baptize in emergencies. Look at where the comma is placed in that sentence - “the Latin Church” is referring to the ability of the Deacon to be the ordinary minister of baptism.

If it is still unclear, take a look at the two canons:
CIC 861.1 for the Latin
CCEO 677.1 for the Eastern
 
Shlomey said:
Whether they do it or not is not really relevant: but we seem to concede that there can be another baptism than that of the Church: which I dislike.

So why is this even in the CCC?

And why does it say “the Latin Church”? It’s like the Catholic Church being one amongst a couple others…
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Hi Shlomey,

The reference there to “the Latin Church” is necessary since other Catholic Churches do not consider a deacon to be an ordinary minister of baptism. All the Eastern Catholic Churches ordinarily administer the Eucharist and what we call Confirmation at the time of baptism, even for infants. So, since a deacon can’t confirm anyone, the deacon is not an ordinary minister of baptism in those other Churches.

I beleive there are 23 Churches in the Catholic Church. The Latin (meaning “Western”) Church is one among many.

Hope that makes sense.

Dan
 
Originally Posted by Holly3278
Since when do **non-Christians **practice baptism?
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Mystic_Warrior said:
Since when do they not? From Luther down to the present day there is baptism in the Protestant churches. Infant baptisms in the Lutheran and Anglican churches and adult baptisms in the others, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

EDIT: I found this in the AAA forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11286
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The issue is that it says **non-Christian **and Lutherans and Anglicans are clearly Christians. I think you are reading it as NON-CATHOLICS
 
paul_c said:
The issue is that it says **non-Christian **and Lutherans and Anglicans are clearly Christians. I think you are reading it as NON-CATHOLICS
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the title of the thread is “non-Catholic Baptism”. That’s why I replied the way I did. I guess either Holly misunderstood or I did. If me, then I apologize.
 
Mystic_Warrior said:
Since when do they not? From Luther down to the present day there is baptism in the Protestant churches. Infant baptisms in the Lutheran and Anglican churches and adult baptisms in the others, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

EDIT: I found this in the AAA forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11286
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Protestant churches are Christians. Before baptism we are all non-Christian. So we can say that non-Christians are baptised into the Christian faith.
 
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