F
fbl9
Guest
with such love filled words you should well remember your last line
- Status
J
judechild
Guest
You must be God then, because anytime we disagree with you we’re apparently contridicting God’s Word.
What we base our theology on is the Word of God which is expressed in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition; I think St. Basil the Great (330-379) discribes this practice well:
“The Church preserves many beliefs and practices that are generally accepted or publicly commanded. Some are taken from written teaching; others have been passed on to us “in a mystery” by the tradition of the apostles. In relation to true religion, both of these have the same force. These no one will deny - no one, in any case, who is even moderately informed about the institutions of the Church. For if we were to try to reject any customs that have no written authority, on the ground that they are relatively unimportant, we would unintentionally injure the Gospel in its very vitals” (taken from Living the Mysteries by Hahn and Aquilina, 37-38; On the Holy Spirit, St. Basil the Great)
I look at the protestant tradition and I (and many like me) see an injured gospel, because Protestants have done the very thing St. Basil warned against. I don’t mean any disrespect, but that’s probably why non believers are so confused and don’t want to become Christians - Christians seem just as confused and arbitrary as the unbelievers are.
Y
YADA
Guest
Please read more closely
… I specified the New Testament Cannon as the writings of the Christian Church … and from the begging four Gospels to the Book of revelation … it is exactly that … a Christian collection of writings … those writings constitute the cannon of the Chruch … it is her “book” to which the Hebrew Writings are attached because we [Christians] have [and share with] in the Hebrew people our faith and salvation in the One True God … 
A
always_gr8ful
Guest
Did you read the post I was responding to with scripture, or do you just feel the need to put this Christian in her place? (rhetorical question)
C
CWBetts
Guest
Too bad that can’t be backed up with Scripture. There is always a chance of falling.
Sounds kind of judgemental to me, but I take your word for it. We use the word of God, too.
Jon
G
guanophore
Guest
He did, Parker. The fact that you reject what He said does not “undo” that he said it.
Yes. Baptism is the manner in which we access that covering.
That was me, writing that the Apostles baptized infants. This is reflected in the NT, and especially in the writings of the early Christians. Even Pagan sources testify to this, faulting Catholics as bizarre because “they drown their infants”.
What you are suggesting here, that infants are born without the stain of original sin, is contrary to what the Apostles taught.
C
CWBetts
Guest
What about this one: “You believe God is one; you do well even the demons believe–and shudder.” simple belief is not enough
G
guanophore
Guest
No, always, we are not “above the Word of God”. It is simply a matter of history. IT is not about pride or arrogance, it is about the facts. The facts are that all early Christians were Catholics, (until heretics emerged, which was early). Those Catholics wrote, preserved canonized and promulgated the Scritpture. When this was done, the word of God that was active and alive in the Church did not “cease” to be.
Neither is wrong, what is wrong is your interpretation of the “dozen scriptures” to which you add the word “alone”.
You make an error assuming that the Word of God is confined to the Sacred Scriptures.
God does not contradict Himself . His Word, both inside and outside of Scripture has perfect consistency. If you think that there is a contradiction, then you don’t understand one, the other, or both. Based upon you posts here, I would say it is the latter.
The Word of God alive and active in the Church came before the Bible. That Word of God, present in the Apostles’ teaching, is what produced the NT. The Catholic Church, under the guidance of the HS, assembled the NT, identified the Sacred Books from the OT, and bound them together, producing what is today called the “Bible”. This did not occur until the fourth century. So, what do you suppose they did for four hundred years?
If the Catholic Church did not produce a valid Bible,then you have no reason to believe any of it.
Jesus did not leave a book (however sacred) in charge of the Church. He authorized His Apostles to govern the Church. Scripture is useful for this activity. If you want to discuss this, though you should open a new thread, because it is off topic here.
As far as worrying about the salvation of Catholics, becuase we have received and follow the Apostolic Teaching, and not the New Gospel of the Reformation, this in itself is a statement of faithlessness in God. Worry is a lack of faith and trust in the almighty. What you are saying is that God’s arm is too short to save Catholics.
Y
YADA
Guest
This is considered moving the bar … You started with this request a scripture passage of Guanophore …
Followed by this
Now two passages that clearly indictate that baptism is for the remission of sins [not the cause **in and of itself but because it is commaned by Jesus, taught by the apostles and the process by which we become united to Christ] … you want to discount it because it is only 2 [though more passages refer to baptismal regeneration either explicitely or implicitely] … and you accuse Catholics of 'picking and choosing"
Like your ignoring my reference to the New Testament being a product of the Church … and making it seem like I meant the OT as well :tsktsk:
A
always_gr8ful
Guest
That’s a broad and sweeping statement that doesn’t hold to truth. I’m asking questions, I’m posting God’s Word, and as a non-Catholic, I’m giving my opinion of infant baptism asked by the original poster.
I’ve been of the opinion that non-believers are so confused because Christians are so confused. I KNOW that many of any faith don’t study the Bible, so of course they are confused. I learned here that there is more Word given in Mass then any other faith, yet some members are woefully ignorant as to what the scriptures say because they don’t read them themselves. If they want a question answered, those I’m speaking of go to a website and click on the question and are given lines of scripture that may sound right, but in context, may have nothing to do with their question!
Meanwhile, I appreciate you finding that to show me, but it doesn’t answer my question of overriding authority in the case of contradiction - the Bible or outside teachings?
A
always_gr8ful
Guest
Can demons be saved through Christ? Did Christ die for demons too?
I say no, but would like to hear your answer because I’m interested in what Catholics believe.
Off the top of my head (since I’ve never thought about demon salvation) “It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment.”
A
always_gr8ful
Guest
The Word of God strongly teaches otherwise.
Y
YADA
Guest
Alawys_gr8ful,
The New Testament Scriptures [a collection of writings really including some letters] is a result of [work of] the Church …
God did not send the “Bible” down from heaven bond in leather and witht he words of Jesus in red … Jesus never commanded any of the Apostles to write … in point of fact, Jesus told them to *GO AND PREACH the GOOD NEWS OF SALVATION … [that is what *GOSPEL means]
As time progressed - and the community grew and spread - it became evident that the core beliefs of the Church [which Jesus founded is is comprised of the community of believers - Christians] should be written down. The ressult is what we refer to as the “Bible” … the Bible flows from the Traditions that were handed down by the Apostles … the Church existed long before the first tip hit papyrus or quill hit parchment …
It is the Church that declered the NT scriptures to be “innerrent and inspired” … rejecting other writings for inclusion … it is the Church that gives us the listing of books not the Book that gives us the Church …
And who gave us the Church … Jesus did when he built his church upon Peter and gave him the Keys … with the promise that Satan would not prevail against the Church
A
always_gr8ful
Guest
As I said to judechild, “I’m asking questions, I’m posting God’s Word, and as a non-Catholic, I’m giving my opinion of infant baptism asked by the original poster.” I’m sorry that my quest to understand your faith outside the Bible sounds kind of judgmental to you. Relax in my word that I’m not here to judge.
G
guanophore
Guest
Actually, being a “Bible believer” is nothing simple. IT requires that an individual subsrcibe to an extrabiblical doctrine as the main basis for one’s guidance.
I agree. If there is a Word from God, it will not contradict what He has already revealed in HIs Sacred Scripture.
No, but feel free. Please do use a new thread, though, because it is off topic here, unless it relates to the fact that the Apostles taught infant baptism.
The Bible is not capable of wielding “authority”. This is a characteristic of person, not books. Authority requires the ability to discern to decide, to take responsibility, and to act. Scripture, though Holy, was not left in authority over the Church. The Apostles were given this duty.
The reason the scriptures are authoritative, however is because the authority Jesus appointed has declared them so.
A
always_gr8ful
Guest
but because it is commaned by Jesus, taught by the apostles and the process by which we become united to Christ] … you want to discount it because it is only 2 [though more passages refer to baptismal regeneration either explicitely or implicitely] … and you accuse Catholics of 'picking and choosing"
I’m not moving the bar - you are. My question again:
*“Guanophore, would you please post the scripture where any Apostles taught that baptism washes away all sins?” *
If you believe baptism is for the remission of sins based on that scripture of Paul explaining how we died with Christ, then that scripture contradicts all other scripture that our sins are forgiven though Christ alone.
“tsk tsk” back at cha for having such ill feelings about a stranger. I never considered the OT when I posted - only that Jesus was a Jew as well as the Apostles.
(Remembering to put your words in quotes so hopefully I won’t be judged as unloving again)
C
CWBetts
Guest
Explain the parable of the sower. Who are the hearers of the word that fall away?
G
guanophore
Guest
No, the Apostles taught that there was only One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. It is inappropriate and disobedient to rebaptize.
Baptized children make a variety of professions of faiththrough out their lifetimes. At least once a year Catholics re-affirm our baptismal vows during the Easter season.
This is like asking if a Jewish boy grew up and continued in his faith from the time of his circumcision, if he would be “circumcised again”. The Apostles understood that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom.
Not a bit! Since “bible christians” are separated from the Apostolic teaching, all they can do is go on the small portion of revelation they have retained, most of which is in Scripture. IT is very easy to misunderstand scripture when it is taken out of context.
However, the reason there are so many examples in the book of Acts about “believe and be baptized” is because it is a record of the early establishment of the church. At the time, the primary audience was adults, and this is the proper order for adults. It would not be in the NT if it were not a Catholic Teaching, because there is nothing in there that is not Catholic.
No, becuase Catholics are Bible Belieiving Christians, and we reason that the scripture is inerrant. Therefore, it is your understanding of scripture, and/or Church teaching that is lacking, not the Scriptures, or the Teachings of the Apostles.
Sorry, always, but even the scriptures are quite clear that baptism is not "symbolic’. It effects what it signifies. We are born again, of water and Spirit. I agree with you, though, it is contigent upon faith. The Catholic Church does not baptize without faith.
No, most of those who are separated from the Apostolic Teaching believe this way, and hear satan laughing. He has succeeded in propogating a great deal of error since the believers departed from the authority appointed by Christ.
- Status