non-catholic christian language: definitions needed

[OneAugustKnight]

I have noticed a few things my non-Catholic friends have been saying don’t make any sense to me. Could I get a few definitions?

1. Spirit of conviction/ being convicted by God. Need a definition, and I am interested in hearing if this is from somewhere in the Bible, or where it comes from if not.
2. Generic prayer. What makes a prayer generic? Can I have some examples of generic prayers?
3. Getting a word. What is that?
4. Man-made religion. I think they mean something different than what I understand.

If I run into other vocabulary questions I’ll post those later. Thanks!

 

[Just_Lurking]

1. Man-made religion. I think they mean something different than what I understand.

This often refers to the inclusion of extra-biblical beliefs in religious dogma. God only wrote the Bible, so everything else outside the Bible is therefore man-made.

 

[stephe1987]

#1 I’m not sure what this is. When I did a Google search, I found this:
John 16:8 (NEB) “When he [the Holy Spirit] comes, he will convict the world, and show where right and wrong and judgment lie. He will convict them of wrong…”
Maybe they believe Catholics will be convicted of doing something wrong by following the Church that Jesus established? I don’t understand…

I think #2 refers to the rosary. Many protestants believe we should not say the same prayer over and over again, and those prayers become “generic”.

The Our Father is prayed on the solitary beads that separate the groups of ten beads (the “decades”). Every Christian is familiar with this prayer, which is found in Matthew 6:9-13. Significantly, it is given in the same passage of Scripture in which Jesus says, “But when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words” (Matt. 6:7). This is the verse Jimmy Swaggart says condemns the “pagan practice” of “counting prayers.” Though Jesus himself gave us the Our Father, some Fundamentalists try to discourage Christians from using it as anything other than a model prayer because they feel that actually praying it would constitute a “vain repetition.”

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea3.asp

What Jesus was talking about wasn’t the repetitions in organized prayers like the rosary, but the fact that many pagans believed that the more words you used in a prayer, the higher the chance was that your prayers would be answered. They would babble on for hours using meaningless words to try to achieve their purposes.

#3 For this one, I’m also not sure what is meant. But a Google search found something about oral tradition. I think this argument is actually in favor of Catholics. Not everything was written down, and some traditions were oral rather than written, which is why not everything Catholics believe is in the Bible. Around the time of the Protestant Reformation, Bibles became more widespread because of the printing press. Many people were already upset with the church for various reasons (I heard something about them selling indulgences to rich people?) and so they looked for a reason to leave. When they saw that not everything taught by the Church was in the Bible, they accused the Church of apostasy and left to make their own churches.

#4 Refers to the sacraments and the sacred tradition that Catholics follow.

 

[Moscati]

#3 doesn’t have much to do with oral tradition, in my experience. My fiance’s grandfather and mom (they’re Pentacostal-ish) sometimes say that they “have a word” for him. What it usually means is that they were reading their Bibles or listening to a sermon, and a particular passage of Scripture sort of “jumped” out at them, and made them think of him, so they take that to mean God wants them to share it. I think attributing it to God is a bit odd, but they mean well.

Funny how the “word” from God always has to do with something they’ve been nagging him about.

My Baptist grandma does the same thing (sends me letters full of Scripture), but she takes all the credit for the inspiration.

 

[Church_Militant]

I have noticed a few things my non-Catholic friends have been saying don’t make any sense to me. Could I get a few definitions?

1. Spirit of conviction/ being convicted by God. Need a definition, and I am interested in hearing if this is from somewhere in the Bible, or where it comes from if not.

Yes, this is found in the New Testament in Acts 2:36-47 and it basically means that they believe that God will sort confirm in people’s hearts the truth of what they have been told. In the case of the apostles in Acts 2, it is certain. In the case of errant reformation and post reformation doctrines…not so much.

1. Generic prayer. What makes a prayer generic? Can I have some examples of generic prayers?

That’s a new one on me. I think they mean they prefer ad lib prayers to some of the more traditional prayers that we make use of. Most likely they mean just praying in one’s own words.

1. Getting a word. What is that?

Oh boy… you’re talking with Pentecostal/Charismatic types then. When they speak of “getting a word” they mean that they are supposedly getting a message from God by the Holy Spirit. I have a post where I discuss what the New Testament actually says about tongues and all this. Here’s the link. Re: Assemblies of God?

1. Man-made religion. I think they mean something different than what I understand.

This is a fairly common slur that is frequently cast upon us as Catholics and it essentially says that we are members of a man made, not Christ founded religion because we don’t agree with what they believe and teach. Many, (not all) choose to believe that their particular faith community is/was invented under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic counter is that if that were the case then according to the New Testament, (1st Corinthians 14:33) all the break away denominations of Christianity (and there are tens of thousands) would all hold the same doctrines. Yet they do not.

If I run into other vocabulary questions I’ll post those later. Thanks!

Not a problem my friend. All those years away from our most holy faith won’t have been a complete waste I guess. (Thanks be to God!)

 

[Bob_Crowley]

1. Spirit of conviction/ being convicted by God. Need a definition, and I am interested in hearing if this is from somewhere in the Bible, or where it comes from if not.

A hand appears and and writes an infringement notice on your wall. Regulatory offences are itemised in categories from 1 to 10, with sub-sections.

1. Generic prayer. What makes a prayer generic? Can I have some examples of generic prayers?

Basically anything that doesn’t have an official name eg. Hail Mary, Queen of Heaven, Rosary. Sole exception is the Lord’s Prayer, which is a generic modification of the “Our
Father”.

1. Getting a word.

While the pastor’s back was turned, someone else got hold of the microphone.

1. Man-made religion.

They mean the Catholic Church. Up until around 1500 all the Bibles were man-made ie. printed by hand. But now we’ve got the printing press, they’re all divinely inspired.

If I run into other vocabulary questions I’ll post those later. Thanks!

Glad to help.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

Thank you for the great answers. I am still confused about some of these things because they said praying from Scripture is best, but that the Rosary and Our Father are generic prayers. And that the Spirit of conviction is kind of like what a secular person would call their conscience.

Anyways I have a few more:

1. Essential doctrine
2. “Claiming the promises”

As for the man-made religion thing, whenever they say they don’t believe in man-made religion I say neither do I, that’s why I am Catholic, because Jesus made my religion. So they keep saying it, but they are throwing another one at me.

1. Organized religion. They don’t believe in “organized religion.” Are they trying to say disorganized religion is superior? Isn’t that just where you get to do whatever you want?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thank you for the great answers. I am still confused about some of these things because they said praying from Scripture is best, but that the Rosary and Our Father are generic prayers.

Sounds like somebody is confused, since the Rosary and the Our Father come straight out of Scripture!

1. Essential doctrine

From an evangelical Protestant standpoint, this can be translated as “This is what’s important to me.” It can vary from one Protestant to another. It is based on a false belief that certain aspects of the Christian faith are more important and belief-worthy than others. They’ll say, “We can disagree with each other about some things, as long as we agree on the essentials!” Yet Scripture never tells us what those essentials are. They may give you a list of their own personal essential doctrines, but that’s just their opinion.

1. “Claiming the promises”

Testing God by throwing His Words back at Him. “Lord, You said in Your Word that ________, and I claim that promise right now!”

As for the man-made religion thing, whenever they say they don’t believe in man-made religion I say neither do I, that’s why I am Catholic, because Jesus made my religion. So they keep saying it, but they are throwing another one at me.

Good answer!

1. Organized religion. They don’t believe in “organized religion.” Are they trying to say disorganized religion is superior? Isn’t that just where you get to do whatever you want?

This simply means they have issues with authority.

 

[Soldier_X]

Anyways I have a few more:

1. Essential doctrine

This is something that must be believed in order to be a “real” Christian or an “orthodox” Christian. The essentials are just a handful of basic doctrines such as the Virgin Birth, the Bodily Resurrection of Christ, the need for forgiveness of sins, and so forth. I think that this idea was really spread by John Wesley, and now it is central to Evangelicalism (“We disagree with denomination X on secondary and tertiary doctrines, but since we agree on the essentials, they’re saved too”).

But who decides the essentials?

1. “Claiming the promises”

This may be a Pentecostal/Charismatic thing. I’ve heard a couple televangelists hold up their Bibles and say, “All the promises in this book apply to you!” This includes the blessings of Abraham, the promises to Solomon, and so forth. So we must audibly “claim” these promises in order to get all the cool stuff that God promised to other people.

1. Organized religion. They don’t believe in “organized religion.” Are they trying to say disorganized religion is superior? Isn’t that just where you get to do whatever you want?

Yes. HOW DARE YOU imply that any man-made religious figure has any authority or credibility whatsoever! I don’t care what your man-made religious institutions say. Besides, it’s not a religion; it’s a relationship! I just follow Jesus, not the Pharisaical rules of men! Constantine made up all those rules anyway. /sarcasm

 

[OneAugustKnight]

This is something that must be believed in order to be a “real” Christian or an “orthodox” Christian. The essentials are just a handful of basic doctrines such as the Virgin Birth, the Bodily Resurrection of Christ, the need for forgiveness of sins, and so forth. I think that this idea was really spread by John Wesley, and now it is central to Evangelicalism (“We disagree with denomination X on secondary and tertiary doctrines, but since we agree on the essentials, they’re saved too”).

But who decides the essentials?

This may be a Pentecostal/Charismatic thing. I’ve heard a couple televangelists hold up their Bibles and say, “All the promises in this book apply to you!” This includes the blessings of Abraham, the promises to Solomon, and so forth. So we must audibly “claim” these promises in order to get all the cool stuff that God promised to other people.

Yes. HOW DARE YOU imply that any man-made religious figure has any authority or credibility whatsoever! I don’t care what your man-made religious institutions say. Besides, it’s not a religion; it’s a relationship! I just follow Jesus, not the Pharisaical rules of men! Constantine made up all those rules anyway. /sarcasm

Thanks for the list on essential doctrine. I was beginning to think Essential Doctrine meant liking Jesus and the Bible and insulting Catholics, because I haven’t been able to nail down much of what they really believe. Do they think Catholics agree with them on the essentials?

They call themselves “Christians” and I thought that meant Catholic, or at least something very similar, but I guess not. They say they are Evangelicals or Non-denominationals, but that is completely meaningless to me.

Which leads me to

1. Evangelicals. ?

ETA, it seems like it will be difficult to discuss religion with these people if they are making subtle insults to my Faith. Maybe I’m coming across wrong and I offended them. I don’t know.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thanks for the list on essential doctrine. I was beginning to think Essential Doctrine meant liking Jesus and the Bible and insulting Catholics, because I haven’t been able to nail down much of what they really believe. Do they think Catholics agree with them on the essentials?

Any Christian doctrine that all Protestants agree with one another on is also a teaching of the Catholic faith…except their belief that Catholics are wrong.

1. Evangelicals. ?

From Wiki:

Evangelicalism is a Protestant Christian theological stream which began in Great Britain in the 1730s. Most adherents consider its key characteristics to be:

* A belief in the need for personal conversion (or being "born again")
* Some expression of the gospel in "effort"
* A high regard for biblical authority
* An emphasis on teachings that proclaim the death and resurrection of Jesus.

That said, one can be an evangelical Catholic - quite a few posters here at CAF are very evangelical, but they’re certainly not Evangelicals. The difference is similar to saying “little c” catholic vs Catholic. All baptized believers are catholic, but not all of them are Catholic. Yet.

 

[Soldier_X]

Any Christian doctrine that all Protestants agree with one another on is also a teaching of the Catholic faith…except their belief that Catholics are wrong.

From Wiki:

Evangelicalism is a Protestant Christian theological stream which began in Great Britain in the 1730s. Most adherents consider its key characteristics to be:

* A belief in the need for personal conversion (or being "born again")
* Some expression of the gospel in "effort"
* A high regard for biblical authority
* An emphasis on teachings that proclaim the death and resurrection of Jesus.

That said, one can be an evangelical Catholic - quite a few posters here at CAF are very evangelical, but they’re certainly not Evangelicals. The difference is similar to saying “little c” catholic vs Catholic. All baptized believers are catholic, but not all of them are Catholic. Yet.

Good stuff! And I promise I wasn’t trying to rip off your post above my last one; we were writing at the same time.

 

[Soldier_X]

Do they think Catholics agree with them on the essentials?

Not usually. You’ll get all sorts of different answers on this one. In general, they’ll say: “If individual Catholics have a personal relationship with Jesus as their personal savior, they’re Christians.” That is the biggest of the essentials. Other than that, they often think that Catholics differ with them on most essentials (like Sola Scriptura, Mary and the Saints, the nature and leadership of the Church, and assurance of salvation).

They call themselves “Christians” and I thought that meant Catholic, or at least something very similar, but I guess not. They say they are Evangelicals or Non-denominationals, but that is completely meaningless to me.

Not much I can add to the Evangelical definition above. Evangelicalism has become sort of a contemporary replacement for early 20th century fundamentalism. It opposes Liberal Protestantism. Non-denominationalism isn’t something I fully understand, but it seems to be an attempt at rejecting what authority does exist in Protestant churches. It probably grows out of American individualist tendencies, rejection of “liberal” leadership, and a desire to be “the church of Acts,” which wasn’t in a Protestant denomination.

Can I use many more “isms” and get away with it? Sorry about that.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Good stuff!

Thanks.

And I promise I wasn’t trying to rip off your post above my last one; we were writing at the same time.

Yes, we were. The question you put forth - Who decides the essentials? - was a troubling question for my Baptist self, once upon a time. I tripped over that question and fell face-first into the Tiber. :dancing:

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Non-denominationalism isn’t something I fully understand, but it seems to be an attempt at rejecting what authority does exist in Protestant churches. It probably grows out of American individualist tendencies, rejection of “liberal” leadership, and a desire to be “the church of Acts,” which wasn’t in a Protestant denomination.

I heard someone say (and I really wish I could remember who it was) that if you really want to be a New Testament Church, the first thing you need to do is quit reading the New Testament, 'cause they didn’t have it.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

Okay got another one.

1. Baptism of dedication and Baptism of salvation

ETA

1. “Caught the Holy Ghost.”

 

[Soldier_X]

Ok those two have stumped me.

 

[Izdaari]

FWIW, I don’t hear any of those words or phrases at my Assemblies of God church… except for Evangelical, we do claim to be that.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Okay got another one.

1. Baptism of dedication and Baptism of salvation

I think what they mean by ‘‘Baptism of dedication’’ is infant baptism, whereby the child is dedicated to God, until such time as they are old enough to choose baptism of salvation, the real baptism in their eyes.

Just a guess though.

 

[Zooey]

Could I get a few definitions?

1. Spirit of conviction/ being convicted by God.
2. Generic prayer. What makes a prayer generic? Can I have some examples of generic prayers?
3. Getting a word. What is that?
4. Man-made religion. I think they mean something different than what I understand.

1. Convictions-- Belief that God is asking you to do something, such as quit drinking alcohol, or begin wearing more modest clothing. I have a cousin who feels “convicted” to always wear a head covering in church. Its a personal thing, & she doesn’t think I am horrible for not doing the same thing.
2. The prayers in a prayer book; the rosary. Litanies usually send their blood pressure really thru the ceiling.
   3.Ack. This is “God told me to tell you that He wants you to never wear a necktie again”… (Actually knew a man who believed this). Anything that begins “God told me to tell you that[fill in the blank]”.

1. Essential doctrine
2. “Claiming the promises”
3. Organized religion. They don’t believe in “organized religion.” Are they trying to say disorganized religion is superior?

1. Something you have to believe in order to be saved. Example: Christ’s deity. (As opposed to nonessentials, like how much water you need to be baptized).
2. Finding Bible verse that sounds like something you want, & then trying to get God to make it happen, “because You promised in [insert Bible verse]”.
   My cousin’s church has a little song:
   “Every promise in the Book is mine;
   Every chapter, every verse, every line;
   Now my sins are all forgiven, & I’m on my way to Heaven;
   Every promise in the Book is mine”.
3. A lot of people will just say “religion”. As, " You don’t need religion, you need God". Religion meaning, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox. Gos meaning, their personal interpretation of the Bible. (You & I are all wrong; we should just say “Christian” & nothing more.

Thanks for the list on essential doctrine. Do they think Catholics agree with them on the essentials?

No. Probably don’t think I do, either, or I would “leave Methodism for Christianity”. Someone actually told a former pastor of mine this.

They call themselves “Christians” and I thought that meant Catholic, or at least something very similar, but I guess not. They say they are Evangelicals or Non-denominationals, but that is completely meaningless to me.
Which leads me to
8. Evangelicals. ?

Having any name for yourself beyond Christian is “religion”.
8. Evangelicals: Place emphasis on having a deep spiritual life & devotion to Christ.
A prominent Protestant evangelical is Billy Graham. Catholic examples are Bishop Sheen or Father Corapi.
I told an elderly relative about St Teresa of Avila’s experience that she called her “second conversion”. She was no end of impressed & thought I had made a point until she asked me, “How long was it before the Catholics killed her?”

1. Baptism of dedication and Baptism of salvation
2. “Caught the Holy Ghost.”

1. Dedication is infant baptism, but without any water. (I:shrug: know, but that is as close as I can describe it). Found in circles where folk are baptized only after they have a conversion experience.
   Baptism of salvation is, when you are baptized (or re-baptized) after “accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour”.
2. It sounds like pentecostal-speak for beginning to speak in tongues. Honestly, its not a phrase I am that familiar with. “Baptized with the Holy Ghost” is as close as I am sure of.

HTH.

PS: When I typed the song lyric, I made the same typo both times: I spelled “book” as “boob”. This probably means that I am in deep, deep doo-doo…