Non-Catholic Christianity and the understanding of Church

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I have always wondered how non-Catholic Christianity understands the term Church? Scripture defines the Church as the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’. (I Tim 3:15) What is more confusing is that each denomination claims to have the truth of the gospel as that particular denomination deems correct based on their interpretation of scripture. So, if a non-Christian were looking for a Church that preaches the truth and absolute truth of the gospel, who should they turn to in the Protestant world? The Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Seventh-day Adventists…I could go on, but I think my point is clear. Most non-Catholics on this forum can come together and agree on what is wrong with the Catholic Church but seem to ignore that ‘plank’ in their own eye which is the numerous sects all claiming truth and yet not agreeing on what that truth should be. It all just seems a bit unbiblical to me.
 
I have always wondered how non-Catholic Christianity understands the term Church? Scripture defines the Church as the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’. (I Tim 3:15) What is more confusing is that each denomination claims to have the truth of the gospel as that particular denomination deems correct based on their interpretation of scripture. So, if a non-Christian were looking for a Church that preaches the truth and absolute truth of the gospel, who should they turn to in the Protestant world? The Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Seventh-day Adventists…I could go on, but I think my point is clear. Most non-Catholics on this forum can come together and agree on what is wrong with the Catholic Church but seem to ignore that ‘plank’ in their own eye which is the numerous sects all claiming truth and yet not agreeing on what that truth should be. It all just seems a bit unbiblical to me.
Most Protestants would say that the Church is the body of believers throughout the world and is not to be identified with any one denomination. Eastern Orthodox, of course, have a different view.

Edwin
 
I have always wondered how non-Catholic Christianity understands the term Church? Scripture defines the Church as the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’. (I Tim 3:15) What is more confusing is that each denomination claims to have the truth of the gospel as that particular denomination deems correct based on their interpretation of scripture. So, if a non-Christian were looking for a Church that preaches the truth and absolute truth of the gospel, who should they turn to in the Protestant world? The Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Seventh-day Adventists…I could go on, but I think my point is clear. Most non-Catholics on this forum can come together and agree on what is wrong with the Catholic Church but seem to ignore that ’plank’ in their own eye which is the numerous sects all claiming truth and yet not agreeing on what that truth should be. It all just seems a bit unbiblical to me.
So we are hypocrites like the religious people was adressing in scripture?
 
Most Protestants would say that the Church is the body of believers throughout the world and is not to be identified with any one denomination. Eastern Orthodox, of course, have a different view.

Edwin
Then how can they be certain that their particular denomination is preaching the truth?
 
Then how can they be certain that their particular denomination is preaching the truth?
Many would say that they are certain because they can study the Scripture for themselves and see that their church’s teachings line up. However, many Protestants may disagree with some things their denomination or local congregation teaches. Depending on how strict the particular church is, this may or may not be a big deal.

Many of us on the more moderate/liberal side would say that we can’t be absolutely certain about anything really important, and it’s silly to think that we ought to be. It seems pretty clear to me that Catholics can’t be absolutely certain that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Even Aquinas agreed that you can’t prove these things beyond the possibility of doubt. You can just come up with probable reasons, and faith has to take you the rest of the way. So any question beginning “how are you sure that” is probably a bogus question, from my perspective. Now if you ask "why do you believe that . . . " that’s a different question, and one that we can answer.

Edwin
 
Many would say that they are certain because they can study the Scripture for themselves and see that their church’s teachings line up. However, many Protestants may disagree with some things their denomination or local congregation teaches. Depending on how strict the particular church is, this may or may not be a big deal.

Many of us on the more moderate/liberal side would say that we can’t be absolutely certain about anything really important, and it’s silly to think that we ought to be. It seems pretty clear to me that Catholics can’t be absolutely certain that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Even Aquinas agreed that you can’t prove these things beyond the possibility of doubt. You can just come up with probable reasons, and faith has to take you the rest of the way. So any question beginning “how are you sure that” is probably a bogus question, from my perspective. Now if you ask "why do you believe that . . . " that’s a different question, and one that we can answer.

Edwin
I suppose that I could have worded that question differently, however, when one attends a service lead by any of these denominations there is no sense that they are not absolutely certain that what they are teaching is correct. In terms of when a person does not agree with their congregation’s definition on pretty much whatever, why do they think that it is okay to stay in their congregation and yet most that leave the Church will cite very similar reasons for leaving in the first place.?

Catholics can be certain that the Church is what she says she is in so far as what the Church teaches is the truth and that she can show apostolic succession. I would be interested to know where you gathered your information in regards to St. Thomas Aquinas. Nevertheless, St. Thomas Aquinas was neither a pope nor a council and as such can have his opinions on things as a doctor of the Church, but that does not mean that he speaks for the Church.

I mean no disrespect, but I do not believe things such as the Eucharist, the priesthood, the saints, salvation, etc. to be silly matters. I believe them to be very essential matters and I think that the ECF’s would be in agreement. Our faith does take us beyond the point of reason. It does not mean that when something seems beyond us that we should just abandon reason. The two can go together just as the soul and the body go together. Not seperate but joined.
 
Could you clarify because I am not really sure what you are asking? Hypocrites about what exactly?
You said we have planks in our eye, and when Jesus said that He was adressing religious hypocrites, so I am confused as to the symbolism or example you are trying to use.
 
You said we have planks in our eye, and when Jesus said that He was adressing religious hypocrites, so I am confused as to the symbolism or example you are trying to use.
Sorry, yes I am indeed saying that I believe it to be hypocritical.
 
Sorry, yes I am indeed saying that I believe it to be hypocritical.
I thought so. And catholics aren’t hypocrites for saying on this forum all that they assume to be wrong with protestants? It seems as if you are saying that only catholics are right on everything. Is that a fair assessment?
 
I thought so. And catholics aren’t hypocrites for saying on this forum all that they assume to be wrong with protestants? It seems as if you are saying that only catholics are right on everything. Is that a fair assessment?
No it isn’t actually. I believe the Roman Catholic Church to hold the fullness of the truth, but that does not mean that other congregations do not hold some truth. What I was pointing out was the hypocrisy of only being willing to point out perceived faults in the Church and yet ignoring all of the points of controversy amongst the varying sects.
 
I suppose that I could have worded that question differently, however, when one attends a service lead by any of these denominations there is no sense that they are not absolutely certain that what they are teaching is correct.
First of all, what do you mean by “any of these denominations”? The two denominations I’m involved with (my wife and I go to one church on Saturday evening and one on Sunday morning), the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church, are often criticized by other Christians for being too doctrinally vague and uncertain. I suspect that you are generalizing on the basis of a very narrow experience–forgive me if I am wrong.

And how exactly does one give a “sense” that one is not absolutely certain? Given the rarity of absolute certainty about anything, I would not assume that people are absolutely certain unless they claim to be. As Aquinas put it, in questions of faith the will gives certainty to what is (intellectually speaking) a probable opinion. In other words, I have good reasons for believing X, and I perceive it to be good, so I choose to adhere to it firmly. In that sense I am “certain.” I don’t go around saying “well, I think Jesus rose from the dead but of course it may be that He didn’t.” I base my life on the belief that He did. But I can’t give demonstrative reasons for it.
In terms of when a person does not agree with their congregation’s definition on pretty much whatever, why do they think that it is okay to stay in their congregation and yet most that leave the Church will cite very similar reasons for leaving in the first place.?
The Catholic Church makes much broader and firmer doctrinal claims than most Protestant denominations do today. (Confessional Lutherans and Reformed are another matter–to belong to one of those churches one often has to subscribe to very detailed confessions of faith.) If I had to subscribe to every assertion in the 39 Articles in order to be an Episcopalian, I’m not sure I could go on being one. Certainly it would at best be a toss-up whether I agreed more with the Articles or with Catholic doctrine. But as it stands, the only thing I’m asked to subscribe to firmly is the Nicene Creed. So there’s no contradiction in someone leaving the Catholic Church because they can’t in good conscience subscribe to, say, the Immaculate Conception (which the Catholic Church requires all Catholics to believe), and becoming an Anglican even though they still believe in transubstantiation (which is rejected by the 39 Articles but obviously compatible with the Nicene Creed). Of course, most choices about church membership don’t proceed on this basis–nor should they. Church membership is primarily a matter of trust. But the same issue applies. It is in a sense easier to “trust” Protestant denominations precisely because they don’t ask for anywhere near as much trust as the Catholic Church does.
Catholics can be certain that the Church is what she says she is in so far as what the Church teaches is the truth and that she can show apostolic succession.
First of all, if one really wanted to one could raise questions about the early lists of bishops and whether the historic succession is really beyond all possible doubt. But more importantly, the doctrinal significance of that succession is not something you can prove beyond the possibility of doubt(you can give arguments for it, of course). You choose to adhere firmly to the Church, and there is nothing wrong or irrational about that. You have good reasons for doing so. But there remains an element of choice–it is not simply a matter of absolute rational proof.
I would be interested to know where you gathered your information in regards to St. Thomas Aquinas.
From several places where he discusses the matter–when I wrote a paper on this in grad school I used the Commentary on the Sentences and maybe the Disputed Questions on Faith (that would have been a logical source to use, but it was a long time ago and I don’t have the paper in front of me, so I don’t remember for sure), but the Summa Theologiae gives his view in brief:
STII/I:
But this act “to believe,” cleaves firmly to one side, in which respect belief has something in common with science and understanding; yet its knowledge does not attain the perfection of clear sight, wherein it agrees with doubt, suspicion and opinion. . . .
Reply to Objection 3. The intellect of the believer is determined to one object, not by the reason, but by the will, wherefore assent is taken here for an act of the intellect as determined to one object by the will.
Of course Aquinas’s views are not necessarily binding on Catholics. But I am fairly sure that on this particular point (as on many others) Aquinas speaks for the mainstream of Catholic thought. I’m certainly interested in seeing any evidence to the contrary you care to produce.
I mean no disrespect, but I do not believe things such as the Eucharist, the priesthood, the saints, salvation, etc. to be silly matters.
If you don’t “mean disrespect,” then you should not caricature the views of people you are talking to in such an irresponsible way. Obviously I never suggested for a moment that any of these things are “silly matters.” Your suggestion that I did degrades the tone of this conversation considerably.

Edwin
 
First of all, what do you mean by “any of these denominations”? The two denominations I’m involved with (my wife and I go to one church on Saturday evening and one on Sunday morning), the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church, are often criticized by other Christians for being too doctrinally vague and uncertain. I suspect that you are generalizing on the basis of a very narrow experience–forgive me if I am wrong.

And how exactly does one give a “sense” that one is not absolutely certain? Given the rarity of absolute certainty about anything, I would not assume that people are absolutely certain unless they claim to be. As Aquinas put it, in questions of faith the will gives certainty to what is (intellectually speaking) a probable opinion. In other words, I have good reasons for believing X, and I perceive it to be good, so I choose to adhere to it firmly. In that sense I am “certain.” I don’t go around saying “well, I think Jesus rose from the dead but of course it may be that He didn’t.” I base my life on the belief that He did. But I can’t give demonstrative reasons for it.

The Catholic Church makes much broader and firmer doctrinal claims than most Protestant denominations do today. (Confessional Lutherans and Reformed are another matter–to belong to one of those churches one often has to subscribe to very detailed confessions of faith.) If I had to subscribe to every assertion in the 39 Articles in order to be an Episcopalian, I’m not sure I could go on being one. Certainly it would at best be a toss-up whether I agreed more with the Articles or with Catholic doctrine. But as it stands, the only thing I’m asked to subscribe to firmly is the Nicene Creed. So there’s no contradiction in someone leaving the Catholic Church because they can’t in good conscience subscribe to, say, the Immaculate Conception (which the Catholic Church requires all Catholics to believe), and becoming an Anglican even though they still believe in transubstantiation (which is rejected by the 39 Articles but obviously compatible with the Nicene Creed). Of course, most choices about church membership don’t proceed on this basis–nor should they. Church membership is primarily a matter of trust. But the same issue applies. It is in a sense easier to “trust” Protestant denominations precisely because they don’t ask for anywhere near as much trust as the Catholic Church does.

First of all, if one really wanted to one could raise questions about the early lists of bishops and whether the historic succession is really beyond all possible doubt. But more importantly, the doctrinal significance of that succession is not something you can prove beyond the possibility of doubt(you can give arguments for it, of course). You choose to adhere firmly to the Church, and there is nothing wrong or irrational about that. You have good reasons for doing so. But there remains an element of choice–it is not simply a matter of absolute rational proof.

From several places where he discusses the matter–when I wrote a paper on this in grad school I used the Commentary on the Sentences and maybe the Disputed Questions on Faith (that would have been a logical source to use, but it was a long time ago and I don’t have the paper in front of me, so I don’t remember for sure), but the Summa Theologiae gives his view in brief:

Of course Aquinas’s views are not necessarily binding on Catholics. But I am fairly sure that on this particular point (as on many others) Aquinas speaks for the mainstream of Catholic thought. I’m certainly interested in seeing any evidence to the contrary you care to produce.

If you don’t “mean disrespect,” then you should not caricature the views of people you are talking to in such an irresponsible way. Obviously I never suggested for a moment that any of these things are “silly matters.” Your suggestion that I did degrades the tone of this conversation considerably.

Edwin
I was not trying to say that you believe these things to be silly matters. I apologize if that was my tone, but I was stating that I believe them to be essential matters of faith. Everything that you are saying is very logical and well put. I would not disagree with most of it. I am not trying to make a caricature of any one faith. It would be impossible for me to sit here and begin to describe the essence of every denomination. However, my experience with other denominations is in fact not limited. I have had exstensive discussions with numerous ministers, preachers, youth ministers, etc…

Your wording on the absolute certainty portion is bit precarious and I am not sure how to respond.

Your statement about people leaving the Church gets us back to square one. For Catholics, the Church is not some machine that can have parts changed here or there in order to be more accommodating to the members. That is not her function. She is here to preach the truth. It may be seen as demanding from outside, but for her children it is a reassurance of the care Christ took in instituting the Church. That the gates of hell should not prevail against her.

You are also correct in stating that I have a matter of choice in adhering to the faith as described by the Church. It is a faith which has utilized reason to confirm, as best can be, the matters described there in.

My purpse for bringing up this question was to try and understand the rationale behind questioning one rule of faith (Roman Catholic Church) and seemingly ignoring the differences in all the others. Or if not ignoring them at least being willing to tolerate them and not accuse them of distorting this point or that.
 
You are also correct in stating that I have a matter of choice in adhering to the faith as described by the Church. It is a faith which has utilized reason to confirm, as best can be, the matters described there in.
And this is where the argument for infallibility largely breaks down in apologetic discussions. The criticism of the Protestant position on our infallible rule of faith (the Scriptures) is that one must use one’s own fallible human reasoning, understanding, and interpretation in order to believe what the Scriptures teach. Yet, the unspoken fallacy is that Catholics do not have to use their fallible human reasoning, understanding, and interpretation of the Bible, in order to conclude that Rome is really the infallible church founded by Christ.

Ultimately, we’re both in the same position, Catholics just move it back one step.
 
And this is where the argument for infallibility largely breaks down in apologetic discussions. The criticism of the Protestant position on our infallible rule of faith (the Scriptures) is that one must use one’s own fallible human reasoning, understanding, and interpretation in order to believe what the Scriptures teach. Yet, the unspoken fallacy is that Catholics do not have to use their fallible human reasoning, understanding, and interpretation of the Bible, in order to conclude that Rome is really the infallible church founded by Christ.

Ultimately, we’re both in the same position, Catholics just move it back one step.
I think this is well put. Though I would like to think that as a Catholic I do not move “back one step” rather I submit my intellect and reason to a higher authority which is what is described in the scriptures as “taking it to the Church”. It is not that I do not have the right to use intellect. In fact, St. Peter tells us we should “always be ready to give an account for the faith that it is in you.” I understand though, as Edwin put it earlier, that reason only takes me so far and that faith carries me the rest of the way. I have faith in the Church as being instituted by Christ and as held up with scripture.

Again, I do not see the reasoning behind questioning the Catholic faith and ignoring all other differences in Protestant denominations.
 
I think this is well put. Though I would like to think that as a Catholic I do not move “back one step” rather I submit my intellect and reason to a higher authority which is what is described in the scriptures as “taking it to the Church”. It is not that I do not have the right to use intellect. In fact, St. Peter tells us we should “always be ready to give an account for the faith that it is in you.” I understand though, as Edwin put it earlier, that reason only takes me so far and that faith carries me the rest of the way. I have faith in the Church as being instituted by Christ and as held up with scripture.
And that is exactly the same argument that would be put forward by Protestants defending Sola Scriptura.
Again, I do not see the reasoning behind questioning the Catholic faith and ignoring all other differences in Protestant denominations.
Could you clarify exactly what you mean here?
 
And that is exactly the same argument that would be put forward by Protestants defending Sola Scriptura.

Could you clarify exactly what you mean here?
There are denominations that say it is wrong to baptize infants, others disagree.
There are denominations that believe in the tenant OSAS, and others that do not.
There are denominations that believe it is okay from women to be pastors, and others that do not.
There are denominations that believe homosexuality is sinful, and others that do not.

And then if one were to go even deeper into one particular denomination. Let’s say the Lutheran faith here in America, it might be dependent on which particular synod that one belongs to in order to determine whether the above is moral or immoral. Right or wrong.

An example, my father in-law belonged to a Lutheran synod in Utah that started allowing same-sex marriages in their parish. The members of his parish thought it to be wrong and so seperated themselves from the rest of the synod.

It all is a bit confusing…
 
Catholics can’t be absolutely certain that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Even Aquinas agreed that you can’t prove these things beyond the possibility of doubt.
Where in Aquinas is this? I’m curious how he framed that.
 
There are denominations that say it is wrong to baptize infants, others disagree.
There are denominations that believe in the tenant OSAS, and others that do not.
There are denominations that believe it is okay from women to be pastors, and others that do not.
There are denominations that believe homosexuality is sinful, and others that do not.
I agree that there are many denominations that teach heterodox doctrines. I am not here, however, to defend the Calvinists, or the Methodists, or the Baptists. I will freely criticize their positions on these issues but you must remember this is Catholic Answers Forums, not Calvinist Answers Forums. When they state their teachings in a post, if I feel the need, I will question the validity of their teachings.
And then if one were to go even deeper into one particular denomination. Let’s say the Lutheran faith here in America, it might be dependent on which particular synod that one belongs to in order to determine whether the above is moral or immoral. Right or wrong.
An example, my father in-law belonged to a Lutheran synod in Utah that started allowing same-sex marriages in their parish. The members of his parish thought it to be wrong and so seperated themselves from the rest of the synod.
It all is a bit confusing…
Because those Synods have departed from the teachings of the Lutheran confessions of faith on these very issues. The denomination to which you refer is no more Lutheran than rogue Catholics who ordain women priests are faithful adherents of Roman doctrine.
 
I agree that there are many denominations that teach heterodox doctrines. I am not here, however, to defend the Calvinists, or the Methodists, or the Baptists. I will freely criticize their positions on these issues but you must remember this is Catholic Answers Forums, not Calvinist Answers Forums. When they state their teachings in a post, if I feel the need, I will question the validity of their teachings.

You are right that this is Catholic Answers forum. However, this section is the non-Catholic religion section and I believe it is okay to ask the question that I did. I still do not think it has been answered as of yet.

Because those Synods have departed from the teachings of the Lutheran confessions of faith on these very issues. The denomination to which you refer is no more Lutheran than rogue Catholics who ordain women priests are faithful adherents of Roman doctrine.
I would argue that the difference between rogue ‘Catholics’ and the ‘Lutherans’ you are referring to is that when I walk into a Mass and see a woman up their instead of a man I would automatically know something is wrong. In the case of the Lutheran synod in Utah, my father in-law’s parish had been in that synod since the beginning of the parish. Thirty years or so, if I am not mistaken. At what point is the average parishoner supposed to know if the parish is still Lutheran? And isn’t there a problem in any parish having to question it in the first place?
 
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