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believers
Guest
Personally, I believe in paying for the fire insurance with love and obedience to God’s Word.
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water
Guest
I just read your post today and would like to say congratulations and praise be to God! Welcome home! :harp:
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believers
Guest
When you say “welcome home”, does that mean you’re saying he’s saved?
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geezerbob
Guest
And the second is like unto it - love your neighbor as yourself. That usually involves some work. Is obedience to the first one sufficient or do we have to obey both? Do we really have to do all those things that Jesus said in the parable of the sheep and the goats?
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xmydreamsfadex
Guest
no. they are saying welcome to the Catholic Church. the home of the Christian faith.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
What other salvation than Christ’s Cross is there ? Hint: none at all. As for our sins not being held against us, of course they aren’t - as St.Paul says. And St.John supports him (1.John 1.9)
If Christ is not our Saviour, we might as well destroy ourselves; because we can’t redeem ourselves. If we have no atonement with God through His Blood, then we are left to do the impossible - IOW, to save ourselves.It is not the fault of Pentecostals if Catholics “turn the truth of God into a lie” by mistaking the Gospel of redemption through the Blood into Christ for an anti-Gospel of licentiousness & unbelief. The Gospel is neither - but it is a Gospel of salvation, which does not rely on human power, but on grace & grace alone, from start to finish.
The Pharisees & scribes said of Christ’s forgiveness of sins that it was blasphemous. It was St. Peter who said that Christians were sharers in the Divine Nature - another blasphemy. In some sense, the Gospel is blasphemous.
How is the Death of Christ “undermined” by bearing fruit in the salvation of those He came to save - whom He had elected before the foundation of the world to be His ? That’s like complaining that an apple-tree is undermined by bearing apples.I believe it anyway. What I don’t believe is the anti-Gospel that does not allow Christ to be a Saviour, nor His Crucifixion to be the decisive victory over sin, death, and the devil; nor the lie that makes man His own Redeemer & Saviour, for that is just another form of unbelief. Just as I don’t believe in Perfectionism.
“Professing with the mouth” is Pauline - to interpret it as all one need do, is a distortion; because if faith is genuine, it bears fruit: good fruit.
What man believes that Christ need not be loved ? I’ve never heard anything so silly. It would certainly surprise Arminians (who emphasise “accept[ing] Christ”).If God is greater & more faithful than sinful man whom He graciously saves, then of course.
- Maybe God is too weak to save.
- Maybe He is strong enough to begin to save, but is wearied by the effort, so gives up.
- Maybe man is more faithful to his word & his promises than God.
- Maybe we are saved not by grace, but by works.
- Maybe God is non-existent.
- Maybe the Bible, which speaks of “the salvation of God” is a load of garbage.
If these seven possibilities are false, then God is to be trusted though every man be a liar. According to the Word of God - God is willing & able to save sinners
- is mighty to save
- saves by grace & not by dead works
- is called Faithful & True
- does not wear out
- has sworn by Himself, & cannot be unfaithful
- & so on - much more could be said
The end of Romans 8 makes as clear as anything could that “nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus”. If we do not believe this, that means only that we are guilty of unbelief, & are implying that God is a liar.
Of course those who accept Christ in faith have to obey Him in faith - I think you’re confusing Antinomianism, “cheap grace”, & Eternal Security.
BTW - I’m sure God is well able to protect Himself. What we think of Him is not going to make Him any less a God of Grace & Righteousness
D
deb1
Guest
Catholics, despite disagreeing with some Protestant doctrines, accept Protestants as Christians. So, if he came from a Protestant background, he was already Christian and thus is being welcomed into the Catholic Church.
I was a Protestant before I joined the Catholic Church. I’ve been a Christian since I was thirty, I only joined The Church two years ago.
I hope that makes sense.
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deb1
Guest
I understand why many Protestants on this forum might get offended to read of the types of beliefs that the OP speaks about. I don’t think that most Protestants that come to this board believe in this extreme form of OSAS.
Yet, honestly, here in the southern US, this is exactly what a large number of people do believe.
My sil’s church had a magician put on a little show for the kids. He explained that he was an illusionist and did not do magic. Then he gave little speech afterwards about salvation. I was not bothered by this, of course not, but he insisted to the kids that once you are saved, “God can not see your sins.” He brought out a piece of paper, with pictures of people doing things wrong and he covered the individual pictures of people doing bad things. Then he told the kids that just like they could no longer see the kids doing wrong in the drawings, God could not see their sins once they were saved.
I don’t think that I have ever heard any Protestant on this board make that claim, nor was I taught it in my former Baptist church.
I’ve also come across people, who when discussing a relative who is apparently no longer a Christian and has even, in some cases, joined other religions, insist that their relatives are still Christians because they were saved at camp as a child. Honestly, I’ve been told this more then once.
Do I think that the majority of Protestants in the world hold these veiws. NO. Do I think that a large number of Protestants here in the south do. Yes.
At least when I debate many Protestants on this board, I understand why they believe what they believe and I can respect their reasoning. Some Protestants in the south just make me sad and worried for them.
Yet, honestly, here in the southern US, this is exactly what a large number of people do believe.
My sil’s church had a magician put on a little show for the kids. He explained that he was an illusionist and did not do magic. Then he gave little speech afterwards about salvation. I was not bothered by this, of course not, but he insisted to the kids that once you are saved, “God can not see your sins.” He brought out a piece of paper, with pictures of people doing things wrong and he covered the individual pictures of people doing bad things. Then he told the kids that just like they could no longer see the kids doing wrong in the drawings, God could not see their sins once they were saved.
I don’t think that I have ever heard any Protestant on this board make that claim, nor was I taught it in my former Baptist church.
I’ve also come across people, who when discussing a relative who is apparently no longer a Christian and has even, in some cases, joined other religions, insist that their relatives are still Christians because they were saved at camp as a child. Honestly, I’ve been told this more then once.
Do I think that the majority of Protestants in the world hold these veiws. NO. Do I think that a large number of Protestants here in the south do. Yes.
At least when I debate many Protestants on this board, I understand why they believe what they believe and I can respect their reasoning. Some Protestants in the south just make me sad and worried for them.
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The_Truthinator
Guest
One is compelled by love of the Savior to accept him, however. Many Protestants will bring this up, mind you. My old Sunday school teacher (a really amazing guy) reiterated this point about how just having the “fire insurance” didn’t leave us free to disobey the Will of Christ and forget that we as Christians are now his … Now, granted, I was raised in a Baptist church (after being saved, my counselor once told me if I went out and shot somebody the next day, I’d still be good; I liked the sound of this, and it comforted me deeply in my first little bit of being a Christ Follower, yet in the back of my mind I remember thinking, “Why on earth would a Christian do THAT?”), but I think it’s pretty much universally agreed upon in Yeshua’s Church that surrendering our lives means casting aside our selfish ambitions and daily carrying our crosses … Whether or not one believes in co-operate grace, that’s a different story.
Matthew 18:23 to me speaks more of eternal damnation than a temporary cleansing. After all, Yeshua in the parable is dealing with the concept of not forgiving, and therefore, not being forgiven yourself. One who is not forgiven is in a state of sin—a damnable state. In such a case, “paying the last penny” would be an eternal process. Matthew 12:32 is taken, also, out of context, in that it simply states that there is no forgiveness, ever, for one who has rejected the Spirit. First Corinthians 3:13—there you might just have a Purgatory passage, but mind the fact that this text deals with the works being tested more than the believer.
Philippians 2:12 in all likelihood refers to the working out of salvation via good deeds, but both interpretations are valid. James 2:12 is a great reminder that God shall hold us accountable but not a passage to be thrown around lightly. Matthew 18:23 is a reiteration. Matthew 25:31-46, one of my favorites!
The commandments give life if we can adhere to them perfectly. We cannot. Hence, the need for a Savior.
I am Protestant, and I do not believe in OSAS. HOWEVER!!! I do note the fact that many who also realize that this teaching in un-Scriptural all too often share a common mistake: They have the tendency to overlook God’s grace in light of his severity.
P.S. I am in the south, too. My theology is an odd mix of Catholicism (really, more Eastern Orthodox), Baptist and Lutheran theology, and a small hint of Sophiology. I, too, came to the realization that my potentially once-saved sibling was no longer a member of the Body of Christ (had she ever been) after renouncing her faith, despite the fact that she’d been baptised (or “got wet,” one of the other) and all that stuff … Even when I believed in OSAS, I knew deep down she wasn’t a Christian by any means at this point … sort of a sad wake-up call.
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Zooey
Guest
This is the same thing that I hear, Deb, and it frightens me, whenI think of all the little children who are being taught this…I hope & pray that all may be well with them…
I find the Catholic teaching on invincible ignorance to be a comfort to me…I first heard of it, from my wonderful (Free Methodist) grandmother…But then, one of her dearest friends was a devout Irish Catholic; for all I know, they may have discussed this very think…She would say to me, “We are judged according to the light that we have”…and then add: "and we have the Light of the world!! "
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
You understand that it is bad theology. And it is not the theology that is supposed to be taught. However, it is sometimes the theology that is caught. Please make an effort to distinguish between the two, taught vs. caught theology.
I have many of the same problems with Catholicism that you are having with non-Catholic Christianity. I hear Catholics like my sister-in-law tell her kids that they as long as they were baptized that God will accept them when they come to heaven. She tries to teach that they shouldn’t do bad things, but then turns right around to tell them that if they do, it’s OK, they have already been accepted by God in their baptism.
The thing is, she isn’t alone in that point of view. I can’t tell you how many Catholics I know that look at baptism as a ticket to heaven. So many do so, that I know the local priests is about in fits over non-practicising Catholics, even a worse problem than the non-attending Methodist at my church. So, really, I don’t see much difference between this view of Catholic baptism, and the Baptist’s view of “born-again” salvation that you are protesting against.
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LutheranDK
Guest
Just a small comment:
The Scripture actually teaches that baptism is “a ticket to heaven” - that is as long as you hold on to the faith in which you were baptized, namely the Christian faith.
So, for instance, babies that are baptised and then die WILL go to paradise, while those who are not will not. This is my view, which I base on Scripture.
So you are both right and wrong: Baptism does not save the infidel, but it is a “ticket” to paradise; it is the way into the Kingdom of God.
In Christ
L
LutheranDK
Guest
I can tell you were this truth came from - it came from Scripture!
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast .”
-Eph 2:8-9
Romans 4:13-22
and the list goes on and on and on and on, although Eph 2:8-9 would itself have been sufficient.
But in a way, you are right though. There is ONE thing that one can do to ensure damnation: Rejecting God - saying:
“I’m good enough in my own right - I don’t need God or Jesus”
That is one deed that will damn you, but when you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, no power of hell, no scheme of man can ever pluck you from his hand (as one of my favorite songs say).
So in short, the answer to your question is this: It came from the Word of God! If the word of God doesn’t conform to the teachings of the catholic church (and I believe that there are NUMEROUS examples of this), it is the catholic church that is erring.
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Harpazo
Guest
Yes, but the Newsboys aren’t in the Bible
While the song is a “feel good” one, it says other people can’t take us away from God, but it doesn’t say we can’t. By sinning and not repenting, THAT is rejecting God.
If you truly study Catholic teaching from Catholic sources, you’ll see that Catholic teaching and the Bible compliment each other. After all, the Catholic Church compiled the Bible and preserved it.
In Pax Christi
Andrew
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mozart-250
Guest
You are aware that Pentecostal Christians are not usually eternal security/OSAS.
So probably he meant this was your status immediately after accepting Christ. He probably did not mean to address the issue of how days 2 to end of life worked.
If that is his understanding, I do agree with this with the understanding that accepting Christ (although “Christianese language” to some extent), is Biblically based on John 1:12.
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byers
Guest
Harparzo…I believe one other poster alluded to this same thing that i have noticed. This ‘osas’ causes spiritual growth to completely stop…so that 10, 20 or more years down the road they are at the same spiritual level as when they started and by that time many have already fallen away in heart if not actually physically. Once you are ‘saved’ why bother to grow in virtue? And since you have all you need…why pursue truth…you’ve already got it all…this so-called doctrine can only be demonic. It keeps you from growing in holiness and from seeking the fullness of truth.
It’s pretend christianity.
It’s pretend christianity.
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